Chin up ROM: -Elbows start next to your head and end up next to your rib cage
-Lats do this
Row ROM: -Elbows start in front of your body (Mid chin up ROM) and end up behind the body
-Lats do the first half, posterior delts, rhomboids, Mid&Lower traps do the second half
Chin ups: Up → Down
Rows: Front → Back ( lats bring elbows down, upper back pulls them back)
Also, the wider your grip is on rows, the less lat involvement and more upper back involvement, since the lats dont bring the elbows down.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I have never tried rack chins before, and though I know a lot of folks in the DC crowd are big on them, I can’t understand mechnically what would make them a better (or even different) option than weighted chins. Maybe they would be better trained unilaterally? That at least seems like something that would be harder to replicate without the rack set up.[/quote]
I have never done them either but here’s my take on why people use them.
The lats have a few origins but when we are talking about ‘rack chins’ we are interested in the thoracolumbar fascia and iliac crest as these sites are in a different orientation than they would otherwise be when doing a conventional chin or pull up. From the various videos of rack chins you’ll notice that the pelvis is in anterior pelvic tilt, which is accentuated at the bottom of the movement. The hip area also moves in an arc from top to bottom meaning the pelvis is slightly further ahead in the bottom position. All this contributes to a greater lat stretch at the bottom.
Try doing pull ups with your abbs contracted and your toes pointed just out in front of you and then in the bottom position bring your head through your arms so your ears are in line with your arms, then feel that stretch kick in! Rack chins emphasise this stretch because of the hip orientation at the bottom portion of the movement.
[/quote]
The beauty of rack chins is all in the set up and how it FORCES you to be in a certain position at the bottom (stretch) position.
Facts:
Lats insert onto upper part of arm.
You can’t flare your lats without bringing your elbows in front of your body.
Due to leg elevation during rack chins, it forces you to be in LAT FLARE at bottom.
Due to leg stabilization your torso does not hit every angle between 0 ~> 90 degrees like during a set of pull ups.
[quote]Waittz wrote:
Ryan, you ever try Pendlay Rows?
For you guys saying you dont think rows contributed to width as much as chins/pulldowns(or in general), here is a question that I ask seriously. Back Width is from the latissimus dorsi while your upper back musculature is really made up of several muscles(rombiods, traps etc). So for those saying they get more growth/width from chins/pulldowns than rows, are you saying that rows do not simulate the Lats for growth, or that chins/pulldowns yeild more lat growth or that your lats can grow sideways and front to back(‘thickness’)? This is what I am not understanding. [/quote]
I believe it all contributes to width. Even more thickness oriented movements still give width imo. Maybe just not as quickly as others.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I have never tried rack chins before, and though I know a lot of folks in the DC crowd are big on them, I can’t understand mechnically what would make them a better (or even different) option than weighted chins. Maybe they would be better trained unilaterally? That at least seems like something that would be harder to replicate without the rack set up.[/quote]
I have never done them either but here’s my take on why people use them.
The lats have a few origins but when we are talking about ‘rack chins’ we are interested in the thoracolumbar fascia and iliac crest as these sites are in a different orientation than they would otherwise be when doing a conventional chin or pull up. From the various videos of rack chins you’ll notice that the pelvis is in anterior pelvic tilt, which is accentuated at the bottom of the movement. The hip area also moves in an arc from top to bottom meaning the pelvis is slightly further ahead in the bottom position. All this contributes to a greater lat stretch at the bottom.
Try doing pull ups with your abbs contracted and your toes pointed just out in front of you and then in the bottom position bring your head through your arms so your ears are in line with your arms, then feel that stretch kick in! Rack chins emphasise this stretch because of the hip orientation at the bottom portion of the movement.
[/quote]
The beauty of rack chins is all in the set up and how it FORCES you to be in a certain position at the bottom (stretch) position.
Facts:
Lats insert onto upper part of arm.
You can’t flare your lats without bringing your elbows in front of your body.
Due to leg elevation during rack chins, it forces you to be in LAT FLARE at bottom.
Due to leg stabilization your torso does not hit every angle between 0 ~> 90 degrees like during a set of pull ups.[/quote]
I should of said POSTERIOR pelvic tilt! Lack of sleep-no brain. Nice explanation GW
If you can do a lat flare pose, you can figure out how to get your lats involved when you chin or row. Visualize flaring your lats on each rep. I also see a lot of people crunching with thoracic flexion at the end of the rep when they are pulling. That doesn’t get the most out of the exercise.
Variety helps. I don’t just think of vertical pull and horizontal pull. vertical pulling can be done with a narrow grip where the arms move more in the saggital plane as well as wide grip with the movement mainly in the frontal plane. Same with rows.
Then about form…Form doesn’t have to be super, super strict, but if what someone does is a momentum pull with the brunt of the force coming from hip extension, and then throwing the body up to touch the bar, you’re not getting the most of the exercise. brief pauses help. pause and flare the shit out of the lats.
We have one of those at my Gold’s in Japan. I’ll have to incorporate them in my new workout. I will say you can do similar by doing oldschool pullovers with a dumbell. You won’t feel it during the workout, but the next few days you sure will. Stabilizers for the win.
[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
We have one of those at my Gold’s in Japan. I’ll have to incorporate them in my new workout. I will say you can do similar by doing oldschool pullovers with a dumbell. You won’t feel it during the workout, but the next few days you sure will. Stabilizers for the win.[/quote]
I do love some DB pullovers but in my experience, the machine actually wins on this one, because there are part of the ROM where the tension comes off the lats with the DB. Not true in the machine.
[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
We have one of those at my Gold’s in Japan. I’ll have to incorporate them in my new workout. I will say you can do similar by doing oldschool pullovers with a dumbell. You won’t feel it during the workout, but the next few days you sure will. Stabilizers for the win.[/quote]
I do love some DB pullovers but in my experience, the machine actually wins on this one, because there are part of the ROM where the tension comes off the lats with the DB. Not true in the machine.
[/quote]
That’s the exact reason I like many machine/cable movements
Just saying there are always options if you don’t have the machine. I believe pullovers were a mainstay of some of the old bodybuilders, somehow they fell off the mainstream acceptable exercise list.
I would recommend wide grip pull ups, dont do them weighted and make sure you get full range of motion (non of this partial/swinging sh#t that i see so many guys doing…)
With pull ups quality is far more important than quantity, pull right up, contract for 2-5sec then lower yourself slowly… that constant tension is what will get you
Here is a video of the back workout i put together a while ago, heaps of pull ups, different grips etc. Really helped my width
