Hello T-Nation.
I have been lifting for around 16 months and have been doing 5/3/1 for the last 9.
My squat has always been very slow to progress. Before starting 5/3/1 my squat PR was 92.5kg 6/6/5 at a bodyweight of 75kg
Currently, my best squat performances have been 107.5kg 1x2 and 100kg 1x5 at a bodyweight of 86kg
For comparison, my bench as gone from 70kg 3x5 @75kg to 85kg 1x5 and 77.5 1x10
And my deadlift has gone from 1x5 117.5kg to 1x5 130kg and 1x10 125kg and 1x1 145kg.
I have had to reset my squat three times since starting the program, and haven’t had to reset any other lifts apart from OHP (once).
When I started 531 I even stalled after 3 cycles when I had worked up to weight I was previously using.
On heavy reps it seems like I lose all explosiveness and IF I manage the lift it goes up VERY slow.
When in the hole it seems like there is nowhere to go, and I always fail either in the hole or at around parallel.
This video is a few months old and the weight is not very high, but heavy squats look similiar to the last rep.
Im currently doing a 4x a week BBB 5x5 variant with
MO: Sq 531 Incline bench BBB /Assistance: Pullups and dips
TUE: OHP 531 DL BBB /No assistance
THUR DL 531 Behind the neck press BBB /Assistance Pullups/Dips
FRI or SAT BP 531 Front squat BBB /Assistance: Backextension and Abs
Truth be told its very disheartening to miss your required reps and then having to work back up 3 cycles when you cant even squat 2 plates without psyching yourself up.
I dont really believe my lack of progress is nutrition related, as I have put on a good amount of upper body mass while still remaining lean.
I’m also now using shoes with a flat sole, so I dont believe those are the problem either.
531 is obviously a program that works, and my other lifts are still progressing smoothly, but I get the feeling its just not getting me anywhere for squats.
Should I drop the weight massively and squat 4x a week? Should I just stick to the program and shut the hell up?
At this point I would be willing to do 1 legged squats on a bosu ball if it would put weight on my squat.
It sucks benching more than you squat, and while I’m thrilled for strength gains across the board everywhere else, it really is disheartening to have such a bad squat. Esp with how important the lift is for performance, mass, everything. I feel like I’ve tried a lot of things (paused squats, 1-1/4 squats, narrow stance, wide stance, toes in/out, high/low bar, etc). I had no problem making great progress on front squats (they feel way more natural to me), but as soon as I go back to back squats, I’m stuck in the same old plateau around 185-225.
Front squat form is great, back squats with any real weight start to lose explosiveness and lead my hips/knees to start drifting. It’s so frustrating.
Sorry I don’t have any advice, as I’m clearly not qualified to give you any on this, but wanted to let you know you’re not alone haha.
It sucks benching more than you squat, and while I’m thrilled for strength gains across the board everywhere else, it really is disheartening to have such a bad squat. Esp with how important the lift is for performance, mass, everything. I feel like I’ve tried a lot of things (paused squats, 1-1/4 squats, narrow stance, wide stance, toes in/out, high/low bar, etc). I had no problem making great progress on front squats (they feel way more natural to me), but as soon as I go back to back squats, I’m stuck in the same old plateau around 185-225.
Front squat form is great, back squats with any real weight start to lose explosiveness and lead my hips/knees to start drifting. It’s so frustrating.
Sorry I don’t have any advice, as I’m clearly not qualified to give you any on this, but wanted to let you know you’re not alone haha.[/quote]
Haha well It does feel better knowing I’m not alone. And yea Ive only been doing front squats for a few sessions and I’ve been adding weight each time and it feels like there is still quite a bit to squeeze out. So were similiar there aswell lol.
I’d try increasing weekly volume. Either more volume on squat day… or just squat 2-3 days a week. Or both.
You may not be getting enough volume to grow. One approach: After you do your work sets, you could drop to 70% of that, do a few reps (3 is a good number), add 5 lbs, do more reps. Repeat until you can’t get 3 good reps. Many other options though.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’d try increasing weekly volume. Either more volume on squat day… or just squat 2-3 days a week. Or both.
You may not be getting enough volume to grow. One approach: After you do your work sets, you could drop to 70% of that, do a few reps (3 is a good number), add 5 lbs, do more reps. Repeat until you can’t get 3 good reps. Many other options though.
Nothing definitive, just something to consider.[/quote]
Thanks for the suggestions. I’ve actually been squatting 4x a week (3 BS 1 FS)@ 85% of my training max
for the last 3 weeks, I just didnt want to include that in my original post because I’ve been feeling it in my lower back the last few days so im not sure if I could keep up it like that.
Although 85% is pretty high compared to what you recommended so It might work better if I work with a lower weight.
Your numbers for the squat do not seem too out of line with your other lifts, percentage-wise. You said you went from back squatting 1X/week to 3X/week. It is not surprising your lower back is bothering you. When increasing volume like this it is ususlly best to do it slowly to see how your body responds.
Try changing one of your assistance squat sessions to paused squats - go down in the hole and hold tight for 2-3 seconds before exploding up. This should help your performance out of the hole. You will need to go lighter - 70% is a good place to start.
You may have simply picked a working max that was too heavy to start for the squat. The rest of your lifts are just catching up.
For me your numbers seem reasonably proportionate, so I think you might be overthinking the squat.
And why don’t you stick to front squats for a few months and then test the squat to see if it experienced any change?
Is there a particular reason you are squatting high bar?
EDIT: And before you change anything else, squat without shoes or get some Chuck Taylors. Running shoes will make you weaker in the squat, not stronger.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Is there a particular reason you are squatting high bar?
EDIT: And before you change anything else, squat without shoes or get some Chuck Taylors. Running shoes will make you weaker in the squat, not stronger.[/quote]
I think I pointed this out in my post but I’m not squatting with running shoes anymore.
I’m using shoes with a flat soles and considered buying some olympic lifting shoes but was kind of turned of by the high price.
And there is no particular reason I’m squatting high bar, It just felt like the most obvious place to put the bar for me.
Do you believe I would benefit from trying low-bar squatting?
[quote]Martimroll94 wrote:
For me your numbers seem reasonably proportionate, so I think you might be overthinking the squat.
And why don’t you stick to front squats for a few months and then test the squat to see if it experienced any change?[/quote]
Well I was thinking my squat is lacking also because my effort on my hardest squat sets is considerably higher than on my DL’s and Bench sets.
Hitting a PR would always mean something close to a 9 or even a 10 on the RPE scale, while I dont think the DL sets have been higher than a 8-9.
Also when I look at strength standards I see for example to be considered “strong” (strong,very strong,elite and pro classes) in the 181 class raw I would need to squat 310, bench 205 and deadlift 335.
I did 90kgs for a single a few months ago so I’m fairly certain I could hit 205 with some rest.
The 145kg dl was hard, but 335 is 152kg and I think I could reasonably hit that with some rest in a month or 2.
A 140kg squat however would most certainly immediately staple me to the floor right now and in the near future.
I’m in the same place, @170 i have a 210 bench, 375 dl but my squat is only at 255, so our numbers are pretty similar. Squat is my weakest lift but i decided i wouldn’t worry too much about it.
So we have the same problems, i’ll return in a few months to see your improvement
Hmm, so maybe I’m not that far off. I’m just used to seeing the big totals of elite/geared lifters and thinking it will transfer down to me.
I’m currently ~185 and my 3RMs are 215 Bench, 355 Dead, and 205 (Front) Squat. Back squat is probably around the same, though I’ve not tested anything.
I totally agree though, it feels like I see stars way more often on heavy squats than DL’s or bench, even with lighter weights. I’m afraid it’s some fundamental form flaw that I have, or something I’m doing wrong, but I guess the weights are kind of on par. I guess I should just not stress it, especially since front squats seem to feel better and work my quads better, but it’s almost a pride thing for me. Especially seeing so many people quarter-squatting 3 plates…
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Is there a particular reason you are squatting high bar?
EDIT: And before you change anything else, squat without shoes or get some Chuck Taylors. Running shoes will make you weaker in the squat, not stronger.[/quote]
I think I pointed this out in my post but I’m not squatting with running shoes anymore.
I’m using shoes with a flat soles and considered buying some olympic lifting shoes but was kind of turned of by the high price.
And there is no particular reason I’m squatting high bar, It just felt like the most obvious place to put the bar for me.
Do you believe I would benefit from trying low-bar squatting?[/quote]
I think it is worth giving a try at this point. I found way more success by squatting low bar versus high bar.
My personal experience is that it took me a couple years to really hit a groove on squats. I’ve really only done the basic 5/3/1, so maybe the lack of volume is part of the reason it took so long (I’ve never done any of the other higher volume squat routines), and I think I have better leverages for deadlifts than anything else (long limbs, short torso). But after constantly researching form and trying to figure out why I was getting injured/not progressing on squatting, I think I finally found the answer (for me at least).
First, I no longer touch a weight until after I perform 15 minutes of self myofascial release, foam rolling, and mobility work. I find that I no longer need special shoes with a heel lift to hit depth, and I feel more comfortable and confident in the hole than I ever did before. Defranco’s Agile 8 is a popular warm-up routine highly recommended on this site. I personally follow Jordan Syatt’s lower body warm-up routine on lower body days and his upper body routine on the others. I have been injury free for the longest stretch ever (and I REALLY push my limits in the gym). By the way, I’m nearly 43 and definitely not as mobile as you from your vid, but I still swear by this stuff.
Next, it appears you are a little loose in your setup (shifting around, even your feet seem to be slightly staggered). I find that treating every set and every rep like it is a max lift helps to develop consistency. The lighter the weight, the more explosively I lift it, but the setup and technique is the same (slight form breakdown is acceptable on max lifts, but you get the idea). Tighten things up - brace the core.
Finally, I think bar placement is a matter of personal preference, mobility, and/or goals. I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with squatting high bar like you do. Because my mobility isn’t quite at the level of yours, I am experimenting with a slightly lower bar position (and have the scars on my back to prove it :)) with a tad more forward lean and am setting new PRs. But that is my personal situation (and T3hPwnisher knows this stuff more than me as well).
I think giving it some time while tweaking your preparation, setup, and form along with consistency will work for you in the long run. The squat was the most difficult lift for me, but now it seems I have hit my stride. It is a complex lift - keep learning and practicing it.
@Souldozer:
Thanks for your reply. I agree my setup could be tighter.
I’ve tried the Defranco Agile 8 before and it seemed to have at least a short term effect on my mobility when I did it. @T3hpwnisher:
Alright, I’ll definitely give low-bar a shot. Maybe low-bar suits me better as well.
The one thing Im concerned about is how I should program my squats into my routine without affecting my other lifts ( mostly my deadlift).
How does something like this sound?
MO squat 531 (optional FSL) bench BBB
TUE squat 55/65/75% OHP 531 DL BBB
THUR squat 55/65/75% DL 531 OHP BBB
FRI bench 531 front squat BBB
I don’t see where your ratios are that bad but imo a stronger squat usually = a stronger lifter so I see no harm in working at improving it. The biggest thing I’ve noticed is frequency. Use varying intensity and high frequency to get a lot of practice with your form. Next i’d say to treat every rep like its a max. Limping your way through your warm up reps leaves you feeling weak and mentally unprepared for your heavier sets, explode on your warm up reps to build confidence.
Breathing, make sure to take a very deep breathe before the decent, this will help you stay tight, and focus on driving your elbows under the bar and your head back in order to keep your chest up and open to keep your from rounding over.
The deadlift has never been a great lift for me so perhaps you can take this with a grain of salt but I did Smolov’s a year ago and had tremendous results on my squat and was pleasantly surprised to see that having not deadlifted in 3 months my deadlift actually went up 20lbs. If I were you and I were seriously concerned with fixing your squat try something like this.
Mon Squat 5/3/1 followed by boring but big
Tues Bench 5/3/1
Wed Squat Dynamic effort 65% for 12 to 15 sets of 2 Focus on explosion
Thurs off
Fri Overhead Press 5/3/1
Sat 10 sets of 3 at 85%
I was having some low bar back squatting issues a few months ago. I just switched to front squats for a few months. It helped my upper back stability a ton among other things. Depending on your goals, that could be an option.
[quote]Nab wrote:
The one thing Im concerned about is how I should program my squats into my routine without affecting my other lifts ( mostly my deadlift).
[/quote]
Just don’t squat heavy (and conversely don’t deadlift heavy) the day before your heavy deadlift/squat day.
Sorry for the late update but my internet was broken.
So I’ve been doing the 3 BS 1 FS setup with 55-65-75 paused squats on the non 531/BBB days and the soreness is still there a little but it’s goes away much quicker than before.
In hindsight I could have seen that coming because I’ve usually never been sore and even if I am I adapt very quickly.
Hit a PR at 97.5kg for 6 reps with reasonable power out of the hole so from the limited time I’ve been squatting 4x a week it seems to be working.
Front squatting has been going very well and im at 75kg 5x5 atm, and I’ve been adding 5 lbs every week save for this one.
Only thing that might present a slight problem would be that might deadlift sessions have been shitty lately, just slightly surpassing the minimum reps even though Im on my second cycle after going back 3 with the 5-3 method.
I believe that is more related to some recent setup changes than coming from the frequent squatting though, so I’ll give it some more time before I reevaluate my approach.
Back about 15kg off your squats, squat 3x a week and add 2.5kg every session. do 5x5. That is basically strong lifts I have been on it for a couple of weeks and my quads have ballooned up and they are much stronger. Before this I was doing a bro split squatting 2x a week it was pretty meh.