'A High Protein Diet...May Make You Fatter.' (HuffPo)

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]BiP wrote:
ZEB wrote:
But again, how do you know what the upper limit is?

I don’t. But I have no reason to assume that there is one either,[/quote]

Hey thanks that says it all right there. I won’t waste anymore of your time, or mine (a few years ago I would have taken this to 20 pages). [/quote]
I love it how you completely decided to ignore the rest of my post, which deals with your arguments one by one.

[quote]
I’ll end the way I came in this thread. I feel that you can over consume everything from water to vitamins and everything in between. Apparently you don’t feel that there’s an upper limit to protein. Ooookay, no problem. We have our biases and arguing over the Internet isn’t going to change either of us. [/quote]
You can’t compare vitamins to protein in this case. Overdosing of vitamins is a scientific fact. While there is some argument over the specific safety limits for various vitamins there is no doubt that certain high levels of certain vitamins produce undesirable effects. This is not the case with protein.

Hopefully in 40 years (if TNation is still around) we will be able to compare who is in better health.

Same to you

B.

[quote]nobodyreal wrote:
To the UK dude, yes research is being done in longevity and nutritional factors like protein in-take are being examined.[/quote]

I assume I am the “UK dude”?
I would love to read some of that research - as you can see above I did link to some research I found myself, showing that high protein intake is safe, although that particular research concentrated on kidney health, which is one of the most common concerns in high protein diets. So if you have any research to back up your claims please link to it. Not trying to be a smartass here - I actually want to read it and compare.

This just made my day. So, you can estimate my BF% by looking at a picture that is 4 years old, shows only my head, and even that is covered by a hat, sunglasses and a beard? Amazing. If I hold up a shoe can you estimate my BF% even more precisely?
Also, I’m not your “brah”.

B.

BiP, I can’t believe you are putting so much effort into responding the that ignoramus. You are much too kind :slight_smile:

And if it helps (if you wish to research on your own), I have heard a lot about protein and aging in regards to IGF-1, but that seems to just be extrapolating from animal studies and attempting to use epidemiological studies loosely to validate it in humans. (Edit: The vegan agenda is also prevalent in this area, as they as a population seem to have lower IGF-1 and use this fact as validation for health)

BiP, you come off as a know it all homo from your posts and a fatty from your pic. People won’t debate with you because the two combined send the message of ‘youtube’ comment section debater, and figure it isn’t worth the effort.

Your post makes it sound like you have information or knowledge when you say, “no evidence”, “no studies”, when you say that protein assimilation and protein over-consumption hasn’t been studied, you begin to look more and more like a YT commentator. I’m not digging up the studies or responding to your sloppy ‘block text’ responses, you are the one who said there hasn’t been studies done on the subject.

Anyways, continue to defend your reputation here, it’s a forum dude. Just admit ignorance when you are ignorant and don’t try to score browny points with the older posters by posting retarded comments like you just did. The study of how carbs interact with the body, fats, protein, is not new. I mentioned some things in my post that should give you some things to read-up on(IGF-1, CRP, etc).

Something else to think on: if you’re consuming massive protein you are also consuming massive calories. Increasd calories = decreased melatonin production(calorie restriction + melatonin production in google). Melatonin is an effecient free radical scavenger and anti-oxidant, and I have heard that decreased melatonin production is the reason for decreased DHEA production.

(Oxygen radical detoxification processes during aging: the functional importance of melatonin.
Reiter RJ.

Department of Cellular and Structural Biology, University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio 78284-7762, USA.)

That contains some of this about the role of melatonin in aging, it’s importance. I don’t have the information anymore on melatonin production and calorie restriction, but you should be able to find it easily. About the potential anti-aging benefits of DHEA, that also can be found on the web.

To the thread not to the British YT commentator: If we look at animal based diets vs plant based diets, the plant based diets naturally have lower calories(with the exception of non-indigenous industrialized diets). This could account for the positive health markers that accompany a plant based diet over against a heavy protein, animal based diet.

[quote]nobodyreal wrote:
BiP, you come off as a know it all homo from your posts and a fatty from your pic. People won’t debate with you because the two combined send the message of ‘youtube’ comment section debater, and figure it isn’t worth the effort.

Your post makes it sound like you have information or knowledge when you say, “no evidence”, “no studies”, when you say that protein assimilation and protein over-consumption hasn’t been studied, you begin to look more and more like a YT commentator. I’m not digging up the studies or responding to your sloppy ‘block text’ responses, you are the one who said there hasn’t been studies done on the subject.

Anyways, continue to defend your reputation here, it’s a forum dude. Just admit ignorance when you are ignorant and don’t try to score browny points with the older posters by posting retarded comments like you just did. The study of how carbs interact with the body, fats, protein, is not new. I mentioned some things in my post that should give you some things to read-up on(IGF-1, CRP, etc).

Something else to think on: if you’re consuming massive protein you are also consuming massive calories. Increasd calories = decreased melatonin production(calorie restriction + melatonin production in google). Melatonin is an effecient free radical scavenger and anti-oxidant, and I have heard that decreased melatonin production is the reason for decreased DHEA production.

(Oxygen radical detoxification processes during aging: the functional importance of melatonin.
Reiter RJ.

Department of Cellular and Structural Biology, University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio 78284-7762, USA.)

That contains some of this about the role of melatonin in aging, it’s importance. I don’t have the information anymore on melatonin production and calorie restriction, but you should be able to find it easily. About the potential anti-aging benefits of DHEA, that also can be found on the web.

To the thread not to the British YT commentator: If we look at animal based diets vs plant based diets, the plant based diets naturally have lower calories(with the exception of non-indigenous industrialized diets). This could account for the positive health markers that accompany a plant based diet over against a heavy protein, animal based diet.

[/quote]

For you;

[quote]nobodyreal wrote:
BiP, you come off as a know it all homo from your posts and a fatty from your pic. People won’t debate with you because the two combined send the message of ‘youtube’ comment section debater, and figure it isn’t worth the effort.[/quote]

So, now you’re not only suggesting that you are able to determine I am fat (which I am not) from a 4 year old photo but also that I am gay? I guess someone has issues…

This is the first thing you said that might make any sense. I’ll look into it later.

[quote]silverhydra wrote:
BiP, I can’t believe you are putting so much effort into responding the that ignoramus. You are much too kind :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Thanks :slight_smile: I guess helping people study a couple of times at school and uni made me believe that science can be explained to anyone. I’m starting to think I am wrong, though…

[quote]
And if it helps (if you wish to research on your own), I have heard a lot about protein and aging in regards to IGF-1, but that seems to just be extrapolating from animal studies and attempting to use epidemiological studies loosely to validate it in humans. (Edit: The vegan agenda is also prevalent in this area, as they as a population seem to have lower IGF-1 and use this fact as validation for health)[/quote]

I’ll look into it. Might even check with my uncle and grandfather (both doctors) if they have any papers about it somewhere when I’m home for Easter. At least my uncle should be relatively up to date with some research.

B.

[quote]randman wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:

A better question would be how do you know that 2, 3, or 4 grams per bodyweight is not overconsuming protein?

I don’t. [/quote]

I guess that says it all right there. You really don’t know a safe level of protein and neither do I. But, since I don’t know I’m not going to chance overconsumption so that I will have larger biceps, you will. I don’t fault you for this choice but it just isn’t for me.

Nice talking to you.

[/quote]

This post is saying two different things.[/quote]

Not really maybe you better give it another read. There isn’t that much there, I know you can do it.

What I like about pop phrases like “passive aggressive” is that they’re continually over used and misused (as in this case) much to my amusement. You’re Professor wouldn’t be very pleased with you now would he? Eh, that’s another discussion isn’t it?

What I’m claiming is that if no one knows the optimum then how does he (or anyone) know that he is not there? In other words, better to be cautious than overzealous. Furthermore, anecdotal evidence to the contrary everyones body is different and what may be low for you could be high for someone else. In addition to that many people over 40 have declining kidney function and that too would play into it.

Do you understand better now?

[quote]Or do you just think ProfX is a dick and are not coming out and saying it directly or do you just like targeting certain members on this board to engage in virtual arguments? Just curious.
[/quote]

And you got all of this out that one little post? My oh my you certainly are not a smart individual now are you?

[quote]BiP wrote:

Thanks :slight_smile: I guess helping people study a couple of times at school and uni made me believe that science can be explained to anyone. I’m starting to think I am wrong, though…[/quote]

You know I’m willing to put up with a little crap talk from the gallery because those people bring nothing to this thread (or any others from what I can tell). But in all honestly get off your high horse, your hubris is not becoming. There is not one shred of “science” that can tell us what the proper upper end protein consumption safety is as it relates to each individuals needs.

My gosh a little education is just like someone who has taken 12 Karate classes and now thinks he’s Bruce Lee.

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]silverhydra wrote:
BiP, I can’t believe you are putting so much effort into responding the that ignoramus. You are much too kind :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Thanks :slight_smile: I guess helping people study a couple of times at school and uni made me believe that science can be explained to anyone. I’m starting to think I am wrong, though…

[/quote]

You’re debating from a position of uncertainty on a topic that has not been clearly defined yet by literature, and a topic that likely has too many variables to come to a clear-cut conclusion.

Your debate opponent (And that nobody douche who felt the need to call you fat and gay, while saying that your comments were reminiscent of a youtuber…) are arguing from a position which, to me, seems to be one dissecting your semantics and contributing no positions of their own.

It’s like trying to talk reasonably with a drunken guy wearing an Affliction T-shirt. They won’t say anything reasonable, they will merely rehash what you said and make it seem like it was wrong in some way.

If there’s no hard and fast answer to the question, and your debating against these types of pricks, I would just suggest leaving it, nothing good will come out of continuing this debate.

Just in case anyone cares

http://medind.nic.in/jac/t03/i3/jact03i3p234.pdf

too much O2 is bad for you too

Everything is bad in excessive amounts. Some of these amounts actually border on absurd, and are know as the LD50 for a chemical (lethal dose in 50% of population based on dose per body weight).

Too little oxygen is bad, as is too much.
Too little water is bad, as is too much.
Too little K+ can stop your heart, as can too much.

There is nothing that you can put in your body that cannot be overdone. I’m sure too much protein is bad, but I’m not going to say that anything the average person consumes comes close. My doctor tells me he would like to see me ingest 40% of my calories from protein. As I need to lose quite a bit of fat, and will be striving for a 2000 calorie/day diet, that is around 200 grams of protein a day. Considering he says most people don’t even get enough protein in their diets, why is everyone up at arms around a handful of people who consume more than is considered “normal”?

I am a nurse, and know that protein is essential for body function. I work in a nursing home, and see plenty of adverse effects in wound healing and wasting away from eating too little. What do you think they test for in the blood? Albumin, which is a form or protein. They aren’t checking how much carbs they have, or how much fat, but protein.

I know, someone is going to tell me that I’m comparing two extremes. Oh well, sometimes I get to rambling

[quote]silverhydra wrote:
You’re debating from a position of uncertainty on a topic that has not been clearly defined yet by literature, and a topic that likely has too many variables to come to a clear-cut conclusion.

Your debate opponent (And that nobody douche who felt the need to call you fat and gay, while saying that your comments were reminiscent of a youtuber…) are arguing from a position which, to me, seems to be one dissecting your semantics and contributing no positions of their own.

It’s like trying to talk reasonably with a drunken guy wearing an Affliction T-shirt. They won’t say anything reasonable, they will merely rehash what you said and make it seem like it was wrong in some way.

If there’s no hard and fast answer to the question, and your debating against these types of pricks, I would just suggest leaving it, nothing good will come out of continuing this debate.
[/quote]

I believe you are right. At first it was vaguely amusing, but now it’s just getting tiresome.

B.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think it should be pretty clear by now that too much of anything is bad for you, um, except protein of course, you can’t possibly have too much protein. Regardless of how much you consume it will always be good for you. Yes, that makes complete sense, we can all sleep tonight knowing this.

[/quote]

I am open to whatever studies you can find done on healthy regular weight lifters who train 4-8 hours a week or more showing protein to be detrimental to health in and of itself.[/quote]

Good thing for us, that will never happen.

I find it funny that people rely so much on theory and not enough on practice. Bodybuilders for years have lived on a high protein, some higher than 3 grams per pound of bodyweight.

How many years have bodybuilders been “overconsuming” protein? Since AT LEAST the 70s. Just read the old bodybuilder books.

So we have 4 decades - or 40 years - of the “overconsumption” of protein.

Surely there have been autopsies of bodybuilders, right?

Where are the rotted kidneys? The diseased livers? The rotten brains?


This isn’t hard stuff.

If someone is making a claim but cannot prove it, it’s probably because the person CANNOT prove it.

One need have no knowledge of biology to realize why this doctor is a liar. A basic understanding of critical thinking easily disposes of superstitious and hysterical thinking.

[quote]wher0001 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think it should be pretty clear by now that too much of anything is bad for you, um, except protein of course, you can’t possibly have too much protein. Regardless of how much you consume it will always be good for you. Yes, that makes complete sense, we can all sleep tonight knowing this.

[/quote]

I am open to whatever studies you can find done on healthy regular weight lifters who train 4-8 hours a week or more showing protein to be detrimental to health in and of itself.[/quote]

Good thing for us, that will never happen.

I find it funny that people rely so much on theory and not enough on practice. Bodybuilders for years have lived on a high protein, some higher than 3 grams per pound of bodyweight.
[/quote]

Agreed…plus, like I wrote before, I seriously doubt ancient man was letting several pounds of solid meat rot away because they were afraid to eat too much protein. Our bodies, if anything, should be very able to support very large amounts of protein unless there has been damage to internal organs through disease.

I’ve grown up in medicine literally since freshman year of high school and I have NEVER heard of someone dying or ending up with severe disease SIMPLY because they ate a lot of protein in a balanced diet. In fact, someone like that is way more likely to actually eat better overall.

You will notice that much of this vegetarian propaganda involves acting like high protein diets automatically involve HUGE LEVELS OF SATURATED FAT.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I seriously doubt ancient man was letting several pounds of solid meat rot away because they were afraid to eat too much protein. [/quote]

I’m sure they ate a lot of meat when they had it, but they didn’t have it often I don’t think. How many times do you think ancient man had the pleasure of having that much kill laying around? Red meat as in big nasty animals were very hard to kill. No doubt they gorged on it when they had it, but it was rare.

So what you’re saying is that protein needs for each is probably very specific. Many over 40 have kidneys that do not function as well as those under 40. Then of course you have individual differences based upon how active they are. The list is endless, what works for you may not work for me, or someone else.

[quote]
You will notice that much of this vegetarian propaganda involves acting like high protein diets automatically involve HUGE LEVELS OF SATURATED FAT.[/quote]

I totally agree with you on this point. I also think vegetarians are less healthy than meat eaters and there’s some data to back this up I believe.

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
As I recall, Eskimos ate ONLY protein and fat. LOTS of it. It was only when introduced to a “civilized” diet (carb-laden, processed foods) did they suffer the diseases of “civilized” man. [/quote]

Oh god

if these guys even think about carbs they become obese. Where I live you have like the normal lower class kids who eats pasta and the occasionnal inuit who has the exact same lifestyle, hangs out at the park but is OBESE. Always

Argh, the simple truth is that religious fanatics are religious fanatics. It doesn’t matter whether they’re AGW freaks, bible-thumpers, vegetarian/vegans, or Gandhi for that matter. What makes them religious fanatics is that they have a belief and will selectively edit info to fit their preconceived notions.

Probably the most important class I ever took was a seminar in philosophy of biology I took just for the hell of it. Changed my life. I’ve always been a philosophical guy, but it was there I learned about why science is done the way it is done. The human mind is pretty much built to jump to conclusions (such as ‘that roar must mean a lion is nearby, time to run up a tree!’). In life-or-death situations it pays to be able to react quickly with fair accuracy rather than react slowly with perfect accuracy. The human mind…all minds really…is also built to hold onto a conclusion. Like your dog that insists on barking everytime it hears a doorbell on TV, even though its very senses tell it that the sound is not coming from the door area.

Science is ultimately a framework designed to prevent us from jumping to conclusions. It’s designed to prevent our flawed brains from preventing us from seeing the truth. Which is why traditionally epistemology (the philosophy of knowledge) was a fundamental part of a scientist’s education, until the rise of government-funded granting bodies. Which in that inimitable way of bureaucracies everywhere, came to value strongly-worded conclusions and statistics more than it did the actual basis for them.

And in the case of medicine, the importance of epistemology NEVER existed. Yall might remember my article ‘What your doctor doesn’t know about weightlifting’. The working title was actually ‘Why doctors are stupid’. Doctors love to jump to conclusions and hold onto them without ever bothering to think about the basis for them. That goes for nutritionists too.

And it shows in Ornish’s patheticity. You would think that if a doc is going to pontificate on the right diet for humans, they would have spent some time studying our evolutionary history to get an idea of the environment we existed in. You’d be wrong. I have yet to meet another doc with formal education in human evolution. It’s pretty horrifying.

As others have mentioned, our bodies are not equipped to deal with plant-source protein well. Studies have actually shown that raw food vegans’ bodies almost literally rot from within. Heck, I come from the only vegetarian culture in history, and even we understood the importance of animal-source protein. That’s the whole historical basis for the deification of the cow for crying out loud. But not the chicken, which is odd, because eggs are the other main source of protein in our diets.

And it also shows when Ornish links protein to saturated fats. A trip down google-scholar shows that this is almost entirely due to the grain-fed meats we are used to. Grains are bad. They have bad fats and make you make bad fat. Grains are the real enemy.

As for osteoporosis, somehow I seriously doubt that the type of people who eat high protein diets (lifters and other athletes) are going to have that problem. The bone-growth stimulus from weight training far outweighs the bone-loss effect of alkalinized diet. I see a lot of old people. It’s rarely the high-protein, heavy-lifting, highly active old people that are stooped so far down they look at their toes. That’s the sedentary carb-loving group.

As for longevity, anyone into old time strongman? A LOT of those old farts lived into their 80s and were active the whole time. If someone gave me the choice between being 80 and still being highly active and strong as sin like Ed Zercher, Otto Arco, Charles Atlas, or George Hackenschmidt, or living into my 90s as a decrepit, demented, old person in a wheelchair, well I’ll pick the former.

Depends which ancient man tribe you are talking about. Depends on their location and hunting skills. Ideally, they could get as much as they wanted, but wouldn’t waste their resources.

Eskimos also ate blueberries(carbs)(yes, they grow wild in ALASKA). Their meat sources were also very healthy. I’m sure somebody already mentioned that Eskimos meat sources were healthy, but I don’t feel like reading this thread. They ate walrus blubber(omega 3), salmon, blueberries, and I don’t know what else. But wild salmon and blueberries are pretty damn healthy. I’m also pretty sure that Eskimos would trade with others, this would have varied their diet. I’d also be willing to bet that salmon and walrus blubber were pretty damn valuable.

[quote]Nikhil Rao wrote:
As others have mentioned, our bodies are not equipped to deal with plant-source protein well. Studies have actually shown that raw food vegans’ bodies almost literally rot from within.
[/quote]

Do you happen to remember any of the names attached to that study/the title? I’d be really interested in reading it, perhaps sharing the info with my fellow nutrition students (many of them veer toward the “vegetarian/vegan is healthy/better” mentality and I always like to have extra weaponry in my arsenal…because, you know, I believe in science, not propaganda).