[quote]red04 wrote:
Water and Oxygen are also bad for you at certain points, so we should all stop breathing and drinking.(I know this is a huge logical fallacy but it seemed fitting to argue irrationality with irrationality)[/quote]
(I just gave you an internet high five)
Make sure not to overconsume it though. I haven’t seen any studies about excess O2 and H20 consumption, so I’m going to assume that breathing once every 30 seconds and absorbing water solely via osmosis in rain puddles (keratin be damned) are a safe limit.
A better question would be how do you know that 2, 3, or 4 grams per bodyweight is not overconsuming protein?
I don’t. [/quote]
I guess that says it all right there. You really don’t know a safe level of protein and neither do I. But, since I don’t know I’m not going to chance overconsumption so that I will have larger biceps, you will. I don’t fault you for this choice but it just isn’t for me.
Are people really unable to make any decisions without being certain what is safe, regardless of whether thay actually have ANY reasons to believe something might not be safe? If I thought that my kidneys would explode from excess protein, my liver would die from all the supplements, my heart would explode from weighing too much (yes, I’m 180lbs at 5’8" and the gym manager told me that my heart can’t take any more weight…), I would go deaf from playing the guitar and blind from reading books I would never get anywhere in life. But I guess every excuse helps if you want to stay comfortable.
[quote]red04 wrote:
Water and Oxygen are also bad for you at certain points, so we should all stop breathing and drinking.(I know this is a huge logical fallacy but it seemed fitting to argue irrationality with irrationality)[/quote]
(I just gave you an internet high five)
Make sure not to overconsume it though. I haven’t seen any studies about excess O2 and H20 consumption, so I’m going to assume that breathing once every 30 seconds and absorbing water solely via osmosis in rain puddles (keratin be damned) are a safe limit.
I await studies to refute my stance.
[/quote]
There is such a thing as water poisoning. Drink to much water and you cells can swell up and burst.
[quote]BiP wrote:
Are people really unable to make any decisions without being certain what is safe, regardless of whether thay actually have ANY reasons to believe something might not be safe?[/quote]
Logically, the overconsumption of anything is unsafe, that really isn’t the point is it? The point what constitutes overconsumption.
The rest of your diatribe is nonsense, so I won’t bother to muster a retort.
[quote]BiP wrote:
Are people really unable to make any decisions without being certain what is safe, regardless of whether thay actually have ANY reasons to believe something might not be safe?[/quote]
Logically, the overconsumption of anything is unsafe, that really isn’t the point is it? The point what constitutes overconsumption.
The rest of your diatribe is nonsense, so I won’t bother to muster a retort.
[/quote]
On the contrary, that “nonsense” illustrates my point. Worrying about limits when there is no reason to assume you are anywhere near them, whether they are safety limits or other limits, is likely to cause more harm then good by stopping your development. And there is absolutely no reason to assume that the amount of protein that can be realistically consumed (short of someone intentionally trying to get to 1000g per day, which would be very difficult) is dangerous to the point of anyone here having to worry about it.
I tried to comment of Huff Post, but they wouldn’t post 'em, just got snarky responses from the moderators.
Articles like that are written based on a political agenda, and half the comments on the article spell it out: corporations are evil, factory farms are evil, cows feel pain too, eating meat is morally wrong, therefore a vegetarian diet must be healthiest.
It’s politics and morals invading the realm of science. Morals should dictate what YOU do with the science, not WHAT the science says.
This stuff infuriates me to no end, and is the reason I still get into fights with my vegan friends (okay, mostly my friends’ vegan friends) about this all the time.
The great leap that if I think it’s morally obligatory, it must be healthy as well. The mother goddess said so.
[quote]BiP wrote:
Are people really unable to make any decisions without being certain what is safe, regardless of whether thay actually have ANY reasons to believe something might not be safe?[/quote]
Logically, the overconsumption of anything is unsafe, that really isn’t the point is it? The point what constitutes overconsumption.
The rest of your diatribe is nonsense, so I won’t bother to muster a retort.
[/quote]
On the contrary, that “nonsense” illustrates my point. Worrying about limits when there is no reason to assume you are anywhere near them, whether they are safety limits or other limits, is likely to cause more harm then good by stopping your development. And there is absolutely no reason to assume that the amount of protein that can be realistically consumed (short of someone intentionally trying to get to 1000g per day, which would be very difficult) is dangerous to the point of anyone here having to worry about it.[/quote]
There is every reason to assume that overconsumption of any product can cause harm to your body. What part of that don’t you understand? When just about every major medical organization through out the world recommends less than what your typical nutrition company claims is beneficial, that is something to sit up and take notice of.
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
I tried to comment of Huff Post, but they wouldn’t post 'em, just got snarky responses from the moderators.
Articles like that are written based on a political agenda, and half the comments on the article spell it out: corporations are evil, factory farms are evil, cows feel pain too, eating meat is morally wrong, therefore a vegetarian diet must be healthiest.
It’s politics and morals invading the realm of science. Morals should dictate what YOU do with the science, not WHAT the science says.
This stuff infuriates me to no end, and is the reason I still get into fights with my vegan friends (okay, mostly my friends’ vegan friends) about this all the time.
The great leap that if I think it’s morally obligatory, it must be healthy as well. The mother goddess said so.[/quote]
[quote]BiP wrote:
On the contrary, that “nonsense” illustrates my point. Worrying about limits when there is no reason to assume you are anywhere near them, whether they are safety limits or other limits, is likely to cause more harm then good by stopping your development. And there is absolutely no reason to assume that the amount of protein that can be realistically consumed (short of someone intentionally trying to get to 1000g per day, which would be very difficult) is dangerous to the point of anyone here having to worry about it.[/quote]
There is every reason to assume that overconsumption of any product can cause harm to your body. What part of that don’t you understand? When just about every major medical organization through out the world recommends less than what your typical nutrition company claims is beneficial, that is something to sit up and take notice of.
Sorry to awaken you from your slumber.[/quote]
It seems reading comprehension is not your strongest point. I am not claiming that theoretical overconsumption (i.e. without thinking what can actually be consumed given time and space constraints) is impossible. I am just saying that it is realistically very improbable. I would not be surprised if consumption of 10000g of protein per day was harmful, but realistically we only have to consider consumption of under (usually well under) 1000g.
As for official recommendations - feel free to stick to the OFFICIAL US RDA of 0.8g of protein per kg body mass. If, however, you want to discuss possible overconsumption I suggest you look at some research.
[quote]red04 wrote:
Water and Oxygen are also bad for you at certain points, so we should all stop breathing and drinking.(I know this is a huge logical fallacy but it seemed fitting to argue irrationality with irrationality)[/quote]
(I just gave you an internet high five)
Make sure not to overconsume it though. I haven’t seen any studies about excess O2 and H20 consumption, so I’m going to assume that breathing once every 30 seconds and absorbing water solely via osmosis in rain puddles (keratin be damned) are a safe limit.
I await studies to refute my stance.
[/quote]
There is such a thing as water poisoning. Drink to much water and you cells can swell up and burst.
Now that I am aware of such a limit, I will curtail most, if not all, extraneous water consumption, even if I am no where near such a limit.
I do not care if my progress stalls, and I will not listen to the reasoning that I shouldn’t worry since I am not near that limit. This is because I am smart and everyone else is trying to kill themselves through consumption for some reason.
A better question would be how do you know that 2, 3, or 4 grams per bodyweight is not overconsuming protein?
I don’t. [/quote]
I guess that says it all right there. You really don’t know a safe level of protein and neither do I. But, since I don’t know I’m not going to chance overconsumption so that I will have larger biceps, you will. I don’t fault you for this choice but it just isn’t for me.
Nice talking to you.
[/quote]
This post is saying two different things. In the first sentence you say that you don’t know what a safe level of protein consumption is and then in the next sentence you take a passive aggressive stance towards ProfX’s protein consumption habits and imply that he is toeing the overconsumption line. So I guess you are defining overconsumption as 2 g/lb of bodyweight? Or do you still not know?
Or do you just think ProfX is a dick and are not coming out and saying it directly or do you just like targeting certain members on this board to engage in virtual arguments? Just curious.
If you drink 4 gallons of water in one hour, you will die. Therefore it is obvious you have overconsumed.
If you eat 350-400 grams of protein every day for years on end (somewhat like myself), and don’t see any negative effects, then of course you won’t believe it’s the devil.
Too many carbs and fats are easy to eat too much off, and it’s been repeatedly well documented what that does to a person. Obviously then, we shy away from too much of either. If it was so obvious that 300-500 grams of protein a day fucks up people’s health, it probably would be well documented as such by now. Until it is, I will happily be bigger than the skeptics.
[quote]BiP wrote:
ZEB wrote:
On the contrary, that “nonsense” illustrates my point. Worrying about limits when there is no reason to assume you are anywhere near them, whether they are safety limits or other limits, is likely to cause more harm then good by stopping your development. And there is absolutely no reason to assume that the amount of protein that can be realistically consumed (short of someone intentionally trying to get to 1000g per day, which would be very difficult) is dangerous to the point of anyone here having to worry about it.
There is every reason to assume that overconsumption of any product can cause harm to your body. What part of that don’t you understand? When just about every major medical organization through out the world recommends less than what your typical nutrition company claims is beneficial, that is something to sit up and take notice of.
Sorry to awaken you from your slumber.
It seems reading comprehension is not your strongest point.[/quote]
Very old put-down, I stopped using that around 2006.
How do you know? Where are your statistics? You’ve been told by nutritional companies and others who have a financial interest (in selling protein) that there’s just no upper limit, that they can see. But again, how do you know what the upper limit is?
How do you know that would be any more, or less harmful than 600 grams? What are you basing your estimate on?
[quote]
As for official recommendations - feel free to stick to the OFFICIAL US RDA of 0.8g of protein per kg body mass. If, however, you want to discuss possible overconsumption I suggest you look at some research.
.[/quote]
Let me give you the same advice. You tell me to look at research when you have not given me one iota of research to back up any of your assumptions. These are the assumptions that you’ve been relying on for how long? Based on what?
Seriously, my position is not unreasonable, think about it.
[quote]BiP wrote:
It seems reading comprehension is not your strongest point.[/quote]
Very old put-down, I stopped using that around 2006. [/quote]
I did not realise reading comprehension went in and out of fashion?
[quote]
How do you know? Where are your statistics? You’ve been told by nutritional companies and others who have a financial interest (in selling protein) that there’s just no upper limit, that they can see. But again, how do you know what the upper limit is? [/quote]
I don’t. But I have no reason to assume that there is one either, at least not within reason (i.e. how much I can eat within a day even if I force feed myself). And no one has ever reported any side effects from a very high protein diet - on the contrary. I am not considering people with existing renal disease, only healthy individuals, of course. By analogy - theoretically, someone could have removed the floor outside my flat, and if I’m not careful I could fall when I leave tomorrow. But there is no reason to assume that might be the case.
[quote]
How do you know that would be any more, or less harmful than 600 grams? What are you basing your estimate on?[/quote]
It is NOT an estimate. I do not KNOW it. It is simply a random figure that is higher than protein consumption in any individual by more than a factor of 10 (and a factor of 100 for some people). I did not say that I ASSUME or KNOW or even EXPECT it to be harmful, just that it is a figure so high compared to what anyone has ever attempted to consume that anything is possible.
[quote]
[quote]
As for official recommendations - feel free to stick to the OFFICIAL US RDA of 0.8g of protein per kg body mass. If, however, you want to discuss possible overconsumption I suggest you look at some research.
.[/quote]
Let me give you the same advice. You tell me to look at research when you have not given me one iota of research to back up any of your assumptions. These are the assumptions that you’ve been relying on for how long? Based on what?[/quote]
First of all, since you are the one making a claim about the possible dangers of very high protein diets you should be the one presenting proof to back it up.
Second, since there is absolutely no evidence to assume that protein intake within 100s can be dangerous no one bothers to do much research into it. In case you don’t know, research money is limited, and is not given out at random to prove a an assumption that has absolutely no grounding. Here are two research papers that cover slightly lower intake, but show why there is no great interest in studying higher intake, since there is no reason to worry:
Took me 5 minutes with google. And there are plenty more out there.
The idea that a certain high protein intake may be harmful is, in itself, not completely unreasonable. However, all evidence proves otherwise. We may not have conclusive research, but that is because there is no immediate cause for concern, i.e. nothing so far has given anyone any reason for concern that would justify spending money on such research.
[quote]BiP wrote:
ZEB wrote:
But again, how do you know what the upper limit is?
I don’t. But I have no reason to assume that there is one either,[/quote]
Hey thanks that says it all right there. I won’t waste anymore of your time, or mine (a few years ago I would have taken this to 20 pages). I’ll end the way I came in this thread. I feel that you can over consume everything from water to vitamins and everything in between. Apparently you don’t feel that there’s an upper limit to protein. Ooookay, no problem. We have our biases and arguing over the Internet isn’t going to change either of us.
You keep shoveling in the protein and I’ll keep consuming it in moderation and hopefully we’ll both end up strong and healthy in the end. No wait, we all die in the end, Oh well you understand my sentiment.
For awhile a lot of the vegetarians were latching on to some studies done on Rats that seemed to show that protein restriction was a way of reducing the IGF-1 levels in rats. With the reduced IGF-1 levels, longevity in rats increased. Then they appealed to some other studies that suggested IGF-1 levels are also a longevity factor in humans(i.e. higher igf-1 = higher potential for cancer).
I think this went along the lines that taller people are more likely to get cancer and taller people have higher concentrations of IGF-1 in their body.
Anyways, I thought that they might be on to something there, only that I realized later that whenever you reduce ANY energy intake it seems that positive health markers improve and negative health markers decrease(i.e. CRP levels increase with carbohydrate consumption, IGF-1 levels increase with protein consumption, etc.)
The answer I think is to choose our calories carefully, maybe lengthen our eating windows to that which they would have been if we weren’t an agricultural/industrial society(longer meal spacing) which seems to be able to simulate the same effects as calorie restriction(according to the IFers/Paleo crew).
Anyways, interesting topic. I’ve currently begun having longer windows of under-eating just as an experiment until further research comes along. I kind of have the sentiments of Zeb, that we should just mess around and exercise discernment, and maybe even be unscientific and anecdotal until further research is done in this area.
To the UK dude, yes research is being done in longevity and nutritional factors like protein in-take are being examined. Don’t sound like you know what you’re talking about, I can tell by looking at your pic that you are at a high bf% and from the smugness in your post that you’re a BSer. High info diet or don’t speak brah.