[quote]LoRez wrote:
Trying to figure out this relationship between bone size and muscle size…
If someone has a 6" wrist, and someone else has an 8" wrist, their upper arm bone (humerus) is going to be somewhat bigger, and contribute a bit to the overall arm girth (you know, since the muscle is pushed out a bit more). But we’re talking a very minor change in diameter between the same muscles on a bigger bone versus a smaller bone.
I could see that there would be regulatory mechanisms that limit muscle growth on weak bone… or more particularly, as the muscle grows and exerts pressure on the bone, microtrauma to the bone causes it to strengthen.
So maybe as the muscles get stronger, the bone compensates by getting denser, and when it maxes that out, it becomes thicker.
But even that seems like it would be pretty localized. My humerus might get bigger, but I can’t see any reason why my wrist would grow… unless there’s some magic “grow bone everywhere” process that happens?[/quote]
Just curious: why does any of that matter? It’s not going to change what you do in the gym, right? It’s simply idle thought. Emphasis on IDLE.
As for the answer to your question: read medical texts. Musings on the subject/discussions on a bodybuilding forum are not going to lead you to answers. Talking about what you THINK bones might be doing is absurd. It’s not a question for rational thought/logic. It’s a question for scientific study and measurement.[/quote]
It’s mostly idle thought, but with potentially real applications.
If it’s true that muscular growth is limited by bone diameter, then you can start looking into ways to improve bone diameter. Or, you can start looking into ways to block the physiological process to limit muscle growth based on bone size.
Most, if not all, scientific study is exactly this… idly musing on something, and then testing it to find out if it’s true.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Trying to figure out this relationship between bone size and muscle size…
If someone has a 6" wrist, and someone else has an 8" wrist, their upper arm bone (humerus) is going to be somewhat bigger, and contribute a bit to the overall arm girth (you know, since the muscle is pushed out a bit more). But we’re talking a very minor change in diameter between the same muscles on a bigger bone versus a smaller bone.
I could see that there would be regulatory mechanisms that limit muscle growth on weak bone… or more particularly, as the muscle grows and exerts pressure on the bone, microtrauma to the bone causes it to strengthen.
So maybe as the muscles get stronger, the bone compensates by getting denser, and when it maxes that out, it becomes thicker.
But even that seems like it would be pretty localized. My humerus might get bigger, but I can’t see any reason why my wrist would grow… unless there’s some magic “grow bone everywhere” process that happens?[/quote]
Just curious: why does any of that matter? It’s not going to change what you do in the gym, right? It’s simply idle thought. Emphasis on IDLE.
As for the answer to your question: read medical texts. Musings on the subject/discussions on a bodybuilding forum are not going to lead you to answers. Talking about what you THINK bones might be doing is absurd. It’s not a question for rational thought/logic. It’s a question for scientific study and measurement.[/quote]
It’s mostly idle thought, but with potentially real applications.
If it’s true that muscular growth is limited by bone diameter, then you can start looking into ways to improve bone diameter. Or, you can start looking into ways to block the physiological process to limit muscle growth based on bone size.
Most, if not all, scientific study is exactly this… idly musing on something, and then testing it to find out if it’s true.[/quote]
You personally are not going to do either of the 2 things you mentioned (actively work to improve your own bone diameter or block the limits of muscle growth based on bone size).
Yes, that’s how scientific study works… for scientists. If you’re not in that field, you’re not going to be performing these studies, so YOUR idle musings are ineffective. In fact, you haven’t even read up on the subject to know if these studies have been done already.
In summary, I disagree that this conversation has a single practical application.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You know…when I dissected that human body, I did notice there were tons of tendons there. That means, like I said, I would expect that in people who have seen massive forearm growth. Most of the guys here have not seen above average growth there…so I wouldn’t expect much wrist growth.[/quote]
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You know…when I dissected that human body, I did notice there were tons of tendons there. That means, like I said, I would expect that in people who have seen massive forearm growth. Most of the guys here have not seen above average growth there…so I wouldn’t expect much wrist growth.[/quote]
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Trying to figure out this relationship between bone size and muscle size…
If someone has a 6" wrist, and someone else has an 8" wrist, their upper arm bone (humerus) is going to be somewhat bigger, and contribute a bit to the overall arm girth (you know, since the muscle is pushed out a bit more). But we’re talking a very minor change in diameter between the same muscles on a bigger bone versus a smaller bone.
I could see that there would be regulatory mechanisms that limit muscle growth on weak bone… or more particularly, as the muscle grows and exerts pressure on the bone, microtrauma to the bone causes it to strengthen.
So maybe as the muscles get stronger, the bone compensates by getting denser, and when it maxes that out, it becomes thicker.
But even that seems like it would be pretty localized. My humerus might get bigger, but I can’t see any reason why my wrist would grow… unless there’s some magic “grow bone everywhere” process that happens?[/quote]
Just curious: why does any of that matter? It’s not going to change what you do in the gym, right? It’s simply idle thought. Emphasis on IDLE.
As for the answer to your question: read medical texts. Musings on the subject/discussions on a bodybuilding forum are not going to lead you to answers. Talking about what you THINK bones might be doing is absurd. It’s not a question for rational thought/logic. It’s a question for scientific study and measurement.[/quote]
It’s mostly idle thought, but with potentially real applications.
If it’s true that muscular growth is limited by bone diameter, then you can start looking into ways to improve bone diameter. Or, you can start looking into ways to block the physiological process to limit muscle growth based on bone size.
Most, if not all, scientific study is exactly this… idly musing on something, and then testing it to find out if it’s true.[/quote]
You personally are not going to do either of the 2 things you mentioned (actively work to improve your own bone diameter or block the limits of muscle growth based on bone size).[/quote]
You sure? If people above said their wrists actually increased in size over time, after being fully grown, I’d actually like to know how to do it. Assuming, of course, that the increase is due to bone growth rather than tendon thickness.
It’s also how you do any sorts of experiments yourself. I don’t need to be a scientist to think of something, try it out, and see if it works.
This is what I get paid to do. Look at a problem from many angles, come up with a model of what’s happening and why, verify that model, then come up with a creative solution based on principles discovered in that modeling process, build the solution, test and verify it.
I don’t need to be a subject matter expert to do that.
You sure? If people above said their wrists actually increased in size over time, after being fully grown, I’d actually like to know how to do it. Assuming, of course, that the increase is due to bone growth rather than tendon thickness.
[/quote]
Actually, I am pretty sure I discussed growth plates closing. The average male doesn’t stop growing completely until close to the age of 21 (variable). That is also why I discuss bulking up when young.
I write this shit for a decade and it still doesn’t get through.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
This is what I get paid to do. Look at a problem from many angles, come up with a model of what’s happening and why, verify that model, then come up with a creative solution based on principles discovered in that modeling process, build the solution, test and verify it.
I don’t need to be a subject matter expert to do that.[/quote]
Then by all means…apply it to YOURSELF and show US what you built!
[quote]flch95 wrote:
Am i the only one obsessed with big LEGS and not arms?? OP, if it’s girls you’re really after, women love nice asses just as much if not more…seriously!![/quote]
^this^ LEGS and BACK are my goals ATM. I think I’ve got the tiniest wrist of anyone I know!(I’ll measure when I leave work).But then again, I actually like my small wrist(with the exception of never being able to slide out of handcuffs lol), they make my arms look bigger than they are! I think Stu or Zraw talked about illusion in bodybuilding. I’m going with that! I admit, I’m too obsessed with legs and back to worry about arms, but when I feel my wheels and back are decent, then I’ll work on gettin da’gunzzz!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I write this shit for a decade and it still doesn’t get through.[/quote]
LOL! well in all fairness it’s probably different people every time. first time for me in fact.
[quote]flch95 wrote:
Am i the only one obsessed with big LEGS and not arms?? OP, if it’s girls you’re really after, women love nice asses just as much if not more…seriously!![/quote]
(with the exception of never being able to slide out of handcuffs lol)[/quote]
you find yourself in handcuffs lots?? what type of women do you know?? lol!
PS totally agree with back as well, how could i forget. nothing like a strong posterior chain.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Trying to figure out this relationship between bone size and muscle size…
If someone has a 6" wrist, and someone else has an 8" wrist, their upper arm bone (humerus) is going to be somewhat bigger, and contribute a bit to the overall arm girth (you know, since the muscle is pushed out a bit more). But we’re talking a very minor change in diameter between the same muscles on a bigger bone versus a smaller bone.
I could see that there would be regulatory mechanisms that limit muscle growth on weak bone… or more particularly, as the muscle grows and exerts pressure on the bone, microtrauma to the bone causes it to strengthen.
So maybe as the muscles get stronger, the bone compensates by getting denser, and when it maxes that out, it becomes thicker.
But even that seems like it would be pretty localized. My humerus might get bigger, but I can’t see any reason why my wrist would grow… unless there’s some magic “grow bone everywhere” process that happens?[/quote]
Just curious: why does any of that matter? It’s not going to change what you do in the gym, right? It’s simply idle thought. Emphasis on IDLE.
As for the answer to your question: read medical texts. Musings on the subject/discussions on a bodybuilding forum are not going to lead you to answers. Talking about what you THINK bones might be doing is absurd. It’s not a question for rational thought/logic. It’s a question for scientific study and measurement.[/quote]
It’s mostly idle thought, but with potentially real applications.
If it’s true that muscular growth is limited by bone diameter, then you can start looking into ways to improve bone diameter. Or, you can start looking into ways to block the physiological process to limit muscle growth based on bone size.
Most, if not all, scientific study is exactly this… idly musing on something, and then testing it to find out if it’s true.[/quote]
You personally are not going to do either of the 2 things you mentioned (actively work to improve your own bone diameter or block the limits of muscle growth based on bone size).[/quote]
You sure? If people above said their wrists actually increased in size over time, after being fully grown, I’d actually like to know how to do it. Assuming, of course, that the increase is due to bone growth rather than tendon thickness.
It’s also how you do any sorts of experiments yourself. I don’t need to be a scientist to think of something, try it out, and see if it works.
This is what I get paid to do. Look at a problem from many angles, come up with a model of what’s happening and why, verify that model, then come up with a creative solution based on principles discovered in that modeling process, build the solution, test and verify it.
I don’t need to be a subject matter expert to do that.[/quote]
The answer to getting bigger and stronger is still lifting weights and eating protein, no matter where this conversation goes.
Your desire to “look at a problem from many angles, come up with a creative solution, etc…” will always hold you back in your pursuits of building a better body. Because the things that actually work have nothing to do with creativity. Hard work over long periods of time builds muscle, period. Ironically, this just happens to be the one solution you haven’t applied to the problem. Whether you’ve worked hard in the gym or not can be argued, but the fact is, you haven’t put in the time.
Also, what in the world are you talking about with thinking of something and trying it yourself? You have a way to quantitatively measure the results? You’re going to establish a bone density baseline for yourself, and measure improvements through your trials? Of course not. Which takes all the science out of it. No scientific method present.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
The answer to getting bigger and stronger is still lifting weights and eating protein, no matter where this conversation goes.
Your desire to “look at a problem from many angles, come up with a creative solution, etc…” will always hold you back in your pursuits of building a better body. Because the things that actually work have nothing to do with creativity. Hard work over long periods of time builds muscle, period. Ironically, this just happens to be the one solution you haven’t applied to the problem. Whether you’ve worked hard in the gym or not can be argued, but the fact is, you haven’t put in the time.
Also, what in the world are you talking about with thinking of something and trying it yourself? You have a way to quantitatively measure the results? You’re going to establish a bone density baseline for yourself, and measure improvements through your trials? Of course not. Which takes all the science out of it. No scientific method present.[/quote]
There are two places I can measure where any changes to the diameter will be almost entirely due to changes in the bone: wrists, and ankles.
A number of people have come up with their fancy calculators coming up with “natural muscular limits” based on bone size, as measured at the wrist and ankles.
I just did a quick review of osteopathic and aging literature with respect to muscular and bone cross sectional area, and the general opinion there seems to be that increased muscular area increases bone area… not the other way around.
Likewise, as muscles atrophy, the bone diameter decreases (the cortical bone cross sectional area gets smaller.)
So yes, the answer is: lift more, eat more. And there’s probably something in there about calcium and vitamin d intake, if I felt like digging. There are probably ways to optimize things too.
It also seems that (in research on other animals) that bone CSA also increases from loading, and ideally intermittent loading, rather than continuous load.
This was specifically in response to intermittent longitudinal strain, rather than bending strain, and the tests were done by moving the bone with machinery rather than muscle.
Based on that, I would say it implies a possibility that explosive movements such as the olympic jerk could lead to increased bone thickness… by providing intermittent longitudinal strain.
One more note. Estrogen levels seem to be a critical component in bone growth. It appears that decreased estrogen levels (in both genders) impairs the mechanism whereby muscular strain induces bone growth.
So lifting and eating might be enough for muscular growth, but without sufficient estrogen levels, your bones aren’t going to thicken in response.
(IGF-1 and testosterone are also anabolic for bone growth. Estrogen however seems to be critical for the signaling mechanism of “bigger muscles → bigger bones”.)
While I’m not sure of the implications of this, it does imply that “decreasing estrogen” may not be always be the best goal when screwing around with adjusting hormonal levels via supplementation and gear.
My wrists have grown half an inch from 6.5 to 7inch in the past year,but it is because of the tendons in my wrist that have thickened,not the bone growth,my forearms have gained half an inch and upper arms 1 inch,gaining weight and getting bigger forearms and upper arms seems to to be the key help get bigger wrists.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
One more note. Estrogen levels seem to be a critical component in bone growth. It appears that decreased estrogen levels (in both genders) impairs the mechanism whereby muscular strain induces bone growth.
So lifting and eating might be enough for muscular growth, but without sufficient estrogen levels, your bones aren’t going to thicken in response.
(IGF-1 and testosterone are also anabolic for bone growth. Estrogen however seems to be critical for the signaling mechanism of “bigger muscles → bigger bones”.)
While I’m not sure of the implications of this, it does imply that “decreasing estrogen” may not be always be the best goal when screwing around with adjusting hormonal levels via supplementation and gear.[/quote]
i will be amazed if you are ever able to bench 250 x 10 or get a 17 inch arm.
from the 1.5k posts you seem to like the ‘theorising’ but i just really don’t see you getting past the most basic beginner gains at best.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
One more note. Estrogen levels seem to be a critical component in bone growth. It appears that decreased estrogen levels (in both genders) impairs the mechanism whereby muscular strain induces bone growth.
So lifting and eating might be enough for muscular growth, but without sufficient estrogen levels, your bones aren’t going to thicken in response.
(IGF-1 and testosterone are also anabolic for bone growth. Estrogen however seems to be critical for the signaling mechanism of “bigger muscles → bigger bones”.)
While I’m not sure of the implications of this, it does imply that “decreasing estrogen” may not be always be the best goal when screwing around with adjusting hormonal levels via supplementation and gear.[/quote]
i will be amazed if you are ever able to bench 250 x 10 or get a 17 inch arm.
from the 1.5k posts you seem to like the ‘theorising’ but i just really don’t see you getting past the most basic beginner gains at best.[/quote]
