400m-1600m Training

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

I am a sophomore in high school finishing his second year of doing cross-country, indoor, and outdoor track im look for some help with getting bigger, faster, stonger Usally my weekly practices usally include: 3 days intervals, one day fartlek, one day long (6-12 miles), and one day hills. I lift 4 days a week using the westside for skinny bastards format and adding a day for Oly lifts.

Times
400m: 53.5
800m: 1:59.8
1600m: 4:29.6

Lifts
Deadlift: 355
Squat: 285
Bench:205
Clean and Jerk: 190
Snatch: 136

I weigh somewhere between 160-170. Help is appreciated.

2

First off, you have some damn good numbers for a sophmore in high school. Second, are you progressing with your current plan? If you are then you don’t need to change anything, just keep working hard and eat well to fuel your workouts and recovery. Also, are you looking for an on-season or off-season workout plan? Do you weight train right after running, or at another time during the day? I ran track in middle school, high school, and last year (freshman) in college, so I might be able to help you out.

~Paul

3

First thing those are ok numbers considering the amount of training you do! If you really want to get ‘bigger and stronger and faster’ then you need to make damn sure you have enough calories to achieve this because you must be burning them off at some rate. PWO is very important for you to stave off catabolism.

What is your specialisation? if you run 1500m it is going to be pretty hard to hold on to any muscle or strength but if you went just for 400m or maybe 800m then you could more than likely get away with it. Middle and long distance running is the antithesis to strength so whatever you do unfortunately will be a comprimise but maybe if you lean towards the shorter ranges then they will not be too at odds.

That said Westside is excellent for your purposes just watch for overtraining. Your main priority I assume is your running so don’t lose sight of that. The best way as I sure you know for getting better/faster at running is to run. Have you looked at charliefrancis.com? They have some real gurus especially when it comes to training for sprinters upto 400m and 800m.

4

Sorry, but Westside is next to worthless for a middle or long-distance runner. That kind of training has absolutely no relevance to his events.

5

Loz, my opinion is that your goal of becoming ‘bigger faster stronger’ is not compatible with your running. If you are a runner, then worry about running. How BIG you are and how much you can lift have nothing to do with that. If you want to be big and strong, then change sports.

6

The other guys saying you won’t get bigger is pretty on target. You can however get stronger and in return faster. If you choose to strength train, you will have to choose a program that is geared more towards your shorter events or the longer events. If you notice people typically either run the 400 & 800 or the 800 & 1600, since the two races can be similar. To obtain a perfomance benefit, you muscles must be trained either for the shorter races or the longer ones, as each type of race requires different muscular conditioning.

…I’ll just take the easy route here and say pick up a copy of “Explosive Running” by Michael Yessis. It cost me $17.95 and it’s one of the more useful books I have. It’s a no BS book that goes in depth about running technique, active stretching, plyometrics, strength training, nutrition, and designing workout programs. Using the info about the running technique and changing my form a little immediately enhanced my running, and the exercises provide further benefit once you get into the training.

~Paul

7

Maximal strength (or in this case maybe power/weight ratio) is foundational to whatever sport, so keep up with the lifting. Agreed that you probably don’t want to gain much weight as you’re kinda heavy for mid distance already, so keep tabs on how you perform at a given bodyweight (again - power/weight ratio…).

If track is your main priority (as your 800m time seems the strongest…) you might consider lowering the mileage a little on your “long” run and adding some gpp-type training (ie - 4 x 50 squat thrusts,…) at the end. And the strongest correlation to how fast you run ANY distance of race (100m to marathon…) is your maximal speed (ie 50m time). So be sure to keep speed in your weekly plan and include some plyos/jumps that are quick and explosive!

You’re doing a lot right already, so keep up the good work.

8

[quote]coachj wrote:
And the strongest correlation to how fast you run ANY distance of race (100m to marathon…) is your maximal speed (ie 50m time). So be sure to keep speed in your weekly plan and include some plyos/jumps that are quick and explosive!
quote]

Not sure I understand this statement. Are you saying that Maurice Greene could run a faster marathon than Khalid Khannouchi because of his undoubtably superior 50m time?

Or are you in fact saying that if two athletes have exactly the same VO2 max, aerobic threshold, lactic acid threshold, running efficiency then the guy with greater maximal speed will win.
Maximal speed is important but its significance falls away as distance increases.

9

your half mile time is pretty good for a sophmore.

your lifts are pretty good too. You say you weight 160-170, which may seem a lil high for mid distance, but how tall are you?

I dont know about you, but I remember in HS i’d be trained into the ground. Putting in 4 lift days on top of practice, I’d be dead. Now you’re probably a lot stronger than I am, but make sure your not over training. As another reply said, be sure to each as much good food as possible to keep up with the training.

I know most programs expect that you do just what the coach said, and may not expect you doing ‘extra’ but since this is highschool im sure its not 100% tailored to be just the coaches program. Let the coach know maybe and see how he feels. He could tailor a program which incorporates strength training. Though i feel most coaches arent huge into lifting and say just run.

Make sure to always get a long run in as 800 meters is a huge huge strength endurance race.

it does seem based on your times, that you are better in distance. So im sure WS will get you stronger for the shorter stuff. Keep at it.

10

[quote]creed wrote:
Maximal speed is important but its significance falls away as distance increases.[/quote]

To quibble: Maximal speed falls away as event time increases. People are running miles so d**n fast these days that I imagine speed will become more and more important as times drop.
I, for example, weighed <150 at 6’ when I was a distance runner in high school. The best 1600 I ever ran was 4:48. (SLOOOW). They guys who beat me were stockier than I was. I ran it like a distance runner; they muscled through it.
When the mile hits 3:30, what will our milers look like? They won’t be string beans anymore.

11

Nobody ever comes close to maximal speed during a mid-distance race, so it is not a factor that limits performance.

It is very true that there is a huge correlation between speed capacity and potential over 400m-1500m; in fact, I consider speed to be the most important factor. However, the kind of speed that distance runners need can be described as ‘speed reserve’, not maximal speed. Improving max speed merely improves the ability of the nervous system to recruit motor units for a very brief time period; it does not increase the availability of fast-twitch muscle fibers to contribute throughout the course of a mid-distance race.

12

Im progressing pretty well with this program. I lift in the morning and run in the afternoons that way I get the blood where it needs to be. Im in the off season right now and when I get back to school Ill be in cross country. I realize that distance running and strength/muscle doesnt really mix well but Im the strongest out of all of the runners I race against. This translates into a good start and a pretty good kick. Getting bigger really isnt my goal but since Ive put on 15 pounds over the winter and spring my 800 went from 2:12 to 1:59 so putting on some kind of weight has to be good for my races.

13

[quote]loz800m wrote:
I realize that distance running and strength/muscle doesnt really mix well but Im the strongest out of all of the runners I race against.
[/quote]

This may be true, but you certainly aren’t the best runner out of all the runners you race against. Now, which is the goal: to be the strongest person in the race, or to be the best runner?

First of all, your success as a runner depends on your average speed from the start of a race to the finish, not your start or your kick. Ideally, you would never change speed at all during a race (though I realize that’s unrealistic).

Secondly, it is wrong to attribute your kick to your strength. There are tons of skinny, weak runners in the world who have blistering kicks. The ability to kick depends not on muscular strength, but rather on resistance to fatigue and natural speed.

[quote]
Ive put on 15 pounds over the winter and spring my 800 went from 2:12 to 1:59 so putting on some kind of weight has to be good for my races. [/quote]

Nope, there is no benefit to carrying additional muscle mass. Most likely, your running improved as the result of your running training over the course of the year, not the weight training. Without the additional mass, you might have run even faster.

I don’t know much about you, but based on the facts that you are into strength training and obviously possess a fair amount of natural speed, I am guessing that you have a background in a speed/power sport like football and that you decided to switch to running when you realized how talented you are. I could be wrong about this, but in any case the reason that you are a good mid-distance runner is BECAUSE you possess that natural speed/power which would also allow you to be successful at other athletic endeavors. However, realize that this is mostly a genetic quality. Within the context of a distance running, you’re not going to lose that speed if you stop lifting weights, and nor will you improve on it much even if you double your lifts.

Take that natural speed and focus on what you can improve through training most appreciably- that is, your endurance. Now I’m not necessarily advising you to go out and run tons of slow mileage, rather focus on improving your endurance at specific race speeds. That might mean running mileage if you’re training for 5K cross-country, or it might mean running fast intervals if training for the 800m. In any case, that is the training focus that will yield the most benefit- not focusing on maximal strength and power.

14

Maximal speed for a given event. 2 runners, lets say both 1600m runners, both doing the same training. The runner with a faster 50m time would SRONGLY correlate to the better runner over 1600m. Sorry I left out the perspective (ie the maurice Green/marathon ref). Speed reserve also important - but who with a large speed reserve doesn’t have equally impressive maximal speed (ie El Guerrouj)?

15

I appreciate your goal of becoming bigger, faster, and stronger but if you continue to run long distance you?ll probable end up small, slow and able to run very long distances. You need to decide what is more important or in other words get your priorities in order my young friend. When you have your priorities in order then I can help you.

16

[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
creed wrote:
Maximal speed is important but its significance falls away as distance increases.

To quibble: Maximal speed falls away as event time increases. People are running miles so d**n fast these days that I imagine speed will become more and more important as times drop.
I, for example, weighed <150 at 6’ when I was a distance runner in high school. The best 1600 I ever ran was 4:48. (SLOOOW). They guys who beat me were stockier than I was. I ran it like a distance runner; they muscled through it.
When the mile hits 3:30, what will our milers look like? They won’t be string beans anymore.[/quote]

I would say that this guy is already on the large size for a middle distance runner. Take the all time best 5 for 800m, the biggest is Yuri Borzakovsky at a whopping 6’ 154lb. You think he’s fat well the most obese top 800m runner has to be Andre Bucher at a gigantic 165lb and 6’2"! Wow these guys are hooooge!!

Being big and a middle distance runner are mutually exclusive at least at the elite end of the spectrum.

17

whats your 5k time? I guess comparing you, 400m 800 and 5k time, if you are running your ‘potential’ atleast for now, you can see if your more distance or mid distance. However size doesnt always mean you may be a bad distance runner. My teammate was maybe 6ft 170lbs, but he was a beast and ran 1:53 and :49. If he trained more he may have been able to be a better sprinter? but his great endurance made him one great half miler.

Sure as the distance goes on, being smaller or lighter helps, but even alan webb. He’s not one of those skinny kenyan types, and he’s one fast kid. He’s pretty well built and stocky, not huge by any say, but for a distance guy, I’d think he was pretty big.

Then look at guys like ryan deak or dathan ritzenheim (sp) These kids are skinny. I remember seeing pictures of, but cant find them anymore of Marc Sylvester. I think he runs for tenessee now but he ran like 1:49 in HS. He is a big dude and very strong. At NCAA indoors his freshman yr i think he came around at 51-52 for the 400 and finished maybe 2nd with atleast sub 1:50.

Just make sure all that mass you get is all go and not as much show.

18

My 5k time last year was 16:34 on the saratoga xc course. There are a lot of races there and a few years ago states where there.

19

That’s a good 5k time. Im not familiar with the course but 16:30s is good. In my mind, you seem to have a good strength in distance running. That means you have great endurance. Weight training will make you stronger and faster. Just make sure to do the right lifts and not pec dec and bicep curls.

One thing i keep reading about is how a lot of teams weight train in off season, but stop during the season and lose all the strength. I say keep training but lessen the volume as the season comes along so it fits with the periodization peak your coach is going for.

Keep up the good work and keep us updated with your progress.

20

Ok. Now, I do not want t strep on anyones toes here, but let us not argue about philosophies here and try to help this kid. Yes, his times are very decent for being a sophomore, but he has MUCH room to improve. I too am a runner and I competed in the same events. I have PR’s of:
400M: 46.07
800M: 147.90
1600: 4:08.43

Not too shabby but, again, there was always room for improvement.

Now when it comes to weight training, keep it up kid! The only advice i can give you is, don’t worry so much about getting bigger. In our sport, stronger is what really counts. Our bodies work as one big, symbiotic unit. This means that all of our muscles work together in one way or another. Strength and endurance do not only come from running more, but the increase of the bodies ability to use any muscle that is called apon. You need upper body strength and endurance in order to keep yourself going once you start to fatigue. How many times have you gotten through abotu 75% of your race and had the bear jump on your back? What happens? Your upper body, shoulders, arms, back… they all tighten up and your range of motion goes to crap. You try to kick, and you just seem to end up leaning back and not letting your body go anywhere. Anyone who has ever been a serious runner knows about these things. This is why you NEED TO CONTINUE LIFTING!!!
Do not be affraid of over training. If you want to be the best, you have to train like the best. Just make sure you are eating enough quality foods, good protien sources, and keep yourself flexible. just listen to your body. Know one knows you better than you know yourself.
To conclude this post, keep lifting, keep running and never give up. Not only will the weightlifting make you stronger and faster, it will give you the confidence and mental edge you need to over come any obstacles you may face.
Feel free to contact me if you need any other help or want any advice in your events.
-Jrunr-

Run Strong. Kick Stronger!