20g AndroGel Daily = Muscle Gains?

[LiftingLarge]

Finally got Blood Tests faxed from Doctor (Bill to insurance company was well over $1000, but insurance only paid like $150- was free, except $20 copay, for LiftingLarge) Doctor was not good at explaining these and just mentioning something about a protein not transferring Testosterone properly or something to explain low Total T levels. I normally put on 10 pumps daily(12.5g) as I figure some does not absorb or gets sweated off.

Jan 19 Endocrinologist - Blood work/Pituitary Gland tests: Quest Diagnostics(sent to labs: Miami, Atlanta & Virginia)
IGF-1 248 [106-255 ng/mL]
FSH <0.7 L [1.6-8.0 mIU/mL]
LH <0.2 L [1.5-9.3 mIU/mL]
Prolactin 6.3 [2.0-18.0 ng/mL]
T-4, Free 1.1 [0.8-1.8 ng/dL]
TSH 1.54 [0.4-5.5 mIU/L]
Estradiol 13 [13-54 pg/ml]
Albumin 5.0 [3.7-5.1 g/dL]
SHBG 16 [5-49 nmol/L]
HCG, Total OL Negative [Negative]
Testosterone, Free & Weakly Bound
T, Total 187 L [241-827 ng/dL]

T, FREE 51 [34-194 pg/mL]
T, F&W B 117 [84-402 ng/dL]

I did stop applying the androgel 2 days before the test, could that be why the Total T is so low?

Should I only stop 1 day before test so as not to give a false high reading?

I’m not sure what type of E2 test was ran but 13 seems to be the best score.

Am I correct that IGF-1 is most important for building muscle building and 248 seems close to top score? I really focus on Nutrition/supplements, protein/Healthy Fats & Creatine which all positivly affect IGF-1.

My Total T is a big bummer to be so low again(It was in the 100’s when Started HRT like 8 months ago,) the Free T’s seem acceptable while not ideal. Any suggestions or comments on what I can do to tweak my biology for maximal lean mass gain & health? I will ask Doctor about script for HCG, but right now he must be getting kickback on having me get a CT Scan of pituitary at lab next door, cause that?s all he wants me to do for now( and stay on the 10g Daily AndroGel)

Oh does 300 mg Saw Palmetto really help as an Aromataze inhibitor? I Take ZMA so that supplies the Zinc.

[KSman]

They tested you for HCG? Now you know that you are not pregnant! What did they charge for the HCG test?

Your E is low as there is very little substrate to make it from (T). Low amounts of E lead will lead to lower amounts of SHBG. Transdermal pushes up E and DHT<–not tested. So your E was probably lower before TRT.

You do not seem to be absorbing the T or your body clears it some how. You need to try injections. The delivery will be 100%.

Low LH and SFH mean that the HPTA does not want to make much LH and with low LH the testes are not doing much as they are not been commanded to work. In your case, replacing HCG might do a very good job. Easy enough, do the HCG then get BW after a while. The testes may take a while to respond as they will need to do some tissue changes to get fully responsive.

So yes your pituitary is not releasing LH. But it seems to be healthy enough in terms of HG driving IGF-1 levels.

GH&IGF-1 and Y ane synergistic, so one without the other is not the full game.

Free T in serum typically does not last long at all. Stopping TD before BW may be unwise. What instuctions were you given?

So I would suggest 250iu HCG SQ EOD and the classic starting dose of 100mg/wk test [cyp|eth]. Then do blood work after 2 or 3 months and adjust T as BW suggests after that. E levels will go up and will be higher than you are used to. You will need to watch for the signs of E problems such as low libido, loss of morning wood etc.

It is nice to look for the causes of changed pituitary function, but they cannot fix such things. They can look for signs of a pituitary tumour that needs to dealt with.

I don’t know any time frame for your onset of symptoms. Have you had a blow to the head, whiplash or vehicle accident in the few years before this started?

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
Finally got Blood Tests faxed from Doctor (Bill to insurance company was well over $1000, but insurance only paid like $150- was free, except $20 copay, for LiftingLarge) Doctor was not good at explaining these and just mentioning something about a protein not transferring Testosterone properly or something to explain low Total T levels. I normally put on 10 pumps daily(12.5g) as I figure some does not absorb or gets sweated off.

Jan 19 Endocrinologist - Blood work/Pituitary Gland tests: Quest Diagnostics(sent to labs: Miami, Atlanta & Virginia)
IGF-1 248 [106-255 ng/mL]
FSH <0.7 L [1.6-8.0 mIU/mL]
LH <0.2 L [1.5-9.3 mIU/mL]
Prolactin 6.3 [2.0-18.0 ng/mL]
T-4, Free 1.1 [0.8-1.8 ng/dL]
TSH 1.54 [0.4-5.5 mIU/L]
Estradiol 13 [13-54 pg/ml]
Albumin 5.0 [3.7-5.1 g/dL]
SHBG 16 [5-49 nmol/L]
HCG, Total OL Negative [Negative]
Testosterone, Free & Weakly Bound
T, Total 187 L [241-827 ng/dL]

T, FREE 51 [34-194 pg/mL]
T, F&W B 117 [84-402 ng/dL]

I did stop applying the androgel 2 days before the test, could that be why the Total T is so low?

Should I only stop 1 day before test so as not to give a false high reading?

I’m not sure what type of E2 test was ran but 13 seems to be the best score.

Am I correct that IGF-1 is most important for building muscle building and 248 seems close to top score? I really focus on Nutrition/supplements, protein/Healthy Fats & Creatine which all positivly affect IGF-1.

My Total T is a big bummer to be so low again(It was in the 100’s when Started HRT like 8 months ago,) the Free T’s seem acceptable while not ideal. Any suggestions or comments on what I can do to tweak my biology for maximal lean mass gain & health? I will ask Doctor about script for HCG, but right now he must be getting kickback on having me get a CT Scan of pituitary at lab next door, cause that?s all he wants me to do for now( and stay on the 10g Daily AndroGel)

Oh does 300 mg Saw Palmetto really help as an Aromataze inhibitor? I Take ZMA so that supplies the Zinc.[/quote]

[mark_nimda]

interetsing thread cuz I spoke with a a pharmacist named Eugene from the manufacturer and here is how he broke it town

The 5 gram pack equates to 50 mg but the absorption rate transdermally is 10% of that which equates to 5 milligrams of test. This is about the same rate the body makes daily (5-7).

In the clinical trials the max points were 545 with a max of minus 215 from that

Thereically, a 20 g pack would give you 4 times the amount of what the body makes but apparently it doesnt work that way. With a 20 g pack, you may see up to 3 times the amount as a 5 g pack. no matterwhat, even the 20 g doesnt come close to a 100 mg weekly test cyp

[mark_nimda]

[quote]V R wrote:

Plain and simple, shots are better. Your getting less conversion to estradoil and DHT.

By all means, if androgel is working for you, good for you, and stick with it. It works for alot of people. But shots work for everyone.

Again, Im not saying androgel is a waste. Trust me, I don’t want to go threw the hassle of injecting either - if androgel and shots were equal, NOBODY would rather do shots. But the very fact that alot of people “in the know” are either switching to shots, or starting with shots right off the bat, says alot for the advantages of shots. Ive never heard of anyone switching from shots to androgel. But the reverse is true in many, many cases.

And one more very important thing your overlooking - shots are insanely cheaper than androgel. [/quote]

all good and accurate points.

I too would love to see androgel perform like injectiosn. But I am a realist. The body only absorbs 10% of the dosage and even Solvay will tell you that

Lets get real here guys. Androgel does not even come close to 100 mg injectiions. Some are happy with androgel. But I have read many threads from various boards on the high expectations of andrel only to be dissapointed. But noone is diappointed with injections.

I might try androgel if my insurace will provode it becasue I dont want to be cycling with Cipionate for the rest of my life. So I am all for the gel.
But I am a realist.

And I gotta admit that to hear that someone went from very low to 1200 with andrgel well thats something that I would have to see for myself. Even if it were true, it would be the exception. Solvay told me today that the points gained from the clinical trials have been as high as 540, plus or minus 215 (or something like that).

[LiftingLarge]

Thanks for the responses. KSman seems to be an HRT scholar! LiftingLarges lucky day.

Had to damn near twist the Dr’s arm for the E2 test and did not know at the time which type (sensitive) to request. He finally
shrugged and said it would be low because I’m a male but had it done (Took 4 vials of Blood), maybe that’s the pregnancy test reason?

LiftingLarge has been feeling better energy & strength wise/ Mood wise than in many years. Morning wood anytime even get a
little drowsy and plenty of Libido.

Strength and size gains are ok, but not like they should be for the effort/intensity putting into nutrition/rest & Training.

"It is nice to look for the causes of changed pituitary function, but they cannot fix such things. They can look for signs of a
pituitary tumor that needs to dealt with.

I don’t know any time frame for your onset of symptoms. Have you had a blow to the head, whiplash or vehicle accident in the
few years before this started?"

No head trauma/injury, think he’s just concerned cause LiftingLarge in only 5’7 (Well ok maybe just 5’6) - Thus you can see
the need to put some more muscle on to compensate for the vertical challenge

“I don’t know any time frame for your onset of symptoms.”

Many endurance jogging miles in 2005/2006 - for 2006 marathon was 141lbs and very lean/low body fat. Was always tired/weak
feeling, irritable, lost complete interest in girls/libido/ no morning wood… figured just part of being 36 y/o. Finally
while over reaching during several 100+ mile jogging weeks and little cross training, stress fracture injury got LiftingLarge more
intensely into Strength Training. So Low T could have possibly been from extreme Cardio, but don’t want to cycle off HRT to
find out as life is great now with it. 158lbs today and feeling great after about 9 months HRT and different training philosophy (HIT & 4-5 days strength training)

“GH&IGF-1 and Y are synergistic, so one without the other is not the full game.”

Does this mean my IGF-1 @ 248 is not good or significant?

I think on my Bloodwork a couple months before this one my Total T was over 500, will look up other tests.

Thanks for the help and will do some Research on those shots( don’t even know where to stick them; is there a T Injection for newbie thread?) as the Dr mentioned most guys prefer those at this appointment so he would be happy to prescribe them.

OH BTW, Does anybody have a blank spreadsheet (ie: Excel, access etc.) or some type of chart that we can use to put Blood Test
Date and the results for each item tested and keep track of the scores over the years.

I would also love this type of spreadsheet to track my workouts with date and type of lift/ weight/ reps and possibly chart
out over a time period weights moved ( Just yesterday first time was able to Bench 5 sets/185lbs/8 reps)

[KSman]

The the TRT gets settled in, many stop referring to them selves in the third person

Your doc has be worried.

Your IGF-1 is at the high end, so your HG is good and pituitary is working well in that regard. With that IGF-1 level, combine that with high range T from TRT and you should have a winning combination.

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
Thanks for the responses. KSman seems to be an HRT scholar! LiftingLarges lucky day.

Had to damn near twist the Dr’s arm for the E2 test and did not know at the time which type (sensitive) to request. He finally
shrugged and said it would be low because I’m a male but had it done (Took 4 vials of Blood), maybe that’s the pregnancy test reason?

iftingLarge has been feeling better energy & strength wise/ Mood wise than in many years. Morning wood anytime even get a
little drowsy and plenty of Libido.

Strength and size gains are ok, but not like they should be for the effort/intensity putting into nutrition/rest & Training.

You seem to have some good results from your 9 months of TRT, so I expect that your E levels are reasonable. And good to know what levels and ratios of hormones made you feel good.

"It is nice to look for the causes of changed pituitary function, but they cannot fix such things. They can look for signs of a
pituitary tumor that needs to dealt with.

I don’t know any time frame for your onset of symptoms. Have you had a blow to the head, whiplash or vehicle accident in the
few years before this started?"

No head trauma/injury, think he’s just concerned cause LiftingLarge in only 5’7 (Well ok maybe just 5’6) - Thus you can see
the need to put some more muscle on to compensate for the vertical challenge

“I don’t know any time frame for your onset of symptoms.”

Many endurance jogging miles in 2005/2006 - for 2006 marathon was 141lbs and very lean/low body fat. Was always tired/weak
feeling, irritable, lost complete interest in girls/libido/ no morning wood… figured just part of being 36 y/o. Finally
while over reaching during several 100+ mile jogging weeks and little cross training, stress fracture injury got LiftingLarge more
intensely into Strength Training. So Low T could have possibly been from extreme Cardio, but don’t want to cycle off HRT to
find out as life is great now with it. 158lbs today and feeling great after about 9 months HRT and different training philosophy (HIT & 4-5 days strength training)

“GH&IGF-1 and Y are synergistic, so one without the other is not the full game.”

Does this mean my IGF-1 @ 248 is not good or significant?

I think on my Bloodwork a couple months before this one my Total T was over 500, will look up other tests.

Thanks for the help and will do some Research on those shots( don’t even know where to stick them; is there a T Injection for newbie thread?) as the Dr mentioned most guys prefer those at this appointment so he would be happy to prescribe them.

OH BTW, Does anybody have a blank spreadsheet (ie: Excel, access etc.) or some type of chart that we can use to put Blood Test
Date and the results for each item tested and keep track of the scores over the years.

I would also love this type of spreadsheet to track my workouts with date and type of lift/ weight/ reps and possibly chart
out over a time period weights moved ( Just yesterday first time was able to Bench 5 sets/185lbs/8 reps)[/quote]

[LiftingLarge]

Hi again,

Quick update and Question. After several months of trying to get my endo to prescribe HCG per KSMan�??s recommendations 250 iu EOD SQ he finally agreed today.
First I brought him that HCG protcal from Dr Crisler and he ripped into him as a �??kook�?? and I guess Endo�??s look down on D.O. ostiopath�??s

Well anyway he kept saying it is completely wrong to take both T & HCG until he read the first paragraph of that 2005 JCEM study that was posted here. So he did a complete 180 and now says it�??s fine but he prescribed something I�??m not sure is the right type of HCG �?? he is very bad with prescriptions and I always have to remind him my 10g daily for andro gel 4 pumps�?� He said the type used in that study is �??inappropriate for me)

Here is what he prescribed best as I can read his handwriting: Novanel (Chonionic Gonado) Disp + VIAC (10,000 iu) sig 250 iu QOG

What does that mean and is that the stuff I can do with the �??29 12mm ½�?? insulin needle in my belly fat??? He said his ancient book told him it had to be intramuscular and only last 30 days per 10000 iu vial- so I would have to throw away rest of vial every month.

At CVS they said it would only be $10 copay per month & 10000 iu vial. I�??m supposed to have this by Friday so his nurse can show me how to self inject and I guess �??reconstitute�?? the vial? Would it go bad in the1/2 to hour to get home? Should I bring a cooler?

Thanks for any help. My main concern is this Novanel what I should buy, as the stuff at Sam�??s club that was recommended was a different name.

BTW: does insurance usually cover needles and anything else necessary for HCG?

LL

[KSman]

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
Hi again,

Quick update and Question. After several months of trying to get my endo to prescribe HCG per KSMan�??s recommendations 250 iu EOD SQ he finally agreed today.
First I brought him that HCG protcal from Dr Crisler and he ripped into him as a �??kook�?? and I guess Endo�??s look down on D.O. ostiopath�??s

Well anyway he kept saying it is completely wrong to take both T & HCG until he read the first paragraph of that 2005 JCEM study that was posted here. So he did a complete 180 and now says it�??s fine but he prescribed something I�??m not sure is the right type of HCG �?? he is very bad with prescriptions and I always have to remind him my 10g daily for andro gel 4 pumps�?� He said the type used in that study is �??inappropriate for me)

Here is what he prescribed best as I can read his handwriting: Novanel (Chonionic Gonado) Disp + VIAC (10,000 iu) sig 250 iu QOG

What does that mean and is that the stuff I can do with the �??29 12mm ½�?? insulin needle in my belly fat??? He said his ancient book told him it had to be intramuscular and only last 30 days per 10000 iu vial- so I would have to throw away rest of vial every month.

At CVS they said it would only be $10 copay per month & 10000 iu vial. I�??m supposed to have this by Friday so his nurse can show me how to self inject and I guess �??reconstitute�?? the vial? Would it go bad in the1/2 to hour to get home? Should I bring a cooler?

Thanks for any help. My main concern is this Novanel what I should buy, as the stuff at Sam�??s club that was recommended was a different name.

BTW: does insurance usually cover needles and anything else necessary for HCG?

LL
[/quote]

Hmmm, another dude having to train a Doctor. What is wrong here.

The Doctor prescribed Novarel. If the pharmacy comes up with the “APP” brand, that is an OK generic substitution.

To reconstitute, you need to transfer the supplied BA water from its vial to the one with the powder. The water should be injected slowly to run down the side and swirled gently. Never shake. The nurse might not understand how fragile HCG is, as is HGH. It will be ok going home to your refrigerator.

You will want .3 or .5ml insulin syringes. If you add 10ml of water, 1/4ml will have 250iu. That will be “25” on an insulin syringe.

The injections are a piece of cake.

You have insurance. The thing about Sam’s Club is lower cost and you do not have that as a concern like some other guys who are out of pocket for everything.

Your 10,000iu at 250iu will provide 40 injections for 80 days. The HCG does last that long. I do not feel that it fades out. You do not need a vial of HCG every month!

HCG was developed as a female fertility drug where 2000 - 5000iu would be injected all at once. That is done IM. You are not doing that.

The 250iu EOD research was done with SC/SQ injections. So you know that injecting SQ will provide the type of results seen in the research.

Later, if you wish to inject less, you can add only 5ml of the water to the bottle of HCG powder and then inject 1/8ml or 12.5 units on an insulin syringe.

What are your T levels with the androgel? Getting tired of applying that? The transdermals were developed so that guys would not have to inject, which opens a larger market! But if you are injecting HCG, that sort of deflates the logic of avoiding injections.

Yes to the #29, .5ml, .5" syringe. You could also use a #31 as well, perhaps shorter too.

Fill and inject the HCG slowly, again to avoid damaging the peptides!

I was injecting T with 1.5" syringes, started with HCG and then checked to see if I could fill the insulin syringe with test cyp. Slow but works, injection rates are much faster. So now I inject .14ml/28mg of test cyp EOD IM at the same time that I inject HCG. (different syringes). So that is an option as well. Some insurance companies will pay for gel but not injected. That would need to be researched.

Glad to be able to help… KSman

[LiftingLarge]

KSman, Thanks!

I was worried Dr. may have prescribed a placebo as we had several heated discussions over the phone and he flaunted his 37 years experience and insisted the two could not be used together. Now he seems to be open to try whatever suggest.

I did ask about switching to the T- shots but he said he didn’t want to change to many variables right now but is open. I have never done shots and if androgel works I would stay with that ($30 per month FSA tax free money.)

Should i get my needles at CVS (Does insurance pay for these?) or buy them in bulk at SAM’s with alcohol pads or anything else you suggest I get for hCG? Do you need a prescription to get needles? The whole needle thing is pretty embarrassing and I don’t want anybody to know, so you are a fantastic resource as my Dr is too busy and only has outdated info.

The androgel( i still have pretty good extra supply stocked up so I just slather on 10-13 pumps a day with one hand and rotate shoulder/flank and quad it covers- it seems it doesn’t all get absorbed and leaves a light white residue sometimes. I usually workout 2-3 hours after application.

My Blood work from May 2007 was as follows:

Test Total: 226 241-827 ng/dL
SHBG: 17 5-49 nmol/L
Test Free: 65 34-194 pg/ml
Test Free W/B: 135 84-402 ng/dl

Every thing else (No e2 or igf) was in range except:

Urea Nitrogen(BUN) 52 H 7-25 mb/dL

BUN/CReatine 40 H 6-22 (calc)

AST 88 H 10-40 U/L
ALT 61 H 9-60 U/L

He did say something about being concerned about my liver or something( But i guessed it was related to high protein intake or creatine)

Wiki said this about:
How is Novarel Supplied
Chorionic Gonadotropin for Injection, USP, is available as individually packaged vials containing 10,000 USP Units per vial (NDC 55566-1501-0).

Store dry product at controlled room temperature 15° - 30° C (59° - 86° F).

AFTER RECONSTITUTION WITH BACTERIOSTATIC WATER FOR INJECTION PRESERVED WITH BENZYL ALCOHOL 0.9%, REFRIGERATE THE PRODUCT AT 2° - 8° C (36° - 46° F) AND USE WITHIN 30 DAYS.

So that is great if it really last longer, as I get a new vial every month at the generic prescription copay of $10

Oh is it ok if you sometimes go say 3 days instead of 2 or maybe inject 500 iu every 4 days sometimes? How important is it to be exact about EOD 250iu. I travel every week 1-2 days at a time and take my food in a small cooler but it may get warmer than 40-50 over 10-14 hours.

So this APP generic brand is okay to inject in belly fat? (My BF seems pretty low defiantly under 10% as I can only pinch 1/4" skin - it was measured last year at 4-5% by our works PT instructor(Head instructor lot of training and medical grade calipers,) but I have been adding about 2 lbs a month since then with a clean bulk- Up to 165lbs/heaviest ever - so it looks like I would only have to go 1/8-1/4" to get under skin)

I’m sure they won’t show me this at Endo’s as he insisted on IM injections- per directions. Do you just pinch a belly fold of skin and poke in needle? No veins/nerves to worry about? Do you have to wipe with alcohol before every shot?

I don’t understand this yet: "if you wish to inject less, you can add only 5ml of the water to the bottle of HCG powder and then inject 1/8ml or 12.5 units on an insulin syringe. " but I’m sure it will make since once I get the hCG and reconstitute it a couple times.

If you have the time, would love to see a sticky thread/FAQ/website on proper TRT. Your an asset to the T community!

[adultsxyz]

My Dr. prescibed Androgel Pump for me, 7g per day

I am 44 wm I have been on it for 3 months now, I have become stong as hell, and have lost 3 inches on my waist, and gaind 12 pounds of muscle. At 44 I am in the best shape of my life.

My body does not produce much testostorone, so this has been a life saver.

To the person that says the pharmacy messes him up, try CVS they always have it in stock, The androgel company gives you an atm card that will pay $20.00 per monthly refill, they also give you a coupon for the 1st batch free.

This costs me $10.00 monthly and my Dr. says I will be on this for the rest of my life which I hope will be for a very longtime.

Hope this helps.

[pat]

To answer the question…YES, it will work really fucking well. 10G daily should give you an testosterone level of approx 800 - 1000 nl/Dl, 20 G daily should give you damn near double if applied twice a day 12 hours appart (preferably with a shower in between. If your body cannot build signifigent muscle with a testosterone level of 1600+ nl/Dl testosterone level, then you have other issues. I would, recommend some anti-estrogens though as your aromatization will be signifigantly higher.
Do it, or send me your spares, I’ll do it.

[LiftingLarge]

Just went to an Endo apt. and thought I would add some to this thread and ask couple questions.

“10G daily should give you an testosterone level of approx 800 - 1000 nl/Dl, 20 G daily should give you damn near double if applied twice a day 12 hours appart (preferably with a shower in between. If your body cannot build signifigent muscle with a testosterone level of 1600+ nl/Dl testosterone level”

I will post my T test results when they get in next week, but that quote is highly optimistic. I have been on the Androgel almost 2 years and levels have been in 200-300’s. I did start HcG about 3-4 months ago and Doctor checked my testicals and said size is texture is back to normal so that is working well.

The andro twice a day seems to make good common sense, but earlier post’s said it wouldn’t make a difference. I don’t see how it could hurt so I usually put it on twice a day. My pharmacy still gives me 4 boxes(8 pumps) a month so I have plenty of extra.

My main question is about applying the androgel directly to the scrotum. I do this when I have a workout early morning and yes it stings, but it’s like putting aftershave on the first time you shave. It only hurts a minute and the discomfort is nothing compared to my workouts. But is the alchohol damaging my scotum or testies? I don’t have time to let the gel sit out for half hour and then apply. As long as such a fast & strong dose of Androgel isn’t harmful I can take the sting. But is this ‘Dangerous’?

Any idea of how much more gets absorbed? Say instead of 10 pumps on arms or thighs = maybe 5 pumps on the scotum? Anyone else apply this way?

Thanks

[pat]

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
Just went to an Endo apt. and thought I would add some to this thread and ask couple questions.

“10G daily should give you an testosterone level of approx 800 - 1000 nl/Dl, 20 G daily should give you damn near double if applied twice a day 12 hours appart (preferably with a shower in between. If your body cannot build signifigent muscle with a testosterone level of 1600+ nl/Dl testosterone level”

I will post my T test results when they get in next week, but that quote is highly optimistic. I have been on the Androgel almost 2 years and levels have been in 200-300’s. I did start HcG about 3-4 months ago and Doctor checked my testicals and said size is texture is back to normal so that is working well.

The andro twice a day seems to make good common sense, but earlier post’s said it wouldn’t make a difference. I don’t see how it could hurt so I usually put it on twice a day. My pharmacy still gives me 4 boxes(8 pumps) a month so I have plenty of extra.

My main question is about applying the androgel directly to the scrotum. I do this when I have a workout early morning and yes it stings, but it’s like putting aftershave on the first time you shave. It only hurts a minute and the discomfort is nothing compared to my workouts. But is the alchohol damaging my scotum or testies? I don’t have time to let the gel sit out for half hour and then apply. As long as such a fast & strong dose of Androgel isn’t harmful I can take the sting. But is this ‘Dangerous’?

Any idea of how much more gets absorbed? Say instead of 10 pumps on arms or thighs = maybe 5 pumps on the scotum? Anyone else apply this way?

Thanks[/quote]

Sounds to me like you are getting terrible absorption through the skin. The trick to application is the get it as thin as possible. If you see white residue anywhere that’s shit that is not getting in to your body. Any chance you could switch to injections?
You can put it on your balls if you want but I’d go for spreading it around your body. If you put 5 pumps on your balls, I’d say 4 pumps are pretty much being wasted. There is a limit to how much stuff a square centimeter of skin can absorb.
I got my numbers from the packet insert, at the minimum you should be sporting a 485 nl/Dl from 10 G’s a day. Try this if you want to:
If you are excessively hairy, remove the hair. Go the the girls section in Target and get a nice, course loofah and scrub the fuck out of your whole body and get all that dead skin off. Apply the gel where you can covering as much area as you can with out the risk of spreading to others. See if you absorption doesn’t improve.
If you can’t get it to improve, I think it’s time to look at other solutions.

[LiftingLarge]

"Apply the gel where you can covering as much area as you can with out the risk of spreading to others. See if you absorption doesn’t improve. "

Those were good points about hair and the loofah(never though about dead skin affecting absorbtion) but I was under the impression that the more area you spread the gel out the more likely it is to aromatize to E…

That’s why I have always tried to keep it in a small area and yes if I don’t really rub it in it can leave a white residue.

My previous T numbers were taken after high cardio days and I didn’t apply the gel the day before. This time I applied the night before, no cardio, ZMA, more fats in diet and I’m on the HcG so they should be better. I will post if they get in tomorrow.

I will say 5 pumps seem to soak right into the scrotum pretty fast and not leave any white residue.

[Headhunter]

I was doing 200 mg of Cyp twice per week, 400 mg/week. My Test hit 1469 ng/dl and my E2 was in the low 90s.

I now do 150 mg once per week, and apply 2 Androgel packs, once in the AM and the other at night after showering. I also will very soon add some liquid Arimidex, when it shows up.

My trouble with Androgel is: where to apply it? You can’t put it where you have hair, as that stops the absorbtion. I’ve used the top of my feet and the shoulders/arms where the hair is thinnest.

If you are hairy, that’s another reason to pin.

[Headhunter]

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
"Apply the gel where you can covering as much area as you can with out the risk of spreading to others. See if you absorption doesn’t improve. "

Those were good points about hair and the loofah(never though about dead skin affecting absorbtion) but I was under the impression that the more area you spread the gel out the more likely it is to aromatize to E…

That’s why I have always tried to keep it in a small area and yes if I don’t really rub it in it can leave a white residue.

My previous T numbers were taken after high cardio days and I didn’t apply the gel the day before. This time I applied the night before, no cardio, ZMA, more fats in diet and I’m on the HcG so they should be better. I will post if they get in tomorrow.

I will say 5 pumps seem to soak right into the scrotum pretty fast and not leave any white residue.
[/quote]

If you put Androgel on your balls, be prepared to scream, like Hillary being ass-fisted by Pat36! (joke from another thread)

[pat]

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
"Apply the gel where you can covering as much area as you can with out the risk of spreading to others. See if you absorption doesn’t improve. "

Those were good points about hair and the loofah(never though about dead skin affecting absorbtion) but I was under the impression that the more area you spread the gel out the more likely it is to aromatize to E…

That’s why I have always tried to keep it in a small area and yes if I don’t really rub it in it can leave a white residue.

My previous T numbers were taken after high cardio days and I didn’t apply the gel the day before. This time I applied the night before, no cardio, ZMA, more fats in diet and I’m on the HcG so they should be better. I will post if they get in tomorrow.

I will say 5 pumps seem to soak right into the scrotum pretty fast and not leave any white residue.
[/quote]

No there should be no difference in the aromatization level as it pertains to skin surface application. I wouldn�??t worry about aromatization at the current amounts you are using. 10 grams shouldn�??t put you in any danger.
Since you are taking exogenous testosterone your numbers should not be affected activity. That only affects production which you are producing little or none of your own at the moment, except the HCG might have prompted you production to crank up.
Skipping days would be the biggest reason for low numbers. I�??d say that wasn�??t an accurate test. Androgel has a very short half life, so if you skip a day and got to the Dr, for a blood test your numbers will be in the tank. I am glad you mentioned that, because it scared the shit out of me when you stated you numbers were so low. Don�??t skip any days ever unless you�??ve decided to quit androgel. You Dr. sounds pretty hip though, if you could go for injections, life would be a lot easier and much more predictable.
They are your balls, you can put it there if you want to, but try spreading it around one day and see if you don’t feel more.

[pat]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I was doing 200 mg of Cyp twice per week, 400 mg/week. My Test hit 1469 ng/dl and my E2 was in the low 90s.

I now do 150 mg once per week, and apply 2 Androgel packs, once in the AM and the other at night after showering. I also will very soon add some liquid Arimidex, when it shows up.

My trouble with Androgel is: where to apply it? You can’t put it where you have hair, as that stops the absorbtion. I’ve used the top of my feet and the shoulders/arms where the hair is thinnest.

If you are hairy, that’s another reason to pin.[/quote]

I want your doctor! He’s awesome… Where do you live?