20g AndroGel Daily = Muscle Gains?

[LiftingLarge]

Searched but could not find answers to these questions…

Been on TRT about 9 months. Started with Patch 5g daily, but that would sweat off and switched to 5g Androgel packets. Those were a time consuming/messy and switched to the new Androgel pump with 10g a day for over 6 months now.

The crappy pharmacy I go to has the most inept workers and I have to go back 2-4 times until they get my prescription right (Always have to order pump) - so many workers there and they don?t seem to have any idea about the androgel pump. Half the time they give me the packets or just 1 box (2pumps per box) so I tell them its wrong and explain I get 4 75g pumps.

Well they usually end up giving me 4 boxes of 8 pumps (2 pumps per box) and I now have an extra 4-5 months worth of Androgel and have a few questions:

1. Would taking 20g per day a few months be ?dangerous? and/or would it noticeably increase my strength training gains/ muscle growth?

2. Would applying 10g twice a day(Instead of 20g at once), say morning 2 hours before workout then 4 hours later help absorption and reduce the possibility of it Aromatizing into estrogen?

3. Is it normal to get a feeling of well being and energy after applying the androgel. I like to put it on before workouts for this reason but worry about heavy sweating during HIT- does that wash it off or actually absorb it into the skin better?

My primary physician was pretty clueless about TRT and just went to Endocrinologist who also seems ?lacking? Did not even know about the Pump and had to pressure to check E2 levels, but after further research I?m sure he had the wrong E2 test done.

He was eager to accommodate me with the Androgel and also mentioned some patients prefer shots. He prescribed the 10g daily pumps for a year! I also asked him to prescribe HCG but he just had me drop my pants and said my testicles were ?firm? and it was not necessary? very disturbing and I was sorry I asked.

Will bring him a copy of DO John Crisler?s MY CURRENT BEST THOUGHTS ON HOW TO ADMINISTER TRT FOR MEN -A RECIPE FOR SUCCESS-

Thank you for any constructive info/advice.

PS the reason I have to go the Crappy pharmacy is the first two pharmacy refused to fill the prescription saying 4 pumps a month were to much, even though that?s what?s my doctor wrote. It seems like the Androgel is still new enough that pharmacy?s around me don?t know how to fill them.

[Bill_Roberts]

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:

1. Would taking 20g per day a few months be ?dangerous? and/or would it noticeably increase my strength training gains/ muscle growth?[/quote]

First, I’m not familiar with Androgel dosing, so can’t be too specific. One fact about it is that the bioavailability is absolutely shameful, thus accounting for these extremely high dosages.

However, not having the specifics on it, I can say generally that if 10 g/day generates replacement levels, then no twice that dose would not be dangerous.

By comparison, replacement by injection is typically 100-200 mg/week. Doubling that ordinarily does not yield fast muscle growth, but some improvement. So if the 10g/day is comparable to that, doubling it would reasonably be expected to be some improvement, but not drastic.

2. Would applying 10g twice a day(Instead of 20g at once), say morning 2 hours before workout then 4 hours later help absorption and reduce the possibility of it Aromatizing into estrogen?

Applying twice as much to twice the skin area will get twice the delivery. Applying to the same spot would probably generate little extra delivery.

Aromatization shouldn’t be different either way.

It’s a slow delivery system so the timing probably makes little difference, though on the one hand 2x/day about 12 hours apart would give more steady levels, while applying only in the morning could give better retention of whatever natural T production still remains.

3. Is it normal to get a feeling of well being and energy after applying the androgel. I like to put it on before workouts for this reason but worry about heavy sweating during HIT- does that wash it off or actually absorb it into the skin better?

Don’t know.

Our Androsol product wasn’t affected by sweat but was a completely different technology. If the gel includes water among the ingredients I’d certainly suspect that sweat could cause it to be lost, at least if the sweat comes off taking some with it. (Perhaps not if drying right back.)

I also asked him to prescribe HCG but he just had me drop my pants and said my testicles were ?firm? and it was not necessary? very disturbing and I was sorry I asked.

It’s a shame, and this is a difficult area to get good medical help in. That is a reason why buying Mexican stuff black-market saves a lot of trouble. Much easier to do than finding a physician who would agree that for example HCG and optionally plus Clomid is something they should prescribe.

100 IU HCG per day, or roughly 250 IU 3x/week, would be a better protocol than transdermal testosterone replacement. Unfortunately, if the levels from the replacement are enough to be effective they are enough to suppress your LH production and thus worsen the problem of low natural production of T as well as probably result in reduction of testicle size with time, even if not immediately. Alternately Clomid might be effective, or using both can result in higher T levels than Clomid alone would but maintain LH production better than HCG alone would. However, while Clomid is proven safe for use of up to at least a year at a time, there’s some reason to suspect that lifetime use could result in loss of effect: not because it’s been shown with Clomid but because this occurs with the very-chemically-similar Nolvadex. So as a really long-term, never-ending protocol I would not do it, but the HCG is fine indefinitely.

[V_R]

a few points I would like to bring up…

1. Androgel is notorious for causing a higher rate of conversion of test to estrogen compared to injections. Something to consider when using 20grams a day.

2. Androgel is also notorious for causing a higher rate of conversion to DHT. Now DHT recently has been shown to not only be NOT as harmfull as previously thought but essential. Some of the latest HRT stuff coming out is showing how important DHT is to the body, and that people taking propecia/finasteride might be in for a world of hurt down the road. HOWEVER, at a 20g dose, that just might be enough to accelerate hair loss/prostate swelling. Too much of a good thing.

3. Constant spikes in test are also known to increase SHBG. Im not sure how 20g of androgel cause X amount of SHBG, but its something to consider.

Why not just opt for injections? This way its alot easier and safer to sneak in a few 400-500mg doses here and there, a few couple times every 6 months or so.

[LiftingLarge]

Bill Roberts & V R thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge on this for me. You both had some great points.

It seems like Bill thinks there is no real advantage to applying twice a day and V R sees the possibility of higher Estrogen levels a concern. I admit I?m pretty ignorant on how the shots/injections work and so far pleased with the Androgel pump and hope to fully explore its usage before I start looking into shots or pellets.

I was really hoping to hear from some Androgel users who have upped there dosage and what were the effects or maybe even some medical people. I was fearful to ask my own dr. these questions because he may deny my prescription. My insurance is fantastic and I only pay $30 for a months supply and that?s why one pharmacy refused to fill the prescription, they said each pump is $150 and insurance will never pay it- they were very rude and didn?t even check.

This daily 10g Androgel has really improved LiftingLarge?s quality of life so I don?t want to jeopardize ?overdosing? or negatively screwing up my hormones, but I still feel the desire to try increasing the Testosterone a safe level to build more muscle? This is T-Nation after all.

Little background on LiftingLarge:

About a year ago 36 yo 5?6/140lb LiftingLarge went to primary Dr for Pre Operation physical and Bloodwork/ CBC, which came back Anemic-Low white/Red Blood cell count. (Should be noted LiftingLarge was lifting small at this time and into serious endurance running (100 mile weeks etc? low calorie diet ? so that could be reason or Hypogonadic)

Sent to hemoglobin specialist who determined with LiftingLarge?s complete loss of interest in girls, irritability, lack of ?energy? , low red/white Blood cell count and low Free Testosterone count (I think the regular T was below 100 in one test and around 200 in another) to have my clueless Primary Dr put me on TRT.

After a month or two trying the crappy 5g patches and 5g gel packets -the first week or so once I got on the 10g daily pumps I got headaches, but that went away and felt euphoric for a week or so and now life is a constant, comfortable pleasant experience. Libido and performance is maybe better than early 20?s, great moods and Energy.

I can?t believe just increasing Testosterone can make such an improvement in my mood, enthusiasm and enjoyment of life.

That was how I found out about T-Nation was when these wonderful changes happened and I started researching TRT/HRT. But now I have multiple questions and don?t want to blindly experiment with my current well being. I do want to ?Tweak? my performance packing on LBM and gains in the gym. Gained over 15 lbs so far with BF around 8%. So here are some questions I would love feedback on from:

1. What is the ideal amount of Androgel to apply for most/safe increase in Testosterone?

2. Wouldn?t applying twice a day (even though more work/time consuming) be ideal for absorption and less chance of aromatization?

3. The Androgel is alcohol based (Not water) so wouldn?t apply hour or two before gym/HIT be ok? It seems like heavy sweating would make the skin breath more and suck in all the Gel(which evaporates/dry?s in minute or two on skin after applying?)

4. Is it a waste to take TRIBEX with TRT( since the testes stop making T?)

5. My primary Dr told me to take 50 mg DHEA with the Androgel( But isn?t this also a waste since I?m not producing my own T?)

6. On a drug test for work would I show something illegal in my urine if taking 20g Androgel?

7. Is it just physiological or normal to ?feel good & more energetic? after applying the gel?

8. If I went down from 20g to 10g in 4 months would there be ?negative?/adverse effects/changes?

Thanks so much for any help or input. T-Nation has really changed my exercise philosophy from endurance cardio to High Intensity Training and lifting heavy- Although I still have my one favorite marathon I will run every year.

[V_R]

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
Bill Roberts & V R thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge on this for me. You both had some great points.

It seems like Bill thinks there is no real advantage to applying twice a day and V R sees the possibility of higher Estrogen levels a concern. I admit I?m pretty ignorant on how the shots/injections work and so far pleased with the Androgel pump and hope to fully explore its usage before I start looking into shots or pellets.

I was really hoping to hear from some Androgel users who have upped there dosage and what were the effects or maybe even some medical people. I was fearful to ask my own dr. these questions because he may deny my prescription. My insurance is fantastic and I only pay $30 for a months supply and that?s why one pharmacy refused to fill the prescription, they said each pump is $150 and insurance will never pay it- they were very rude and didn?t even check.

This daily 10g Androgel has really improved LiftingLarge?s quality of life so I don?t want to jeopardize ?overdosing? or negatively screwing up my hormones, but I still feel the desire to try increasing the Testosterone a safe level to build more muscle? This is T-Nation after all.

Little background on LiftingLarge:

About a year ago 36 yo 5?6/140lb LiftingLarge went to primary Dr for Pre Operation physical and Bloodwork/ CBC, which came back Anemic-Low white/Red Blood cell count. (Should be noted LiftingLarge was lifting small at this time and into serious endurance running (100 mile weeks etc? low calorie diet ? so that could be reason or Hypogonadic)

Sent to hemoglobin specialist who determined with LiftingLarge?s complete loss of interest in girls, irritability, lack of ?energy? , low red/white Blood cell count and low Free Testosterone count (I think the regular T was below 100 in one test and around 200 in another) to have my clueless Primary Dr put me on TRT.

After a month or two trying the crappy 5g patches and 5g gel packets -the first week or so once I got on the 10g daily pumps I got headaches, but that went away and felt euphoric for a week or so and now life is a constant, comfortable pleasant experience. Libido and performance is maybe better than early 20?s, great moods and Energy.

I can?t believe just increasing Testosterone can make such an improvement in my mood, enthusiasm and enjoyment of life.

That was how I found out about T-Nation was when these wonderful changes happened and I started researching TRT/HRT. But now I have multiple questions and don?t want to blindly experiment with my current well being. I do want to ?Tweak? my performance packing on LBM and gains in the gym. Gained over 15 lbs so far with BF around 8%. So here are some questions I would love feedback on from:

1. What is the ideal amount of Androgel to apply for most/safe increase in Testosterone?

2. Wouldn?t applying twice a day (even though more work/time consuming) be ideal for absorption and less chance of aromatization?

3. The Androgel is alcohol based (Not water) so wouldn?t apply hour or two before gym/HIT be ok? It seems like heavy sweating would make the skin breath more and suck in all the Gel(which evaporates/dry?s in minute or two on skin after applying?)

4. Is it a waste to take TRIBEX with TRT( since the testes stop making T?)

5. My primary Dr told me to take 50 mg DHEA with the Androgel( But isn?t this also a waste since I?m not producing my own T?)

6. On a drug test for work would I show something illegal in my urine if taking 20g Androgel?

7. Is it just physiological or normal to ?feel good & more energetic? after applying the gel?

8. If I went down from 20g to 10g in 4 months would there be ?negative?/adverse effects/changes?

Thanks so much for any help or input. T-Nation has really changed my exercise philosophy from endurance cardio to High Intensity Training and lifting heavy- Although I still have my one favorite marathon I will run every year.
[/quote]

Couple things.

1. To learn more about injections go here http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1135091

2. Pellets are a waste, dont go there.

3. Everyone on androgel is keen on 10g, this is equal to 100mg in shots. This dose seems to mimic the natural production of test in healthy men

4. I wouldn’t worry about splitting 10g up 2 times a day. I would ditch the androgel all together and switch to shots, EOD. (every other day)

5. I think its 2-3 hours to wait until after application to exercise.

6. You want to get a product called hCG. Google it. Also, Im going to PM you a link for more info on it, and HRT in general.

7. DHEA isn’t a waste on HRT. Its essential. Try it out. Some have issues with absorbtion.

8. Unless your job is 1st baseman for the yankees, you’ll be fine. You have a script, always keep that around.

9. Testosterone is the greatest recreational drug in the world. Welcome to the club. Consider yourself lucky. Now go check that PM i sent you.

[KSman]

I would worry about doubling up on T for the obvious reasons, but also would be concerned for never feeling right again at the regular dose. The receptors may down reg a bit and increased SHBG may not come back down to current levels.

I would not sacrifice my testicles on the altar of physician apathy.

If your testes are LH/HCG responsive, then use 250iu SQ EOD. They will then contribute to T levels. If your testes are not responsive, then HCG will not help them. If your testes are sore as they shrink, then HCG will fix that too. This happens to a few. If you ever want to have [more] kids, you need to be on HCG. If your transdermals are effective, you will shut down and should also see another sign; your scrotum up tight instead of hanging.

[keaster]

[quote]V R wrote:
LiftingLarge wrote:
Bill Roberts & V R thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge on this for me. You both had some great points.

It seems like Bill thinks there is no real advantage to applying twice a day and V R sees the possibility of higher Estrogen levels a concern. I admit I?m pretty ignorant on how the shots/injections work and so far pleased with the Androgel pump and hope to fully explore its usage before I start looking into shots or pellets.

I was really hoping to hear from some Androgel users who have upped there dosage and what were the effects or maybe even some medical people. I was fearful to ask my own dr. these questions because he may deny my prescription. My insurance is fantastic and I only pay $30 for a months supply and that?s why one pharmacy refused to fill the prescription, they said each pump is $150 and insurance will never pay it- they were very rude and didn?t even check.

This daily 10g Androgel has really improved LiftingLarge?s quality of life so I don?t want to jeopardize ?overdosing? or negatively screwing up my hormones, but I still feel the desire to try increasing the Testosterone a safe level to build more muscle? This is T-Nation after all.

Little background on LiftingLarge:

About a year ago 36 yo 5?6/140lb LiftingLarge went to primary Dr for Pre Operation physical and Bloodwork/ CBC, which came back Anemic-Low white/Red Blood cell count. (Should be noted LiftingLarge was lifting small at this time and into serious endurance running (100 mile weeks etc? low calorie diet ? so that could be reason or Hypogonadic)

Sent to hemoglobin specialist who determined with LiftingLarge?s complete loss of interest in girls, irritability, lack of ?energy? , low red/white Blood cell count and low Free Testosterone count (I think the regular T was below 100 in one test and around 200 in another) to have my clueless Primary Dr put me on TRT.

After a month or two trying the crappy 5g patches and 5g gel packets -the first week or so once I got on the 10g daily pumps I got headaches, but that went away and felt euphoric for a week or so and now life is a constant, comfortable pleasant experience. Libido and performance is maybe better than early 20?s, great moods and Energy.

I can?t believe just increasing Testosterone can make such an improvement in my mood, enthusiasm and enjoyment of life.

That was how I found out about T-Nation was when these wonderful changes happened and I started researching TRT/HRT. But now I have multiple questions and don?t want to blindly experiment with my current well being. I do want to ?Tweak? my performance packing on LBM and gains in the gym. Gained over 15 lbs so far with BF around 8%. So here are some questions I would love feedback on from:

1. What is the ideal amount of Androgel to apply for most/safe increase in Testosterone?

2. Wouldn?t applying twice a day (even though more work/time consuming) be ideal for absorption and less chance of aromatization?

3. The Androgel is alcohol based (Not water) so wouldn?t apply hour or two before gym/HIT be ok? It seems like heavy sweating would make the skin breath more and suck in all the Gel(which evaporates/dry?s in minute or two on skin after applying?)

4. Is it a waste to take TRIBEX with TRT( since the testes stop making T?)

5. My primary Dr told me to take 50 mg DHEA with the Androgel( But isn?t this also a waste since I?m not producing my own T?)

6. On a drug test for work would I show something illegal in my urine if taking 20g Androgel?

7. Is it just physiological or normal to ?feel good & more energetic? after applying the gel?

8. If I went down from 20g to 10g in 4 months would there be ?negative?/adverse effects/changes?

Thanks so much for any help or input. T-Nation has really changed my exercise philosophy from endurance cardio to High Intensity Training and lifting heavy- Although I still have my one favorite marathon I will run every year.

Couple things.

1. To learn more about injections go here http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1135091

2. Pellets are a waste, dont go there.

3. Everyone on androgel is keen on 10g, this is equal to 100mg in shots. This dose seems to mimic the natural production of test in healthy men

4. I wouldn’t worry about splitting 10g up 2 times a day. I would ditch the androgel all together and switch to shots, EOD. (every other day)

5. I think its 2-3 hours to wait until after application to exercise.

6. You want to get a product called hCG. Google it. Also, Im going to PM you a link for more info on it, and HRT in general.

7. DHEA isn’t a waste on HRT. Its essential. Try it out. Some have issues with absorbtion.

8. Unless your job is 1st baseman for the yankees, you’ll be fine. You have a script, always keep that around.

9. Testosterone is the greatest recreational drug in the world. Welcome to the club. Consider yourself lucky. Now go check that PM i sent you. [/quote]

Some food for thought.

Androgel is not a waste. Many people do great on it. I know a guy that started with 151 ng/dl and went on 5g and got to 753ng/dl. I like it, but am going up in dosage this week ( to either 7.5g or 10g)

TRIBEX is a waste for you. Your already shutdown and HRT.

I agree pellets are not the best delivery system. However, levels are very stable.

If you are comfortable on androgel and feeling good there is no reason to switch to injections. What would be the point?

[LiftingLarge]

V R Thanks for the link. Will research there throughout the week. To everyone who has helped thank you.

So far I have concluded:

1: No reason/benefit to use more than 10g Androgel.

2: Applying gel 2 different times 6-8 hours apart seems like it would be preferable, but nobody else believes this.

3: Wait 2-3 hours before working out after applying gel.

4: TRIBEX is waste on TRT.

5: DHEA is a definite/cheap and easy TRT supplement. 50mg ideal for 175lb male?

6: Drug test no matter unless in professional sports.

7: If the TRT/Androgel is working suppose to almost feel like a drug.

8: Doubling the dose to 20g could cause adverse effects and leave me lacking when go back to 10g. Can’t ‘cycle’ like steroids/supplements.

9: Shots are best and cheaper, but I want to stay with Androgel for time being (And I have extra 5 months supply)

Will definitely look into HCG and present some literature to Endo. Does anybody recommend something other than DO John Crisler’s MY CURRENT BEST THOUGHTS ON HOW TO ADMINISTER TRT FOR MEN -A RECIPE FOR SUCCESS.

Will post my Blood test when I get them back from Endo, as they are taking long time because Endo was upset I was not checked for pituitary problem before started on TRT. Wanted me to stop androgel for 2 months so he could test, but when he saw I was about to flip out, he quickly said however since I’m doing so well he can do it with other tests, but they may not be 100% certain, maybe 90-95%.

Oh one question; Is long term use of HCG- over 1 year bad for health? Also if anyone could PM a reputable company that would legally supply quality HCG I would like to look into that in case endo refuses to prescribe or its cheaper than $30 month copay.

[V_R]

[quote]keaster wrote:
V R wrote:
LiftingLarge wrote:
Bill Roberts & V R thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge on this for me. You both had some great points.

It seems like Bill thinks there is no real advantage to applying twice a day and V R sees the possibility of higher Estrogen levels a concern. I admit I?m pretty ignorant on how the shots/injections work and so far pleased with the Androgel pump and hope to fully explore its usage before I start looking into shots or pellets.

I was really hoping to hear from some Androgel users who have upped there dosage and what were the effects or maybe even some medical people. I was fearful to ask my own dr. these questions because he may deny my prescription. My insurance is fantastic and I only pay $30 for a months supply and that?s why one pharmacy refused to fill the prescription, they said each pump is $150 and insurance will never pay it- they were very rude and didn?t even check.

This daily 10g Androgel has really improved LiftingLarge?s quality of life so I don?t want to jeopardize ?overdosing? or negatively screwing up my hormones, but I still feel the desire to try increasing the Testosterone a safe level to build more muscle? This is T-Nation after all.

Little background on LiftingLarge:

About a year ago 36 yo 5?6/140lb LiftingLarge went to primary Dr for Pre Operation physical and Bloodwork/ CBC, which came back Anemic-Low white/Red Blood cell count. (Should be noted LiftingLarge was lifting small at this time and into serious endurance running (100 mile weeks etc? low calorie diet ? so that could be reason or Hypogonadic)

Sent to hemoglobin specialist who determined with LiftingLarge?s complete loss of interest in girls, irritability, lack of ?energy? , low red/white Blood cell count and low Free Testosterone count (I think the regular T was below 100 in one test and around 200 in another) to have my clueless Primary Dr put me on TRT.

After a month or two trying the crappy 5g patches and 5g gel packets -the first week or so once I got on the 10g daily pumps I got headaches, but that went away and felt euphoric for a week or so and now life is a constant, comfortable pleasant experience. Libido and performance is maybe better than early 20?s, great moods and Energy.

I can?t believe just increasing Testosterone can make such an improvement in my mood, enthusiasm and enjoyment of life.

That was how I found out about T-Nation was when these wonderful changes happened and I started researching TRT/HRT. But now I have multiple questions and don?t want to blindly experiment with my current well being. I do want to ?Tweak? my performance packing on LBM and gains in the gym. Gained over 15 lbs so far with BF around 8%. So here are some questions I would love feedback on from:

1. What is the ideal amount of Androgel to apply for most/safe increase in Testosterone?

2. Wouldn?t applying twice a day (even though more work/time consuming) be ideal for absorption and less chance of aromatization?

3. The Androgel is alcohol based (Not water) so wouldn?t apply hour or two before gym/HIT be ok? It seems like heavy sweating would make the skin breath more and suck in all the Gel(which evaporates/dry?s in minute or two on skin after applying?)

4. Is it a waste to take TRIBEX with TRT( since the testes stop making T?)

5. My primary Dr told me to take 50 mg DHEA with the Androgel( But isn?t this also a waste since I?m not producing my own T?)

6. On a drug test for work would I show something illegal in my urine if taking 20g Androgel?

7. Is it just physiological or normal to ?feel good & more energetic? after applying the gel?

8. If I went down from 20g to 10g in 4 months would there be ?negative?/adverse effects/changes?

Thanks so much for any help or input. T-Nation has really changed my exercise philosophy from endurance cardio to High Intensity Training and lifting heavy- Although I still have my one favorite marathon I will run every year.

Couple things.

1. To learn more about injections go here http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1135091

2. Pellets are a waste, dont go there.

3. Everyone on androgel is keen on 10g, this is equal to 100mg in shots. This dose seems to mimic the natural production of test in healthy men

4. I wouldn’t worry about splitting 10g up 2 times a day. I would ditch the androgel all together and switch to shots, EOD. (every other day)

5. I think its 2-3 hours to wait until after application to exercise.

6. You want to get a product called hCG. Google it. Also, Im going to PM you a link for more info on it, and HRT in general.

7. DHEA isn’t a waste on HRT. Its essential. Try it out. Some have issues with absorbtion.

8. Unless your job is 1st baseman for the yankees, you’ll be fine. You have a script, always keep that around.

9. Testosterone is the greatest recreational drug in the world. Welcome to the club. Consider yourself lucky. Now go check that PM i sent you.

Some food for thought.

Androgel is not a waste. Many people do great on it. I know a guy that started with 151 ng/dl and went on 5g and got to 753ng/dl. I like it, but am going up in dosage this week ( to either 7.5g or 10g)

TRIBEX is a waste for you. Your already shutdown and HRT.

I agree pellets are not the best delivery system. However, levels are very stable.

If you are comfortable on androgel and feeling good there is no reason to switch to injections. What would be the point?
[/quote]

Androgel isn’t a waste, but its limited. Comparing it to shots is like comparing a 6 cylinder to an 8. 6 is good, 8 is better. Reasons why outlined above.

TRIBEX is fine, and hell, probably would boost test even more, given that YOUR TESTICLES ARE WORKING! How does one keep testes alive? hCG!

Again, injects are superior to androgel for the many reasons I pointed out above.

[V_R]

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
V R Thanks for the link. Will research there throughout the week. To everyone who has helped thank you.

So far I have concluded:

1: No reason/benefit to use more than 10g Androgel.

2: Applying gel 2 different times 6-8 hours apart seems like it would be preferable, but nobody else believes this.

3: Wait 2-3 hours before working out after applying gel.

4: TRIBEX is waste on TRT.

5: DHEA is a definite/cheap and easy TRT supplement. 50mg ideal for 175lb male?

6: Drug test no matter unless in professional sports.

7: If the TRT/Androgel is working suppose to almost feel like a drug.

8: Doubling the dose to 20g could cause adverse effects and leave me lacking when go back to 10g. Can’t ‘cycle’ like steroids/supplements.

9: Shots are best and cheaper, but I want to stay with Androgel for time being (And I have extra 5 months supply)

Will definitely look into HCG and present some literature to Endo. Does anybody recommend something other than DO John Crisler’s MY CURRENT BEST THOUGHTS ON HOW TO ADMINISTER TRT FOR MEN -A RECIPE FOR SUCCESS.

Will post my Blood test when I get them back from Endo, as they are taking long time because Endo was upset I was not checked for pituitary problem before started on TRT. Wanted me to stop androgel for 2 months so he could test, but when he saw I was about to flip out, he quickly said however since I’m doing so well he can do it with other tests, but they may not be 100% certain, maybe 90-95%.

Oh one question; Is long term use of HCG- over 1 year bad for health? Also if anyone could PM a reputable company that would legally supply quality HCG I would like to look into that in case endo refuses to prescribe or its cheaper than $30 month copay.[/quote]

1. Yep

2. Won’t really make much of a difference. Might cause even more on site irritation from overuse in the long run, unless your OCD about switching sites.

3. Yep

4. See above post. Costs are an issue though.

5. Not sure about exact dosing. Absorbtion is an issue. But DHEA is pretty cheap. Google it.

6. Yep, sadly true.

7. Use own feelings in conjuction with blood work.

8. Yes

9. Yes

Long term hCG is completely safe. However, its illegal without a script. Black market is cheap though.

[V_R]

On second thought, TRIBEX on TRT + hCG might not work. LH is suppressed when on hCG. Without LH, TRIBEX might be a mute point.

[keaster]

In response to VR;

I wouldn’t say androgel is limited at all. My example of the guy above would show this.

I just got a call from my doctor today and he told me my levels were way to high and we may cwant to reduce the dosage a bit. THis is cominng from a doc that thinks under 800 is low/not optimal. He considers 1200ng/dl top range. So, with HCG at 250 iu EOD and 5g of androgel I am above 1200ng/dl.

[Bill_Roberts]

[quote]V R wrote:
Long term hCG is completely safe. However, its illegal without a script. Black market is cheap though. [/quote]
I believe it’s a controlled substance only in some states, for example Colorado and New York, but not others such as for example Florida. Not a Federal thing as far as I know.

[V_R]

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
V R wrote:
Long term hCG is completely safe. However, its illegal without a script. Black market is cheap though.
I believe it’s a controlled substance only in some states, for example Colorado and New York, but not others such as for example Florida. Not a Federal thing as far as I know.[/quote]

Interesting. Can it be purchased OTC?

[V_R]

[quote]keaster wrote:
In response to VR;

I wouldn’t say androgel is limited at all. My example of the guy above would show this.

I just got a call from my doctor today and he told me my levels were way to high and we may cwant to reduce the dosage a bit. THis is cominng from a doc that thinks under 800 is low/not optimal. He considers 1200ng/dl top range. So, with HCG at 250 iu EOD and 5g of androgel I am above 1200ng/dl.[/quote]

Maybe limited is a bad word. How about “not as good” as shots ;).

Plain and simple, shots are better. Your getting less conversion to estradoil and DHT.

By all means, if androgel is working for you, good for you, and stick with it. It works for alot of people. But shots work for everyone.

Again, Im not saying androgel is a waste. Trust me, I don’t want to go threw the hassle of injecting either - if androgel and shots were equal, NOBODY would rather do shots. But the very fact that alot of people “in the know” are either switching to shots, or starting with shots right off the bat, says alot for the advantages of shots. Ive never heard of anyone switching from shots to androgel. But the reverse is true in many, many cases.

And one more very important thing your overlooking - shots are insanely cheaper than androgel.

[keaster]

[quote]V R wrote:
keaster wrote:
In response to VR;

I wouldn’t say androgel is limited at all. My example of the guy above would show this.

I just got a call from my doctor today and he told me my levels were way to high and we may cwant to reduce the dosage a bit. THis is cominng from a doc that thinks under 800 is low/not optimal. He considers 1200ng/dl top range. So, with HCG at 250 iu EOD and 5g of androgel I am above 1200ng/dl.

Maybe limited is a bad word. How about “not as good” as shots ;).

Plain and simple, shots are better. Your getting less conversion to estradoil and DHT.

By all means, if androgel is working for you, good for you, and stick with it. It works for alot of people. But shots work for everyone.

Again, Im not saying androgel is a waste. Trust me, I don’t want to go threw the hassle of injecting either - if androgel and shots were equal, NOBODY would rather do shots. But the very fact that alot of people “in the know” are either switching to shots, or starting with shots right off the bat, says alot for the advantages of shots. Ive never heard of anyone switching from shots to androgel. But the reverse is true in many, many cases.

And one more very important thing your overlooking - shots are insanely cheaper than androgel. [/quote]

I see your point. Lots of guys do shitty on androgel. I need the DHT becuase mine was very low. Hell I just started having to shve at age 20.
The price is quite insane. I am not sure why it is so much, but my drug plan pays for everything so I dont have to worry.

I did a little pro and cons list and shots do fair better.

One more thing, did you start your HRT yet?

[V_R]

[quote]keaster wrote:
V R wrote:
keaster wrote:
In response to VR;

I wouldn’t say androgel is limited at all. My example of the guy above would show this.

I just got a call from my doctor today and he told me my levels were way to high and we may cwant to reduce the dosage a bit. THis is cominng from a doc that thinks under 800 is low/not optimal. He considers 1200ng/dl top range. So, with HCG at 250 iu EOD and 5g of androgel I am above 1200ng/dl.

Maybe limited is a bad word. How about “not as good” as shots ;).

Plain and simple, shots are better. Your getting less conversion to estradoil and DHT.

By all means, if androgel is working for you, good for you, and stick with it. It works for alot of people. But shots work for everyone.

Again, Im not saying androgel is a waste. Trust me, I don’t want to go threw the hassle of injecting either - if androgel and shots were equal, NOBODY would rather do shots. But the very fact that alot of people “in the know” are either switching to shots, or starting with shots right off the bat, says alot for the advantages of shots. Ive never heard of anyone switching from shots to androgel. But the reverse is true in many, many cases.

And one more very important thing your overlooking - shots are insanely cheaper than androgel.

I see your point. Lots of guys do shitty on androgel. I need the DHT becuase mine was very low. Hell I just started having to shve at age 20.
The price is quite insane. I am not sure why it is so much, but my drug plan pays for everything so I dont have to worry.

I did a little pro and cons list and shots do fair better.

One more thing, did you start your HRT yet?[/quote]

I didnt know your DHT level was low!

DHT is the mother of all androgens. The past week Ive spent hours upon hours reading up/learning about it.

Basically, all these people on finasteride/propecia might be fucked down the road. In fact, now that its been on the market for awile, alot of people are having issues already. My doctor says he is treating a few dozen people who are sufferers from propecia.

So considering you

1. Are on an AI(no worries about androgels higher conversion to E

2. Have low DHT(androgel is raises more DHT

3. Have no cost issues

4. Have no issues with absorbtion

Id say androgel is a better option for you.

[LiftingLarge]

Thanks again for all the information. Not to beat a dead horse, but LiftingLarge is about clear as mud on this androgel/Testosterone ‘10g limit’.

Why wouldn’t more Androgel/Testosterone (Over 10g daily) raise my Testosterone levels from say 1000 to 2000. Don?t steroids do that very same thing- give you very high levels of Testosterone? like 3000+

Is more than 10g a waste because it will get Arromatized to E2 or can?t get absorbed? If slower absorption is better, why not apply 6-12 hours/2x daily?

This is just anecdotal, but I put on extra androgel (15-20g) for couple days and my morning wood was almost painful (Seemed harder and larger than ever) and would not even go down to urinate one morning for couple hours. I take that as a sign my T levels were jacked up to higher than ever and E2 was fine.

The more Testosterone in my body means more muscle building and faster recovery, no?

Also:
Can anyone confirm that a prescription is not necessary in Florida for HCG?

Found reasonable prices from one of V R?s links -someone posted cheap prices for it:
?prices at Sam’s Club with a Business membership. Non-business memberships do not get these prices:

10 ml Watson’s test cyp 200mg/ml $42 (around $100 at Walgreen’s)
10,000iu HCG kit $16.25 (lasts 80 days @ 250iu EOD)
100 #29 .5" .5ml insulin syringes $12
100 #23 1.5" 3ml syringes $18?
?HCG APP brand 10,000iu 10ml $32 incl. shipping lasts 60 days unlike Novarel which is 30 days.
Walmart speciality pharmacy 877-453-4566?

That would be cheaper than going through insurance/doctor.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

I believe it’s a controlled substance only in some states, for example Colorado and New York, but not others such as for example Florida. Not a Federal thing as far as I know.[/quote]

[KSman]

You can do more gel, but you are hitting diminishing returns I expect. You only absorb 10% at best.

When you increase T and DHT levels, there are effects from the change that are not sustained with the continued dose. And E will increase in response, along with SHBG. You might get a big hit from E (and big tits). You will need to be on AI.

If HCG is not a fed controlled schedule III substance, it is still prescription only.

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
Thanks again for all the information. Not to beat a dead horse, but LiftingLarge is about clear as mud on this androgel/Testosterone ‘10g limit’.

Why wouldn’t more Androgel/Testosterone (Over 10g daily) raise my Testosterone levels from say 1000 to 2000. Don?t steroids do that very same thing- give you very high levels of Testosterone? like 3000+

Is more than 10g a waste because it will get Arromatized to E2 or can?t get absorbed? If slower absorption is better, why not apply 6-12 hours/2x daily?

This is just anecdotal, but I put on extra androgel (15-20g) for couple days and my morning wood was almost painful (Seemed harder and larger than ever) and would not even go down to urinate one morning for couple hours. I take that as a sign my T levels were jacked up to higher than ever and E2 was fine.

The more Testosterone in my body means more muscle building and faster recovery, no?

Also:
Can anyone confirm that a prescription is not necessary in Florida for HCG?

Found reasonable prices from one of V R?s links -someone posted cheap prices for it:
?prices at Sam’s Club with a Business membership. Non-business memberships do not get these prices:

10 ml Watson’s test cyp 200mg/ml $42 (around $100 at Walgreen’s)
10,000iu HCG kit $16.25 (lasts 80 days @ 250iu EOD)
100 #29 .5" .5ml insulin syringes $12
100 #23 1.5" 3ml syringes $18?
?HCG APP brand 10,000iu 10ml $32 incl. shipping lasts 60 days unlike Novarel which is 30 days.
Walmart speciality pharmacy 877-453-4566?

That would be cheaper than going through insurance/doctor.

Bill Roberts wrote:

I believe it’s a controlled substance only in some states, for example Colorado and New York, but not others such as for example Florida. Not a Federal thing as far as I know.

[/quote]

[V_R]

[quote]LiftingLarge wrote:
Thanks again for all the information. Not to beat a dead horse, but LiftingLarge is about clear as mud on this androgel/Testosterone ‘10g limit’.

Why wouldn’t more Androgel/Testosterone (Over 10g daily) raise my Testosterone levels from say 1000 to 2000. Don?t steroids do that very same thing- give you very high levels of Testosterone? like 3000+

Is more than 10g a waste because it will get Arromatized to E2 or can?t get absorbed? If slower absorption is better, why not apply 6-12 hours/2x daily?

This is just anecdotal, but I put on extra androgel (15-20g) for couple days and my morning wood was almost painful (Seemed harder and larger than ever) and would not even go down to urinate one morning for couple hours. I take that as a sign my T levels were jacked up to higher than ever and E2 was fine.

The more Testosterone in my body means more muscle building and faster recovery, no?

Also:
Can anyone confirm that a prescription is not necessary in Florida for HCG?

Found reasonable prices from one of V R?s links -someone posted cheap prices for it:
?prices at Sam’s Club with a Business membership. Non-business memberships do not get these prices:

10 ml Watson’s test cyp 200mg/ml $42 (around $100 at Walgreen’s)
10,000iu HCG kit $16.25 (lasts 80 days @ 250iu EOD)
100 #29 .5" .5ml insulin syringes $12
100 #23 1.5" 3ml syringes $18?
?HCG APP brand 10,000iu 10ml $32 incl. shipping lasts 60 days unlike Novarel which is 30 days.
Walmart speciality pharmacy 877-453-4566?

That would be cheaper than going through insurance/doctor.

Bill Roberts wrote:

I believe it’s a controlled substance only in some states, for example Colorado and New York, but not others such as for example Florida. Not a Federal thing as far as I know.

[/quote]

Lifting,
Once you go above the recommended dose, 10g, your essentially not on doctor perscribed HRT anymore. Your on “Steroids”. For obvious health reasons, you can’t walk around day in and day out with a test level of 2000. Way to many side effects. However, you can safely cycle.

Nothing wrong with that given you know what your doing. I know of people on HRT who will cycle in higher amounts every once and awile, say six cycles a year, or more, for weeks at a time. However, these people know what they are doing. They know an assload about steroids, cycling, PCT, etc.

Basically, Im saying you can safely do this, but you have A LOT to learn.

I would start at the steroids section on this here website. Read read read. Constantly read. Hours upon hours for months. Once you know everything and anything about steroids, and are reasonably knowledgable, then you can safely do so.

Anthony Roberts knows his shit. Good place to start as well as this site. Has an online e-book. I can PM you some stuff about his website and more info if you want.