I"m going to 20rep squats program for a few weeks, 6 to be exact.
3 days a week pretty much like how it’s explained how to do it in super squats.
My question is the following:
I HATE doing back squats. I’m engaged to good mornings, I can deadlift till the cows come home, and I’m desperately in love with front squats.
But on this program do I have to back squat? It gives me a weird pain my lower back like someone is jabbing me with a screwdriver.
I used to be able to back squat in the 300’s (i know know that is shit for weight).
But I can deadlift 405 for reps (haven’t maxed that in quite a while), I can bench 265, and front squat 265 (ya ya my lower body is weeeak)… but lately when I tried to max my back squat I barely could put up 225.
I could STILL good morning in the 300’s though which is REALLY strange to me.
I’m going to the doctor to get it check out.
But in the mean time: If I do super squats can I substitute squats with Deadlifts, good mornings, and deadstop front squats?
Lets say nothing is wrong with my back (which is what I’m hoping). Should I just push through and work on my back squats?
Or could I benefit with just as much muscle growth if I was substituting with those 3 other bulk building exercises?
I don’t have a good answer for you but I’ll ramble a bit to keep your thread bumped…
My squat is pretty weak still, or my size and mechanics don’t support it well, or I’m a pussy, or something.
Anyway, I have to lean forward as I near the bottom or I’ll fall over backwards. So, I got some unsolicited advice a few workouts ago from a guy that squats more than me concerning a slight rounding of my lower back right at the very end of my lift.
So, while I think/hope my mechanics make the bottom of the lift dependent on my lower back, hence the low weight now (this might be something to look for), I’m hoping I can toughen up a lagging area and bust my squats into reasonable territory.
Y’know, I thought I was doing the damned things perfectly… I do now, ahem, of course.
Anyhow, good mornings and deads seem to be helping my weak point and my numbers are slowly improving. Like I said, just a ramble around the topic, don’t know if it’s any use at all.
Perfect question for me to answer: Just about all my leg training to date has been centered around the twenty-rep “death set”.
First off, you probably shouldn’t follow the Super Squats idea of progression. Adding five to ten pounds per workout and squating three times per week can’t be kept up for long.
Also, I was in the same position as you, wondering whether I could switch exercises but still use the 20-rep formula. So I tried it with deadlifts and haven’t looked back.
I assume this doesn’t need to be said, but a lot of people want to make little adjustments just to lessen the work involved. As long as one isn’t in this mindset some changes should be fine.
Don’t forget in the book that hip-belt squats are recommended. Should be much easier on the back.
Good luck.
Your max lifts are so incredibly strange to me. Amazingly weird I have to say. Suggestions? not really. bummer. I hear the hack squat machine works your quads and gives you a great pump! heh
Yea lotus, I have a disproportionate strength problem. Up until maybe a year and half ago I didn’t have anything else for gym equipment except a Pullup bar and two 10lb dumbbells, And two ankle weights (5lb each)… I usually just took all of those and did pullups with them. Assorted pushups and pistols. (Could do like 45+ pullups in a row back in the day)
I ran track for a season but he didn’t believe in lifting weights long story. Did gymnastics when I was younger, but liked hitting people too much so my dad had me box some…till I took that outside of boxing ring and blah blah long story.
I think it has to do with the fact that the only thing I ever did heavy all my life were pullups. Neural groove carried to this day. (would explain deadlift & bench i think).
Then I went to college got a real gym, and finally got to put what I had been learning from T-nation into action and put on about 10lbs of muscle.
(ALL HAIL OVT)
Thanks for the info guys (And the bumps vroom…I think my lower back is strong enough but I have thought maybe that is just my weak link…I’m going to try to get some video of my back squat form that should help too), think I’ve made my own informed decision (After I get my checkup).
To use front squats, deadlifts (maybe on a box- wish my gym had a trap bar that’d be awesome), and good mornings.
I’m going to add 5-10lbs to every lift every WEEK (not every workout). After doing a lot of reading the people that tried to do that every workout seemed to have burned out.
We’ll see how it goes.
And fuck a pump i want to GFH (get fucking huge). HAHAHA
I read somewhere on here the guys at westside only do full back squats in competition. When they train they just use box squats, have you tried these? (that’s what I think I read just throwing you a suggestion, though)
I’ve seen a 20 rep deadlift program which was proported to work well, but it was recomended that you NOT let the bar touch the grond on the bottom. You lower it to 1/2 inch or so of the ground or do it off a small platform and keep it just off the ground. I’m sure you’ve got some big hands man (know what I mean) but I think you’d need straps for this. Also, ever tried 1-leg front squats or 1-leg overhead squat? Try those for 20 reps. Maybe. Just thinking here.
I’d suggest going to www.elitefitnesssystems.com and reading what Louie and Dave have to say about squating.
This is coming out of Westside. These are some of the best squatters in the world and I dont’ recall them ever doing the 20 rep sets. And, I dont’ recall them doing squats three times a week.
If you’re goal is to increase the amount of weight you can squat and it sounds as though it is, you need to do two things: you need to increase your strength and you need to increase your speed.
You increase your strength through maximum load. You increase your speed through dynamic effort.
Maximum load requires that you do multiple sets of low reps, say 8 sets of 3 or 12 sets of two. Dynamic effort requires that you use say 50 - 60 percent of your maximum single and lift it as fast as possible. You can do this following the same rep/set scheme as your maximum effort workout or you could switch it up, say do 3 sets of eight.
In general you’d want to do each of these workouts once a week with 72 hours separating the two different (maximum v. dynamic) workouts.
The more advanced you get, of course, the more varied and disciplined your program structure needs to be to improve.
Excercises? Box squat. Back squat. Front Squat. Good mornings.
Xen, back when I was 18, I followed the Super Squats program and went from 140lbs to 170lbs in 8 weeks. It rocked, and I have the stretch marks to prove it. I did back squats, but I was 18 and in perfect health.
The idea is to stimulate as much muscle as possible, triggering T and GH release. Does any exercise stack up against back squats for that? I would say no. Furthermore, one of the key factors in the program is intensity. Breathing until your teeth hurt intensity, light-headed intensity, seeing stars intensity. If you can front squat enough weight to achieve that kind of response, go for it. Remember, the book says take your 10 rep max and do 20 reps with it. A front squat may be hard to maintain position on at that level of intensity and any kind of deadlift or good morning is asking for injury.
If back squats kill your back, see a doctor, but also consider hip belt squats, like has been mentioned.
Before I ever have one of my clients squat I always ask if they have back, knee, neck, ankle problems. If any exist, I rethink doing squats. Maybe you should put off the super squats program until you get your back right.
And btw, yes increasing 5 pounds each workout may seem like a lot, but its only 1 set. If you’re drinking that gallon of milk a day like you’re supposed to, it should be easy. It was for my 140lb, 18 year old ass.
actually my goal at this time is to get fucking huge
I’ve never had a problem box squatting my old gym (at college, I commute now) had a various boxes, they were used for step aerobics and shit but they worked well for my squats. Box squats are cool love 'em to death.
My current gym doesn’t have anything that I could box squat with, even a damn bench is on the complete otherside of the gym and the have so much machinery between the free weights and the squat cage that I doubt I could even get it over there. IF the bench wasn’t bolted to the damn ground.
Thats when I got good at deadstop front squats. Still helped me in the bottom position. And I don’t front squat any other way now
I’ve use west side cycles a few times… definitely gets my strength up. Though I’m not strong enough for squat speed days (I don’t think) I mean hell what am I going to use the bar
I need to add some size first.
20 Rep Squats seems to be the definite path for that. Along with proper nutrition. Which I’ve been getting in order. I’ve kept training but most of my focus for all of January was to get my nutrition right. Now in Feb I’m going to start bulking (not diet wise but training wise).
I’ll keep the Hip belt squat idea in mind… I think i can scrounge up enough plates from home and use two chairs or something.
thanks diesel I’m gonna take that into consideration.
We’ll see what the doctor says- this girl i’m messin around with is a chiropractor I’m gonna see after the doctor if maybe I just need to get worked on.
hey man. see you in berkeley next fall for the game?
anyhow, on your dilemma … i simply don’t see how you could do a set of 20 with front squats. supporting the weight for that long would to me tax my shoulders and upper back way more than my legs. as for deads, i suppose that would be doable. i have done some high rep deads but realized fatigue in my shoulders and back there as well. to really hammer the quads and hips on a set of 20 i would have to back squat.
hope your back checks out okay. i was in last week for an MRI on mine. results yet to come.
It’s too bad your gym doesn’t have a trap bar as doing those off a box would seem ideal.
I would consider trying dumbbell deadlifts with the weights to your side, not in front of you. This would largely replicate trap bar deads. You’ll have to use lifting straps unless you have a remarkably strong grip.
I know I’ve read a discussion on this very same topic and the conclusion was that 20 rep deadlifts could work as well as 20 rep squats. Like mentioned above, not putting down the weight at any time was part of the drill.
Let me add that 20 rep squats work for a while. I did them about 14 years ago and went from 135 x 20 to 225 x 20 in 6-7 weeks. I added 5 pounds and did the every other day or 3x/week. I didn’t add weight. In my opinion, it is a good stimulator but just not enough total volume or weight. Psychologically it also will make you sick after a while. Also, I found some strange training instances. Several years ago I had done 225 for 20 as a quick tough workout. It felt like it had when I first did it 14 years ago. One 3 day weekend, I put 300 on a bar on a power rack at home and did about 60 sets of 3 over the 3 day period. I went back and tried 225 the following day and did 4 sets of 25 very powerfully and didn’t have to go into the deep breathing method to finish each one. I was shocked. It was like hopping up a flight of stairs. I would honestly recommend taking the weight you would use for the 20, and trying to do as many sets of 5 as you can in 20 minutes. 15 x 5 in 20 minutes is do-able. Try to keep your rest at 60-90 seconds. Or you can alternate this with the 20 rep squats. Your weights will go up faster but you’ll peak quicker. You have to do work for the rest of your body too. Don’t use a box. This is just a suggestion OK so whatever you do go in with 100% confidence. How are you with dips, chins, dumbell shoulder presses and T-bars? Any shoulder issues? Long arms? Can you eat 4000 calories a day?
I agree with John K. A 20 reps deadlift routine was proposed in the past so Xen you can use deadlifts. If you leave the bar on the floor (typical deadlift style) before the next rep you may use more weight. If you don’t leave the bar the exercise is excellent for your grip. The problem is: don’t use this routine on a one day on one day off basis.
Better:
Monday: 20 reps Deadlift routine
Tuesday Wednesday: off
Thursday: 20 reps Deadlift routine
Friday Saturday: off
Sunday: 20 reps Deadlift routine
Hope that helps !
Luca
Deadlifts are a perfectly good substitute for squats in a 20 routine. You could also try barbell hacksquats.
If deadlifting you can let the bar touch the floor BUT dont let it come to a rest (unless you want to adapt the routine to that of a rest-pause one).
As for the frequency I would advise against squatting 3 times a week unless you are stagering the intensity/reps/weight ie. Bill Starr style. If going all out as in super squats you could get away with once or twice.
