Beamer: I can talk to him a little more specifically. I haven’t communicated with him personally for a while, but I’ve tried to keep up with his techniques and progress.
Let me drop him a PM or e-mail, and I’ll see if I can’t work out some more details. I’ll also give you some directions to where you can get the low-down on him too.
What physiological feedback clues have you guys associated with a refeed? For example, when I start feeling cold all the time, I surmise that leptin levels have dropped. Another example: when I overfeed in a maintenance state, I’m bouncing off the walls (literally; diving rolls are great cardio 
When I overfeed after an appropriately low cal diet, that hyper state is less pronounced and doesn’t last as long. Has anyone else been noticing little things like that, that could help with tweaking timing?
It’s very individual but here are some generals (I almost hate to give them because people fail to understand the concept of individuality and tend to misinterpret things):
Morning body temp below 97, >10% decrease in RMR/BMR, chronically cold hands and feet, preoccupation with food, decreased strength and/or performance, and most importantly a plateau in fat loss.
Thanks for the article, Joel. Now that I’m caught up, I think I’ve got a pretty good plan worked out for myself, but I have a question about my girlfriend.
She is 120lbs, 20% bf, and been training for almost a year. She is currently on a low carb diet with 2 cheat days a week and her results are plateauing. Soon she will start a more refined diet (around 1500cal/day, 39-89g carbs, plus any overfeeds)with more controlled cheating sessions, MD6, and probably NB3 with 3 cardio days.
My question: how much cheating do you think she can get away with? I know higher bodyfat individuals don’t respond as well to overfeeding, but would you still recommend two 8-hour refeeds, or maybe just one until her bodyfat drops a little lower?
Anyone feel free to chime in with your thoughts.
I’d try once a week at 1.1-1.2 times maintenace w/ the high carb approach and then take it from there.
Joel
Hey guys, how would this information apply to a guy just getting back into shape. I used to lift religiously, but with work, yada, yada, I balloned to 265, 35%bf (I am 6’). I have been on the low carb thing, nothing strict eating meat and greens (eggs and cheese) and Low Carb Grow and Udo’s choice. I have been following the HST plan. I am doing the Strategic Deconditioning now (9 days off) and I am now at 235lbs and I am probably in the 25-30bf right now. I think I am turning the corner to finally get back into shape. My short term goal is to get under 20% bf, i.e. losing bodyfat is my #1 goal.
I was told to refeed every 14 days given my current shape - mainly for psychological effect rather than physiological needs.
Anyway, what would you guys recommend for the newbie? I know that it takes a lot more to go from 10% to 7% than from 35% to 30%, but I know that a lot of the same principles apply. ALso, what type of supps should I be using.
Thanks,
Tim
Tallen234: While some might debate me on this, I honestly can’t see any reason for you to worry about refeeds right now. In fact, I wouldn’t even consider them until you’re at your goal of 20% BF. Let the cheat meals fall where they may, call them water under the bridge, and keep up the low carb approach. At your BF%, proper diet and regular exercise are of far more importance than elaborate dieting schemes. There are plenty of training programs that you can use with great results, and HST is certainly one of them. In the future, you might consider Meltdown; Ripped, Rugged, and Dense; or German Body Comp.
Best of luck!
Joel,
Just a quick question regarding leptin release: Leptin release is determined by the number of adipocytes and also carbohydrate ingestion. Is it the actual amount of glucose in the bloodstream dictating leptin release, or is it more about insulin levels?
Eric: I completely agree with you on Tallen’s case. I see no need for refeeds in this particular case. I do see a need for getting back on track and establishing consistent, solid training and nutrition habits. If you want to throw in a cheat meal every two weeks, then that’s one thing. But planned overfeeding will likely be of little benefit for physiological purposes.
Patman: I’m not J-Rule (duh!), but I think I can lend a hand. And, Joel, if I’m just flat-out wrong, then feel free to slap me silly and call me Sally. Or, you can just give the correct info:-) Anway, Patty Cake, insulin is what’s driving leptin and thus the reason for high GI carbs. In relation to the fat cells, the number does not change (i.e. the number of adipocytes is constant); let me clarify for correctnes: the number can increase but not decrease. So, in relation to leptin, it’s the fat concentration within the existing cells that will signal leptin.
It’s not so much carb intake as it is caloric intake. If you were eating 1000 calories daily of mainly carbs, you’d still have drastically low leptin levels. Just so happens that if you are going to increase your caloric to raise leptin levels, consuming high amount of carbs will yield the best results.
If you want to know exactly how leptin is expressed, I’d email John Berardi about as he’s done more research on that end of things than I have.
Thanks Timmy & Joel.
Thanks guys for the response. Given my current shape, I agree that there is really no need to “fine tune”.
Other than a multi-vitamin, Udo’s Choice and Low Carb grow, what other supps would you recommend. I am not really sure how many calories I am taking in, but it may be fairly low as my appetite has decreased on the low carb thing.
Thanks,
T
Tallen, supps are definitely ‘fine-tuning.’ Don’t worry about them until you have more information about your diet. A sound diet will create 80% of your success; supplements maybe 0.5%. Go for the big stuff before zeroing in on the minutae. Search the site for the excellent article “The Missing Ingredient.”
What are the symptoms of low leptin levels? I remember reading something like constant hunger?
I mean, what if instead of planning refeed days? Why not have a refeed day when you feel you need it. Would that be pushing it?
Great forums BTW. Congratulations to all the T-Mag people.
What are the symptoms of low leptin levels? I remember reading something like constant hunger?
I mean, what if instead of planning refeed days? Why not have a refeed day when you feel you need it. Would that be pushing it?
Great forums BTW. Congratulations to all the T-Mag people.
Bachovas,
Ideally you’d want to refeed before you really start to get those symptoms of low leptin to prevent them from occuring in the first place. Those symptoms were given by Joel way earlier in the thread and are :Morning body temp below 97 (due to drop in thyroid production), >10% decrease in RMR/BMR, cold hands and feet, preoccupation with food, decreased strength and/or performance, and most importantly a plateau in fat loss despite what should be a hypocaloric intake, and I would also add a loss of lbm.
Bachovas: I just wanted to formally welcome you, as I believe this is your first post (which actually posted twice! How Ironic:-)
Anyway, Kel really did a nice, concise job of rephrasing the symptoms. Once you identify when these symptoms occur for you (i.e. how many days of dieting), then this is when you’d want to implement the refeed. For example, if you know that by the fourth day of hypocaloric dieting you’re just ravenous for food, can’t think of anything else, and you’re exhibiting the physiological symptoms as well, then you’d want to implement your refeed on the night of the third day. By the fourth day, I would presume, it’s already too late.
Bill Roberts recently dropped some serious knowledge on the kids in the Hot Roxx Corner. Check this out:
[quote]"Actually I don’t see why to drop the HOT-ROX dose during the refeed. Decreasing tendency towards lipogenesis in the refeed would be a good thing, so the HOT-ROX should be helpful.
I know you’ve had a lot of extensive discussion on the Forum of refeeds already, but just to throw in another 2 cents:
Total weekly carb grams should be at least five times your weight in pounds, and not more than your low-carb calorie figure divided by two. For example, if you weigh 200 pounds and you consume 2800 cal/day on low-carb days, you need at least 1000 grams of carbs per week and shouldn?t exceed 1400 grams.
Daily protein intake should be 0.9 to 1.0 grams per lb on low-carb days and about 1.0 grams per lb on carb
days.
Fat intake on low-carb days should be sufficient to achieve the planned calories once protein and carb
consumption is accounted for. On carb days, fat intake should be about 0.4 grams per lb. More than this tends to increase fat gain from the refeed more than increasing anabolism."[/quote]
Now, if that isn’t high-quality, I don’t know what is. Of course, this is just a set of guidelines, but an extremely awesome and precise set it surely is.
As my dogg Ike said…Ooohhhh Knowledge. Exactly.
I trust Bill’s expertise and will be following his advice to the letter. Looking forward to my carb refeed.
I’ve got the cold hands/feet and I’ve only been on this low-carb diet for 2 days!! I thought it was the Hot-Rox but maybe I should re-feed on Thursday. I was hoping to hold out until Saturday on the 5th day and then go again on Wed. and Sat. for the 2nd week.