Teddy: I think that this approach to the refeed is a much more efficient route. Keep tooling around with it to master the technique:-) As far as the lethargy, I think you and I both know that this is to be expected with a low-carb diet. The relative massive rush of insulin will cause some crazy alterations in your normal, stable blood glucose levels. That’s why insulin is such an important hormone to manage.
Tony: Did you figure your calories by using Joel’s formula (i.e. LBM x 15)? If so, you may want to use JB’s formulas (for Massive Eating). In this case, just use the RMR equation, add the thermic effect of food and the activity multiplier. Don’t add in exercise expenditure. You’d want to take 85% of the final number you get. This would be the intake you’d consume on a Daily basis. Your additional energy expenditure would help create an energy deficit.
Tony, the important thing would be to keep tabs on your weight and fat fluctuations. If you’re not dropping rapidly enough or too rapidly, then you have to increase/decrease the calories or decrease/increase the energy expenditure, respectively.
For carbs, I would assume the lower the better. Make sure you’re getting in your post-workout carbs, though. Crank up the good fats, and let’s get the fat-burning machinery pumpin’!
Tony G: I am not understanding your immediate goals; are you trying to gain muscle mass or lose body fat? Most would agree here that trying to do both simultaneously will lead to poor results. You could try my Cheater’s Diet EDT program and lean out while putting on some muscle mass (but you’d have to use Mag-10 for that); other than that, you need to concentrate on one or the other.
After thinking for a while, I have decided to modify my refeed this week.
I cannot stand the extreme lethargy I get from loading carbs, and I also would like to utilize the carbs better while minimizing fat spillover if any.
What I plan to do this week is since I train M-T-Th-F (Meltdown), I am going to schedule the Friday workout mid-afternoon and start the refeed immediately after. Then, by the 8 hour mark it’ll be bedtime and I can sleep off the lethargy. Obviously supercompensation will be better after a workout than just starting it Sunday morning like I did this week. Plus, I can borrow a page from Lyle McDonald and on Sat. morning hit 45-1 hr. of low-intensity cardio to get things going again. This should work much better for me.
I also plan to load up on creatine during the refeed as it should be taken in better by the muscles.
Are those of you who are taking the low-carb approach (under 50 g/day) supplementing with calcium and/or potassium? In my old keto days I noticed a night and day difference in energy when I added supplemental potassium to my diet. I’ve also been wanting to try coral calcium and thought this would be an ideal time to give it a go.
Also, has anyone seen or tried “Loaded” by SAN? It’s got 100 mg. of each form of ALA, 100 mg. of d-pinitol, 10 mg. of vanadyl, and 250 mg. of some other acid I can’t remember that starts with a “g” and it is “supposedly” comparable to glucophage. Sounds like it might be an excellent supplement for the refeed meals.
Finally got a chance to read Joel’s articles…my computer would not let me open the file attachments so I had to use a different computer. Great stuff, Joel. Your refeed regimen is actually somewhat similar to Lyle’s approach. I guess great minds think alike. As my calorie intake is not so strict, I’m going to use the 8 hour refeed that you suggest except only once a week for now…it’s still a lot more carbs than what I was doing with Don Alessi’s approach so it should still help. As I get leaner, I will adopt the 2x/week plan.
Teddy: While you may get a better “supcompensation” effect, you may not get the optimal leptin response because a lot of those calories will be geared towards recovery instead of “telling” the body that everything is okay again. It has been both my and the experience of individuals I have worked with that the overfeed must be considerably longer when preceded by a kick ass weight training session. The 8 hour overfeeds didn’t seem to work as well in this regards from a fat loss perspective. Having said that, I wouldn’t go with a longer overfeed unless you were on an androgen due to the nutrient partitioning effects.
So, for individuals not using an androgen, I would highly recommend that the overfeed/refeed is on a non-weight training day.
I thought about that actually. One thing is that I rarely get sore after a workout, so I don’t seem to incur excessive muscle damage. What you say makes sense though.
I am sitting on two bottles of Mag, but I didn’t know if I wanted to experiment with it while dieting…seems like it would work better with a good solid bulking cycle. If my cals were lower I would definitely use it, but maybe the last two weeks of my cut cycle I’ll throw it in. I’m using Tribex and M right now. I’m trying out Don Alessi’s suggestion of these as well as yohimbine (the real stuff) according to my subscapular and suprailiac measurements. I will probably stick with these two for two weeks, then possibly switch to Mag. Lots of variables to consider here.
What about this? As Tribex and M are used 5-on, 2-off, what if Mag was used only throughout the refeed which would be an off day from the other two supplements. Obviously this is not enough time to see any appreciable muscle gain or anti-catabolic effect, but from the nutrient partitionin standpoint. Maybe?
Teddy: Gee Merry Christmas! Are you trying to set a record for most consecutive posts? Just messing with you, champ. Somebody’s gotta add the sideshow humor to these threads.
Teddy, Joel is definitely right and on to something. I feel that in the past, the primary emphasis of the carb-load was to reglycogenate (as to steal a word from Joel’s dictionary). While this should be one of the goals during the refeed of a dieting phase, it is not the primary goal. As Joel has pointed out again and again, it’s the signalling of leptin that is of primary concern.
By cranking up leptin, you are able to once again attack fat loss as if you were just starting your diet again. With leptin at full-force, you can crank up the energy expenditure (and deficit) and attack your diet without that lethargy, psychological deprivation and cravings, for a short period of time–albeit a longer period of time than you’d be able to if you just kept your nose to the grindstone.
What about if it follows a HIIT running session? Right now, I’m on the Methoxy Doube Dose, and I am lifting 4 days per week (5x5), and on the other three days, I’m doing HIIT in the morning. What do you think?
Also, if the refeed does follow a training session, in addition to being longer, do you think it should also be bigger? Thanks
Brent, I think you are fine; just consume some protein and simple carbs post HIIT.
I only recommend preceding the overfeed w/ a kick ass weight training session when on an androgen. When doing this, the overfeed will be substantially longer and because calories are drastically low, it will be of higher caloric value (similar to the way that a cheater’s diet refeed is higher in caloric value to refeeds while on a moderate diet).
Just like Sledge I’ve been on a low-cal “diet” for the last 2 years with great success dropping 32 KG(rougly 70 ounds) but I’ve succeeded in crashing my metabolism so that now no matter how I manipulate my eating I can’t lose any more fat. Any suggestions for “stabilising” a metabolism so that I can drop the remaining pounds? I’ve tried JB’s massive eating at conservative amounts (a few 100 cal lower than the equations give) and I immediately pick up fat. T-dawg has come and gone amidst a few others. Any tips?
Hey Everyone,
JOEL…I understand that one cant put on muscle AND lose body fat at the same time. Its a vicious cycle to say the least! My immediate goals are to keep what lean muscle I have now, and try to lose some of the body fat. As stated before I am 185 lbs, with between 8-9%BF. I would like to get down to 6-7% BF, BUT I dont want to dip below 180 lbs (I hate it when I get that sucken faced look when I get too low in body weight). Does this make sense at all?? I have been talking with Tampa Terry (she is freakin awesome) and she suggested that I use the low carb approach, but I am apprehensive of that cause I have NEVER dieted before. I have been keeping a food log and I am consuming around 3100 calories per day ( around 56%P 23%C, and 16%F), which seems to be about where I maintain my current weight. Does that seem about right. I know you stated JB 's formula seemed a little “high” and I think I agree. With your formula (LBM x 15), I should be consuming 2550 calories per day, which seems low to me if you factor in caloric expenditure from exercise and TEF. I am pretty certain that with my current caloric intake of 3100 calories minus expendure…would come to be around 2300-2500 calories. So, does that mean I should be taking in less calories or less carbs? Timbo suggested that I still use JB’s formula, but dont factor in expenditure and multiply by 85%, which would give me around 3500 calories! So, I dont know which route to go!
Tony: For a moderate diet, I recommend a 500 calorie deficit. To find your caloric intake when dieting, you would simply subtract 500 from your maintenance intake.
Now the hard part; what is maintenance? For most people, it seems to be somewhere around 15 x LBM; however, that doesn’t work for everybody, it’s just a starting point (some will have higher needs, some will have lower). Since you said you never dieted before and are 8-9%, I’m guessing you have a metabolism on the faster side. For these individuals, I usally recommend that they multiply 18 x LBM to find their maintenance intakes. So for you, this would be 166.5 x 18, which equals roughly 3000 calories. That is would be your maintenance intake (again this is just a starting point and its going to ultimatly come down to trial and error in finding out what number to multiply your LBM by). So to find your “dieting” caloric intake, you then subtract 500 calories. This yields 2,500 calories. You do not factor in your energy expenditure, just exercise moderatly, not excessively.
Just started the Cheater’s Diet EDT program for mixed hypertrophy and fat loss (yesterday); it is my first ‘experiment’ with my own program. I’ll keep you posted as to how I do.
Kind of a stupid question, but one I’ve been considering. If you suggest higher GI foods for the refeed, then would a mass produced white bread (like Wonder) be better for a refeed situation than a traditional multi-grain bread?
Good luck with your new program. I’m really looking forward to seeing it, and probably giving it a go.
Brent: I can hear my man Joel already, but I hate to put words into his mouth or his fingers. A low-fiber, white bread would be much more beneficial for cranking up insulin and leptin levels, and therefore for refeeds.
Joel-ie: That sounds great, brutha, and we’ll all look forward to hearing some more details on the protocol. You know, I know one fella who’s refeeding for 6-8 hours for every 40-42 hours he diets (i.e. one refeed every two nights). He says that he’s making relatively good progress, in the means of increasing LBM and keeping fat stable or even reducing.