Timbo–
The Anabolic/Metabolic diet is a diet by Dr. di Pasquale that’s been reviewed (two-part article) in T-Mag. In fact, I think it’s the father of the T-dawg and possibly NHE.
The basic feature of the diet is a 12-14 day ketogenic phase, then a carb overfeed for 2 days. Now the cycle begins, and you do a low-carb phase for 5 days followed by a higher carb intake (50-70%) for two days. Repeat ad naseum.
Hope this helps.
d/c
Timbo : Basically (regarding the Hoosiers) it isn’t looking like it. I don’t know what the heck happened cause they started the season real strong, but I’m just not seeing anything from them anymore.
The carb-up was great… but its good to be back to eating less and healthier stuff again. Some time last night I was craving my spinach and cottage cheese.
Has anyone experimented with coffee during dieting? I know that JMB speaks ill of caffeine but I’ve read some convincing studies that coffee does help increase insulin sensitivity. It’s one of the ingredients in coffee, and obviously not caffeine. But i’ve been drinking a lot of coffee lately and I honestly think it has helped a lot with fat loss. I am currently not doing any refeeds because i’m on Bromocriptine, which is working amazingly for me! Do you guys think I should still be experimenting with Refeeds while on bromocriptine? If bromocriptine does what it’s supposed to do I see no point to it, but any input would be cool.
Hogan: Those numbers look great! And they’ll be a great starting point. But, if you feel like you can handle more at subsequent sessions and this didn’t really give you the necessary boost, then by all means Crank it Up! No need to skimp here, and as long as you’re focusing on carbs, you’ll be in the clear.
Teddy: I’ll agree with Thunder on this one (i.e. lo fiber, hi water), although I’ve heard some opionion to the contrary. Just like hi fiber will ultimately limit the carbohydrate intake one can consume, a hella huge amount of water will do the same.
Thunder: More great info, buddy. Thanks for the Na+ stuff.
Question: I’m having some mixed feelings on the whole low-carb issue. I was originally thinking carbs as low as 30g and not even implementing post-workout high GI carbs. But now I’m getting mixed emotions and mixed responses. The primary goals–similar to anyone else–is to spare as much muscle as possible while losing as much fat as possible.
So, if you guys could give me some input as to how low I should take my carbs, this would be appreciated.
Timbo: I think you would be alright with eating more than 30 g. carbs. For one, you already have pretty low bodyfat.
I don’t know if you saw my reply yet on the Poliquin diet, but if you aren’t going to eat carbs post-workout, you need to up the bcaa’s or glutamine, esp. if you are trying to preserve lean. Personally I would use something like Surge post-workout and just stay low-carb with your other meals. I’m not doing carbs post-workout as I need to improve body comp a bit first. When I drop back down to eight percent, I will put Surge back in the mix.
I admittedly haven’t read through this entire thread, but I just wanted to give Joel’s “updated” Cheater’s Diet protocols a little plug…I did the diet for 3.5 weeks, during which time I went from 11% to 7% bodyfat, while maintaining, or possibly even gaining, a quarter to half pound of LBM (began diet at 201 lbs LBM, ended at 201 and some change). I was double dosing Mag-10 throughout the duration of the program.
Regarding the sodium intake issue, I wanted to share this email that I sent to Joel and Steve Coppola (my fellow guinea pig) a few weeks ago:
I had a little brainstorming session this morning as thyroid function was discussed by one of my profs in class; I figured that you two would be interested. Thinking back to Joel’s nutrition myths article, I think that there is a distinct possibility that increasing sodium intake would also help out during the updated cheater’s diet. Here are my thoughts; let me know if you think I’m a goddamned lunatic:
Adequate blood iodide concentrations are a must for sufficient release of thyroid hormone. Myxedema (hypothyroid syndrome/hyperthyroidism) results when iodine is chronically deficient (eventually leading to endemic goiters). Although the follicle cells of the anterior pituitary gland continue to churn out loads of colloid to attempt to increase TH (which, naturally, results from plentiful and effective TSH), this colloid is useless because the follicle cells don’t have the raw materials needed to iodinate it (necessary to make TSH functional). As such, T4 and, in turn, T4 output decrease appreciably.
Okay, back to the cheater’s diet. We all know that the best source of iodine is table salt. Most people don’t need to worry about adding salt to their diets simply because it’s in all the grains and processed foods that they eat each day. However, let’s consider the bodybuilder on the cheater’s diet. With the exception of my refeeds, I am living solely on meat, protein powder, fish oil softgels, and ground psyllium husk. In short, I ain’t getting shit for sodium (and thus, iodine) in me. I honestly don’t even think that my multi contains it. On my low calorie days, the signs of thyroid suppression are readily apparent: decreased body temperature, decrease blood pressure (it was 88/60 the other day), decreased RHR (48 in the middle of the day after walking around a bit), and decreased appetite.
All that being said, do you think that severe dieting is one more instance to really push the “supplemental” salt intake in one’s diet. All signs point to yes on my end, but I wanted to see if you agreed. Basically, I think that it’s a way to a) increase thyroid output on low-calorie days and b) magnify the effect of the refeeds (partially through the importance of sodium in glycogen synthesis). I think that the primary issue to consider in opposition to this notion is that the iodine deficit may not of sufficient duration to impact T4 and T3 to such a dramatic extent. Then again, in consideration of the aforementioned stats, I think that this argument ought to be dropped like a prom dress.
I’m thinking that this might be another one of the little things that could potentially make a serious difference. Your thoughts; Should I make my egg whites a little more tasty with a bit of table salt? God knows that I’m nowhere near the 2400mg RDA, which is unavoidable with a normal bodybuilding diet.
Timbo: Sledge is severe dieting on androgen w/ my Cheater’s Diet protocol. His caloric intake is very low, but this is the way it is supposed to be. Secondly, while you wouldn’t normally drop from 3500 to 1500 calories in one day, this is the way to do it with my Cheater’s diet. It doesn’t really matter because you will be overfeeding in just a few days which will pick up you metabolism from the crash.
Teddy: You want to consume highly insulogenic carbs; sources with little fiber content. Also, I highly recommend the ALA as well. I just take it with each meal.
Thunder: Funny you should mention sodium as Eric Cressey and I were having a discussion about it just a few days ago; seems that there are plenty of reasons to keep sodium high; I recommend it.
krystian: I would avoid the caffeine with the high amount of insulogenic carbs that are required to be taken in when overfeeding. As for bromocriptine, I tried it and found it not to work as well as periodic overfeeding and it costs a great deal more. But no, combining the two would be of no value.
Timbo and others: I don’t think there is every a reason to not go with carbs post workout unless you are conducting an extremely low volume session. Worrying about post workout carbs being stored as fat is silly; it’s not going to happen; however, neglecting them is a sure way to screw up your recovery and possibly lose LBM.
Joel
Currently I am at 10% bodyfat at 227 pounds (I’m 6’4"). I am preparing for a contest at the end of April, at which point I would like to be around 4-5% bodyfat. I am trying to take things slow at first so I won’t lose much LBM.
Right now I am eating a little over 3000 calories a day, with 100-150g of carbs. Here is a quick review of my split:
Monday/Thursday: 5x5 legs and shoulders. Evening cardio for 30 minutes.
Wednsday: arms, no cardio.
Tuesday/Friday: 5x5 chest and back. Evening cardio for 30 minutes.
Saturday/Sunday: cardio for 30 minutes.
How often should I refeed? I am pretty active, but my carb levels aren’t that low either. What do you guys suggest?
Right now I am at 10% bodyfat (6’4" 230 lbs) trying to get down to 4-5% by the end of April. I want to slowly progress until I hit my target BF% to minimize LBM loss. My split is as follows:
Mon/Thu: Lower body, shoulders. 5x5. 30 minutes of cardio in the afternoon.
Tue/Fri: Chest, back. 5x5, 30 minutes of cardio in the afternoon.
Wed: Arms, active rest.
Sat/Sun: 30 minutes of cardio, active rest.
Right now I am eating around 3000 calories a day, with 150g carbs (including my PWO shake). How often should I have a cheat day? I think that for the time being once a week should be fine, but I could be wrong.
Thanks for the help.
TO TIMBO-
Well Joel kinda answered you. My cals on non refeed days are that low(8*lbm)while taking mag-10 . Refeeds I bump up to 3000-3500. But at the same time I have been dieting for like 2 years now. It may have been my mistake, maybe Joel didn?t realize/understand that my cals had been low for a long time now. My cals weren’t as low as these are now but I have been in the 2000cal range for most of that 2 years. So I am starting to think like you are Timbo, my metabolism is screwed up. It is very frustraiting to me these guys who go from say 20% down to 13-14% in a matter of a few weeks while I have been hitting it for this long and still as high as I am.
So lets just say my metabolism is shot, how do we get it back up to a burning furnace?
–Sledge
Timbo, that might be true to a point regarding the high water intake. However, I guarantee that you won’t carb up properly without it. The only exception I’ve seen in people I consult with is those using insulin to carb up. Then it can work. As well, if you are choosing high GI sources that digest rapidly, I dont think you’ll come across any appetite issues.
Eric, great post on sodium as it relates to thyroid function. Very good points indeed.
The benefits to sodium extend much further, and not just in reference to a carb up, but in dieting situations period. Particularly low carb approaches.
Obviously when dieting low carb, performance CAN suffer in the gym. A high sodium intake, and I’m not talking the RDI either (since that’s still low) has a profound impact on blood volume. Increased blood volume has a huge effect on your workouts as well as increased nutrient delivery and waste removal. Not only that but by resetting the bar so to speak so that your body’s perceived baseline sodium intake is high makes it so much easier to drop water in the end. Water balance is affected by the relative concentrations of sodium, not the absolute quantities. Your body maintains an extremely delicate balance between sodium and potassium and after the initial adjustment, high sodium in equals high sodium out, and since water and sodium carry opposite charges (they hyrogen bond), sodium out equals water out. There is also the hormonal response to sodium intake to consider as well.
On top of the physiological benefits, there’s also the fact that it simply makes dieting easier. Adding salt to your meals just makes food taste better and who doesnt like snacking on pickles?
Anyway, I could ramble on forever on the sodium issue but wont bore you guys anymore with it. The take home message is simple – ADD SALT.
MaximDiscord: Beings that you are not really restricting calories, just carbs a bit, I would recommend a once weekly approach to reglyogenate. Possibly one day at 1.25 times your maintenance intake with a macro breakdown of 70% C,25% P, and minimal fat.
Joel
Thunder-In your experience, how long does it take for one’s body to adapt to a higher sodium intake? I’ve upped mine since I started the severe dieting and have felt pretty bloated and flat in spite of the fact that I’ve lost a few mm off of the skinfolds.
Eric, usually probably about 3 days. However, this is really dependent on the individual and what they’ve been doing up to the point they decide to increase it.
If your intake has been very low for some time and you increase your intake substantially, your body will supercompensate and retain more initially. There is the initial aldosterone and ADH response to go through and then the time to adapt to the higher intake.
I’m surprised you actually feel flat. Usually just the opposite happens. It’s strange to hear someone say they are holding water/bloated AND flat. It’s almost an oxymoron.
How high is your sodium intake now?
Honestly, it’s tough to say exactly how much I’ve been taking in, as it’s been somewhat of a hesitant experiment. I’ve basically just been sprinkling a little salt on each of my whole food meals.
I think that the “flat yet bloated” feeling has a lot to do with the fact that I’ve been low carbing it for quite a while (with MD6) and I have that “I’m all bone and muscle” feeling going on. I did, however, notice that I felt much fuller during my refeeds (which happened to include a large amount of sodium from salsa).
On a side note, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about how cortisol could be playing into this. I’ve been struggling over the past few months with a variety of different stressors, particularly a herniated L4-L5 disc that has caused considerable atrophy in my lower body. Simultaneously, I’m showing all the classic signs of cortisol excess: redistribution of fat to the abdomen and face, difficulty leaning out, an overall lack of pump, and insomnia (which has been a problem for years). I know that a cortisol excess can also lead to hypertension because it causes sodium retention and potassium excretion; maybe that’s what is magnifying my bloated feeling.
I’m in the process of really shaking this cortisol thing with a carefully plannned out strategy:
Hopefully, this will get me back on track. Current three site skinfolds of 15mm (ab), 10mm (pec), and 4mm (quad) put me at roughly 8%, and clearly show how problematic my BF distribution is. Damn carb intolerance. But I digress…
Just wanted to clarify after reading the rest of this thread…the protocol that I had the excellent results with was Joel’s Cheater’s Diet/EDT program. I don’t want people to confuse that with the “updated” CD recommendations that he gave higher in the thread.
Hey Everyone,
I’m back from the weekend! I HATE not having a computer at my house. All I was thinking all weekend was how I wanted to read what was being said on this thread!. Anyways, I sat down last night and figured out a decent diet, BUT I have a few questions. Based on my stats (185, 9% BF) I should be eating 2500 calories per day. Now, I am wondering, if I need to be eating 2500 calories per day, does this take into account my energy expenditure from working out?? If I expend 500 calories from working out, wouldn’t I have to eat 500 MORE calories to make up for it? Also, since I have NEVER dieted before, I am going to start with T-Dawg 2.0, where I am consuming 100 carbs on workout days, and 70 carbs on non-workout days…is this what everyone else is using also? Or are your carb totals lower (ie, 70 carbs workout days, 30 carbs non-workout days)??
Well it’s the “morning after” of my first legit refeed in a long time…and I feel pretty good. I went with 4 meals of 100-125 g. carbs and 4 regular low-cal keto meals. I exceeded my calorie intake a bit (just under 4,000) but I’ve been dieting forever and I figure the metabolism could use a little kick. The only thing that bothered me was about 4 hours after I began the refeed, I became extremely lethargic and ended up sleeping for a good portion of the rest of the day. Some of this was expected, especially considering I consumed no caffeine or ephedra. I’ll say one thing though: I’m not a huge EAS fan by any means, but damn that Vanilla Myoplex Mass mixed with fruit punch flavored dextrose tastes good!