In a real fight, this thread would already be over.
[quote]grayman19 wrote:
Nobody who trains MMA and has a decent head on their shoulders believes they are training for a real fight. Training for a sport where you have rules and referees to enforce them is entirely different than training to actually fight for your life. Too many Tapout bros seem to mistake the two as being one, and fail to realize they are training for a sport. In a sport, you can’t get punched in the eyes or groin, the other guy can’t draw a weapon, and nobody brought their buddies to help them, and you won’t get your head stomped in after you lose.
I’m sick of all of these real combat threads that are popping up on here lately. I never really saw this forum as a “real combat” oriented forum, but rather as a forum where people of various disciplines and backgrounds can share their expertise on the many martial arts that they practice[/quote]
There have always been these threads that pop up inevitably now and again. It can’t but arise when you’re talking about fighting sports, especially considering the moronic fanbase that seems to make up the brunt of MMA’s following.
It’s sad but true.
I hate this topic…people act like “in a real fight” other fighting skills are useless. Everyone knows that anything can happen in a streetfight…but to say that self defense techniques and other fighting methods are worthless is retarded…might as well never learn to fight at all and depend on your natural “mean factor” and the glock in your glove compartment that you might not have the chance to use.
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
I hate this topic…people act like “in a real fight” other fighting skills are useless. Everyone knows that anything can happen in a streetfight…but to say that self defense techniques and other fighting methods are worthless is retarded…might as well never learn to fight at all and depend on your natural “mean factor” and the glock in your glove compartment that you might not have the chance to use.[/quote]
Or you can train 6 hours a day and then get stabbed in your first “real” fight.
Seems to me the guys that train and fight in the ring don’t street fight often.
Your still not understanding my logic. TO STREETFIGHTERS, Fighters are people who can’t make the switch from something being for sport, and something that requires fight for survival. The sentiment that is being expressed is that in a streetfight “ANYTHING” can happen so your previous fighting skills render you useless. Fuck that. I’ve been in sticky situations on the street and in the ring… You’d better be damn sure i’d make the switch when it comes to defending my life.
Yeah yeah yeah you can have tons of hours of training and still get stabbed but are you better off knowing self defense techinques and having fighting various fighting skills? I think so. I rather train because in my mind it adds to my chances.
/rant
Im done…i’ve argued this point too many times to count.
I think if you practice fighting to be ready on the street you are wasting your time and fooling yourself.
If you practice fighting because you enjoy it then you are ahead of the game just don’t believe you are in an advantageous position on the street because it is a real unknown.
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
Your still not understanding my logic. TO STREETFIGHTERS, Fighters are people who can’t make the switch from something being for sport, and something that requires fight for survival. The sentiment that is being expressed is that in a streetfight “ANYTHING” can happen so your previous fighting skills render you useless. Fuck that. I’ve been in sticky situations on the street and in the ring… You’d better be damn sure i’d make the switch when it comes to defending my life.
Yeah yeah yeah you can have tons of hours of training and still get stabbed but are you better off knowing self defense techinques and having fighting various fighting skills? I think so. I rather train because in my mind it adds to my chances.
/rant
Im done…i’ve argued this point too many times to count.[/quote]
Well, it kind of adds to your chances. There’s a chance that those skills will help you that wasn’t there if you hadn’t acquired them. There’s also the chance that they won’t mean anything because it’ll be a shotgun blast from the shadows that gets you.
So you’re kind of right in a way, but it’s such a wide open field that the skills aren’t guaranteed to help you.
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
[quote]lemonman456 wrote:
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
[quote]RedFury wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i was thinking about this post for a while…here’s my .02.
in a street fight, guys like Mike Tyson and Rampage Jackson are gonna win regardless. they are mean, tough guys that turned to fighting because they are inherantly fighters (and have a true killer instinct). however, i think there are some guys that fight that are athletes, and use their respective rules to their advantage, and might not fare too well in a streetfight.
with that being said, i’ve had guys i work with make stupid comments about me training in kickboxing and BJJ, and even though i have them in skill, they’d “fight dirty.” i usually explain to them that i’m also bigger, mean and stronger, and all that “unneccessary skill” isn’t gonna hurt me against their dumb asses.
[/quote]
Uh, no, not necessarily. In a street fight, guys like Mike Tyson and Rampage Jackson might have an advantage over average Jamal, until average Jamal turns out to be carrying a Glock 17 and caps both of them. Or until Juan rolls up with his hombres and they all have blades.
[/quote]
Why Jamal and Juan?
why not Billy and Little Johnny?
don’t bring bullshit racist generalizations into this.
real fights are fights.
unpredictable violence.
take your chances
[/quote]
Why Billy and Little Johnny?
Why not Ahmed and Chi Chien?
don’t bring bullshit racist generalizations into this. [/quote]
maybe you should go back to the children’s table in beginners[/quote]
…
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
Your still not understanding my logic. TO STREETFIGHTERS, Fighters are people who can’t make the switch from something being for sport, and something that requires fight for survival. The sentiment that is being expressed is that in a streetfight “ANYTHING” can happen so your previous fighting skills render you useless. Fuck that. I’ve been in sticky situations on the street and in the ring… You’d better be damn sure i’d make the switch when it comes to defending my life.
Yeah yeah yeah you can have tons of hours of training and still get stabbed but are you better off knowing self defense techinques and having fighting various fighting skills? I think so. I rather train because in my mind it adds to my chances.
/rant
Im done…i’ve argued this point too many times to count.[/quote]
Well, it kind of adds to your chances. There’s a chance that those skills will help you that wasn’t there if you hadn’t acquired them. There’s also the chance that they won’t mean anything because it’ll be a shotgun blast from the shadows that gets you.
So you’re kind of right in a way, but it’s such a wide open field that the skills aren’t guaranteed to help you. [/quote]
OMG! I think we’re friends now! You never agree with me…haha…i’ll take kind of right thats enough.
[quote]RedFury wrote:
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
[quote]lemonman456 wrote:
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
[quote]RedFury wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i was thinking about this post for a while…here’s my .02.
in a street fight, guys like Mike Tyson and Rampage Jackson are gonna win regardless. they are mean, tough guys that turned to fighting because they are inherantly fighters (and have a true killer instinct). however, i think there are some guys that fight that are athletes, and use their respective rules to their advantage, and might not fare too well in a streetfight.
with that being said, i’ve had guys i work with make stupid comments about me training in kickboxing and BJJ, and even though i have them in skill, they’d “fight dirty.” i usually explain to them that i’m also bigger, mean and stronger, and all that “unneccessary skill” isn’t gonna hurt me against their dumb asses.
[/quote]
Uh, no, not necessarily. In a street fight, guys like Mike Tyson and Rampage Jackson might have an advantage over average Jamal, until average Jamal turns out to be carrying a Glock 17 and caps both of them. Or until Juan rolls up with his hombres and they all have blades.
[/quote]
Why Jamal and Juan?
why not Billy and Little Johnny?
don’t bring bullshit racist generalizations into this.
real fights are fights.
unpredictable violence.
take your chances
[/quote]
Why Billy and Little Johnny?
Why not Ahmed and Chi Chien?
don’t bring bullshit racist generalizations into this. [/quote]
maybe you should go back to the children’s table in beginners[/quote]
You know Juan and Jamal are much more likely to get in a fight. Don’t be an idiot, look at crime reports in your city.
[/quote]
Ok just say your a racist and move on.
NYC is fucking expensive- crime is much lower here then you think.
[quote]grayman19 wrote:
Nobody who trains MMA and has a decent head on their shoulders believes they are training for a real fight.
[/quote]
I really wish that were true but it’s not. There is definitely carry over between sport MMA and reality self defense though.
Absolutely.
[quote]
I’m sick of all of these real combat threads that are popping up on here lately. I never really saw this forum as a “real combat” oriented forum, but rather as a forum where people of various disciplines and backgrounds can share their expertise on the many martial arts that they practice[/quote]
What if the arts that they practice are primarily concerned with real combat though?
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:I really wish that were true but it’s not. There is definitely carry over between sport MMA and reality self defense though.
Absolutely.
What if the arts that they practice are primarily concerned with real combat though?[/quote]
I don’t think someone is looking to hit you while you’re not looking then have his friends kick you in the face while you’re on the ground in sport MMA. Boxing, MMA, and martial arts are sports. They’re meant for the purpose of competition. Street fights aren’t two combatants looking to prove who’s the best man, they’re most likely a group of people wanting to attack you.
I’m going to have to side with the majority on this one; combat sport experience most likely wont help you in a street fight… Unless you’re built like a linebacker and hit like an asteroid.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
Your still not understanding my logic. TO STREETFIGHTERS, Fighters are people who can’t make the switch from something being for sport, and something that requires fight for survival. The sentiment that is being expressed is that in a streetfight “ANYTHING” can happen so your previous fighting skills render you useless. Fuck that. I’ve been in sticky situations on the street and in the ring… You’d better be damn sure i’d make the switch when it comes to defending my life.
Yeah yeah yeah you can have tons of hours of training and still get stabbed but are you better off knowing self defense techinques and having fighting various fighting skills? I think so. I rather train because in my mind it adds to my chances.
/rant
Im done…i’ve argued this point too many times to count.[/quote]
Well, it kind of adds to your chances. There’s a chance that those skills will help you that wasn’t there if you hadn’t acquired them. There’s also the chance that they won’t mean anything because it’ll be a shotgun blast from the shadows that gets you.
So you’re kind of right in a way, but it’s such a wide open field that the skills aren’t guaranteed to help you. [/quote]
You obviously have not been to many Steven Seagal movies.
[quote]goldengloves wrote:
[/quote]
I didn’t say that all of what is appropriate in sport MMA is also appropriate in self defense, just that there is some carryover.
The distancing, accuracy, evasiveness, mobility/footwork and punching power that boxing/kickboxing/muay thai develops will make it much more difficult to get knocked out (even by an armed attacker). The balance and understanding of leverage and body positioning developed by arts like wrestling/judo/jiu-jitsu/etc… will make it much less likely that someone winds up on the ground in the first place (and therefore vastly reduces their mobility).
Obviously there is a lot more to the subject of self defense; I’m just pointing out that there is carryover between the two and that gaining skill in sport MMA disciplines can improve one’s ability to defend oneself in a real combat situation. They just have to realize that the two are different and understand which skills are appropriate for which situation.
Boxing and MMA yes, they are sports. But not all martial arts are sports.
“Martial” arts simply means arts pertaining to war.
Learning to fire a gun quickly and accurately is a martial art, the military teaches it to all of it’s soldiers and although there are such things as shooting competitions it’s also very applicable for actual wartime scenarios.
Learning how to effectively kill with, or survive, a blade is a martial art (though there are sports that were developed to hone one’s skills such as fencing, Kendo, even sport knife fighting).
Learning how to use other weapons such as structural weapons (a plate glass window, a parked/or even moving car, a wall, the ground, a tree or lamppost, etc…), impact weapons (a pool cue, a beer bottle, a rock, etc…), and projectile weapons (a handful of sand/grass/bar nuts/etc…, a hot cup of coffee, etc…) to their maximal potential is a martial art but there is no sport equivalent.
Learning how to effectively use things like bites, eye attacks, body handles and nerve attacks is a martial art, but none of these things (maybe some of the nerve attacks, but that’s about it) have sports associated with them.
That’s one possible type of street fight, but not the only one. And yes, there are even real street fights where it’s just two guys looking to prove who is the better fighter. They don’t make up the majority of real fights, but they do occur.
[quote]
I’m going to have to side with the majority on this one; combat sport experience most likely wont help you in a street fight… Unless you’re built like a linebacker and hit like an asteroid.[/quote]
That’s just not looking realistically at what is learned in combat sports vs reality self defense, or not looking at the full spectrum of what constitutes a “street fight”. They most definitely are not the same thing, but there is carry over between the two.
Sento, as usual is outlining his points well and I agree with them.
That’s the thing here- there’s no definite answer. Will these skills help you? Maybe.
For instance, the other day I went to the Adamek fight and very nearly had a confrontation with a drunk pole in the aisle of the arena.
Would my boxing skills have helped me there? Well, yes. But if he had 14 friends that saw it and got up and came after me then? No, they wouldn’t.
There’s different degrees of violence and different levels of responses. I’ve ALWAYS said that boxing is the best for the street because it teaches you how to hit, not get hit, and stay on your feet so you can run the fuck away. But in some scenarios it’s just not going to matter.
And of course, you could live your whole life and get in three serious altercations where any martial art, even having a gun, wouldn’t help. Or you could be like me and get into a dozen where boxing helped you out. Luck of the draw.
What I’m trying to say is that it’s not a question of “It will always help” or “It will never help.” IT’s more like, “Would it help me out in the scenario I’m likely to face? Is it worth training consistently even though I know that it won’t act as a safety net?”
Sento, it’s not that I disagree that combat sports can’t help you in a fight, it’s that the majority of times you could get in a street fight it’ll most likely be people trying to jump you or do something else cowardly. However,
[quote]goldengloves wrote:
Sento, it’s not that I disagree that combat sports can’t help you in a fight, it’s that the majority of times you could get in a street fight it’ll most likely be people trying to jump you or do something else cowardly. However,[/quote]
You could definitely get jumped, but depending on whether you’re a male or female, what scenes you frequent, and your neighborhood you may be just as likely to encounter beligerent “tough guys” at a bar or party, or a date/family friend/relative who tries to force themselves on you, or a strung out drug addict desperate for money to support their habit, etc…
Like Irish said above, the topic of reality combat is a huge one, there are too many variables to be able to say unequivocally whether or not one skill set is going to get you out alive or not. Attaining skill in as many possible (effective/useful) skill sets as possible will however give someone the best chances of surviving the widest range of potential situations they might find themselves in; and some of the sport MMA skill sets/arts are among the best (arguably THE best in some cases) at teaching some of those skill sets.
[quote]goldengloves wrote:
Sento, it’s not that I disagree that combat sports can’t help you in a fight, it’s that the majority of times you could get in a street fight it’ll most likely be people trying to jump you or do something else cowardly. However,[/quote]
Don’t hang out in back alley’s. A lot of people here are acting like everyone will end up getting jumped and then gangbanged at least once in their life.
[quote]lemonman456 wrote:
[quote]goldengloves wrote:
Sento, it’s not that I disagree that combat sports can’t help you in a fight, it’s that the majority of times you could get in a street fight it’ll most likely be people trying to jump you or do something else cowardly. However,[/quote]
Don’t hang out in back alley’s. A lot of people here are acting like everyone will end up getting jumped and then gangbanged at least once in their life.[/quote]
Not really, but some of us are or were cops or bouncers. Fighting is part of the job.
[quote]666Rich wrote:
Yes, I had been a member of sherdog since like 02. I never go on the forums anymore as they are filled with abject morons. The combat forum on this site has more knowledgeable people by far. [/quote]
I need to utilize the word abject more often in my regular vocabulary.