WSP vs Destroying Fat

Training Beginners
1

Hello everyone,

I’ve been reading the T-Nation forums/articles for quite some time now, but I’ve decided to actually make a post. I’ve been training for 2 years, with some breaks in between. I’m currently 196lbs and around 14-16% body fat. My goal is to get down to 10% body fat. I’m pretty unhappy with my current routine and have decided to finally give WSP or Destroying fat a try in a few weeks.

I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on which would be better for my goals. I know both are about losing body fat and that’s why I’m unsure which to use.

Also on the WSP article, Waterbury lists Flameout and Surge Recovery as supplements to take while on the WSP. As it is Christmas time, I will have some extra funds around to purchase other supplements to help attain my goal. Any advice on which products I should pick up that would best help my goals?

Thanks in advance

2

If you’ve been training for 2 years, I would take a long hard look at Destroying Fat. It’s tough to find holes in Thib’s logic, and it is designed specifically to protect strength and lean mass while whittling down the fat.

As for supplements, I’d spend the money on a high quality diet instead. If you can do both, Flameout and HOT-ROX maybe?

Good Luck!

3

I’ve used both with success. Most important (I believe) was following CT’s Destroying Fat diet/carb protocols. I went from 210 to 170 in 5 months, used both workouts for variety. Again, I struggle on losing the any significant weight until the diet got dialed in.

4

Destroying Fat is a great program. Whatever program you do decide to follow, you must follow a good diet.

I really like Flameout as a supp to use all the time.

If decide to follow Destroying Fat, you likely won’t be using any Surge Recovery as your daily carb total would be very very low.

5

I have not used Destroying Fat.

I have used the WSP to great effect. I dropped about 20lbs in 8 weeks.

My diet had to be fucking anal to do that. And pretty low (roughly 2500kcal on the AD).

I lost a good bit of strength though. At the end, I was having trouble doing a 315 back squat. Typically, my max is ~ 365.

It was effective, but it had some costs.

Don’t use Surge. Fish oil is good for fat loss, but I didn’t actually see great fat loss until I dropped PWO carbs as well.

6

[quote]Otep wrote:
I have not used Destroying Fat.

I have used the WSP to great effect. I dropped about 20lbs in 8 weeks.

My diet had to be fucking anal to do that. And pretty low (roughly 2500kcal on the AD).

I lost a good bit of strength though. At the end, I was having trouble doing a 315 back squat. Typically, my max is ~ 365.

It was effective, but it had some costs.

Don’t use Surge. Fish oil is good for fat loss, but I didn’t actually see great fat loss until I dropped PWO carbs as well. [/quote]

What body fat % didn’t you start from and where did you end after the 20lb loss? I’m looking to lose 17lbs of fat so WSP sounds good to me.

7

I couldn’t give you an honest answer SelfInflicted. I didn’t use calipers. I went from 238-218 in 8 weeks. that was pretty exciting for me. But I will point out my diet was completely dialed-in. My carb-ups were pasta and fruit. So it was a hard 8 weeks. Good luck.

8

If your going low carb (under 30g a day), use Glutamine for recovery. 20g PWO and 20 pre-bed on workout days only. Then you can keep carbs low and recover without a PWO carb drink.

But CT says that Surge is OK PWO for someone below 15% bf.

LR

9

There is so much conflicting ‘advice’ thrown around.

The Double Dose Surge Project had people stating that two servings of Surge did not promote fat gain in the PWO window.

Berardi said PWO carbs is fine and I don’t think he delineated the appropriateness of intake by body fat % range.

CT says not to touch carbs much and aim for glutamine instead.

I am not doubting any particular author, but I hope others can see that it should be a case of experimentation and not blindly following advice.

10

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
There is so much conflicting ‘advice’ thrown around.

The Double Dose Surge Project had people stating that two servings of Surge did not promote fat gain in the PWO window.

Berardi said PWO carbs is fine and I don’t think he delineated the appropriateness of intake by body fat % range.

CT says not to touch carbs much and aim for glutamine instead.

I am not doubting any particular author, but I hope others can see that it should be a case of experimentation and not blindly following advice.
[/quote]
My take on this.

I don’t think it is blindly following advice if you know what you’re looking for.

CT was at 20% BF and went down to 5%.

Bernardi was a skinny ecto and went up in weight and muscle mass.

I think you need to look at your own Somatotype when deciding who’s advice to follow. Bernardi has great nutritional and training advice, but I wouldn’t want to follow it for my body type.

Where as CT and Shugs have been in the same shoes as me and the OP and have dropped down to sub 10% with great success following a similar approach.

In the case of the OP, he’s been at a high bodyweight for his height, and even though he’s dropped the weight and could keep going, you have to realise that he’ll never be able to follow the same diet programs as someone who’s never been fat.

Chris Shugart wrote a very good article concerning FFBs. Whe I find it, i’ll link it for you.

So while there are trainers that give conflicting advice, you need to realise that a lot have them have no first hand/personal experience of being in that situation.

That’s why CT’s advice has worked so well for me, in regards to losing fat and gaining muscle. But to the OP, there are so many articles for you read and implement on T-Nation.

LR

11

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_ffb_handbook&cr=

LR

12

I’ve read many of the articles. At the very least every article written in the last 2 years. This is my first time actually applying one of the routine articles and giving it 100%. I’m currently working on my diet plan so I’ll post that up a little bit later.

13

Also I have another question. I tried to look at the T-dawg diet that Waterbury recommends, but the link doesn’t work. I found some other threads that said you can look at the cached version by using google, but I can’t get that to work either. Do I have to follow that diet exactly or can I follow a low carb, high protein diet instead?

Also if someone could provide a link that would be great!

14

Breakfast

4 eggs - 24.5g fat 29.1g protein 358 calorie
2 tbsp of anpb 15g fat 9g protein 250 calories or so
1 cup coffee black

Snack
Handful of almonds - 210 calories 18g fat 7g carb 8g protein
Shake - Metabolic Drive low carb. 20g protein 1.5g fat 4g carb 100 calories

Lunch
2 turkey patties w/mustard 32.6g protein 15.6g fat 320 calories

Pre workout Surge will be using 2 scoops overall so 42g carbs 170 calories

Post workout
1/2 serving of Surge - 4.5g fat 49g carb 33g protein cut in half so around 2g fat 25g carb and 16g protein and 160 calories

Dinner - unknown, but usually involves chicken, beef and a vegatable. Sometimes rice, but I can avoid it if need be. Others would include wheat spaghetti.

before bed shake - 20g protein 1.5g fat 4g carb 100 calories

Overall this comes out to (I think)

Protein 134.7
Carbs 82
Fat 78.1
Calories 1668 - Obviously not enough. I already have to force myself to get most of the food down, but I know I need to increase my food intake.

This is not including my dinner meal. I’ll also be using Flameout throught this instead of the generic fish oil I normally use. Obviously my diet needs a lot of help. I think for my weight I need around 240g of protein and I’m over 100g short. Help!

15

[quote]SelfInflicted wrote:
Also I have another question. I tried to look at the T-dawg diet that Waterbury recommends, but the link doesn’t work. I found some other threads that said you can look at the cached version by using google, but I can’t get that to work either. Do I have to follow that diet exactly or can I follow a low carb, high protein diet instead?

Also if someone could provide a link that would be great![/quote]

I didn’t believe you at first, but you’re right.
I tried finding the cached page, but it wasn’t easy so I gave up.

T-dawg diet in a nutshell:

  1. Consume less than 100carbs/day, mostly PWO
  2. Consume your BW x 18 for two weeks to get acclimated to the food, then drop your kcal by 500 to start dropping fat.
  3. Consume your BW x1.5 in pro
  4. The rest should be fat. Preferably a more-or-less even mix of sat, monounsat, and polyunsat.

The T-dawg diet (2.0) pretty much IS a generic low-carb, high-protein diet. But anything along these principles should work, so long as you’re making sure you’re progressing.

16

Yea, I try to search for things before asking. It’s prevents a lot of unproductive flaming.

17

Wow according to the #s of the T-diet you posted, I will need to eat 3510 calories and 292g of protein. I’m not even close to that with my current diet. This is going to be brutal!

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[quote]SelfInflicted wrote:
Wow according to the #s of the T-diet you posted, I will need to eat 3510 calories and 292g of protein. I’m not even close to that with my current diet. This is going to be brutal![/quote]

I hate you.

I eat 3500kcal and 300g of protein and I’m still hungry.

19

I hate me as well. Have no idea how I’m going to shovel all that food down my throat. I should probably start increasing my intake now.

20

[quote]SelfInflicted wrote:
I hate me as well. Have no idea how I’m going to shovel all that food down my throat. I should probably start increasing my intake now. [/quote]

Drizzle things in extra virgin olive oil.
Straight up cream.

But yeah, the bulk is meat. And eggs. and bacon.

MMhhh… bacon…