So as I stated in an earlier thread I this next cycle of mine will be 1g of test E per week. So I got 30 ml's which means I have enough for about 7 1/2 weeks. Brook had suggested if I am going to use a gram to limit my cycle to 6 weeks. So my question is should I frontload the first week? Do a total of 1500 mg's or so the first week so that my cycle pretty much ends at 6 weeks even?
I’ve seen conflicting evidence on this, and after doing some reading it’s just kind of muddied the subject further. Some people are all for it, saying that w/o a frontload the first week of a cycle is essentially useless and some say that even if you do frontload it doesn’t matter, you just spike your levels really high for the next week. Any thoughts?
*Option 1 (frontload)
Wk 1: 750 mg test E tues/thurs
wk 2-6: 500 mg test E tues/thurs
wk 1-6: adex .25 mg EOD or as needed
PCT: nolva 40/40/20/20 along with a double dose of tribulus everyday
*option 2
wk 1-7(and a half lol): 500 mg test E tues/thurs
wk 1-7: adex .25 mg EOD
PCT: nolva 40/40/20/20 and double dose tribulus ED
1 front load on the first day would seem to be more benefical… Somewhere in the range of 1.2grams if my mental math is still good… This is an alternate to option 1, I am not saying it is better than option two. I read a post from Prisoner a while back likening Trib to HcG, not sure if that comparison is valid, but if it is I would not use it during pct.
[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
1 front load on the first day would seem to be more benefical… Somewhere in the range of 1.2grams if my mental math is still good… This is an alternate to option 1, I am not saying it is better than option two. I read a post from Prisoner a while back likening Trib to HcG, not sure if that comparison is valid, but if it is I would not use it during pct. [/quote]
Hmm ok thanks. Huh, I was just using the trib to help my libido bounce back, but if it’s just going to suppress me further I’ll take it out. I hope that’s not the case since I’m finishing up my PCT on my last cycle and I’ve been using trib the whole time O.o
had time looked it up for you
"A more recent study found that four weeks of tribulus supplements (at 10 to 20 milligrams per kg of body weight daily) had no effect on male sex hormones testosterone, androstenedione, or luteinizing hormone compared to people who did not take tribulus. "
[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
had time looked it up for you
"A more recent study found that four weeks of tribulus supplements (at 10 to 20 milligrams per kg of body weight daily) had no effect on male sex hormones testosterone, androstenedione, or luteinizing hormone compared to people who did not take tribulus. "
[/quote]
Well I was doing some research too, looked at about 5 different websites, some forums and some other stuff. People were highly suggesting the use of tribulus for PCT, around 4g’s or so. They said it is a decent alternative for clomid, it isn’t necessary but certainly will help restart test production, especially when used with a SERM.
I find this to be very wrong. First off, I found several studies that indicated it showed no effect on endogenous testosterone production. Secondly how would they be able to determine whether the SERM or trib was helping with the suppressed HPTA? I also highly doubt that those who did use just Trib as a PCT were smart enough to get actual blood tests taken.
On another note, why did you make the jump from 500mg/week to 1g/week?
It would seem to me the logical progression from 500mg/week would be 750mg/week. Or perhaps adding in a class II compound as another alternative.
[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
I find this to be very wrong. First off, I found several studies that indicated it showed no effect on endogenous testosterone production. Secondly how would they be able to determine whether the SERM or trib was helping with the suppressed HPTA? I also highly doubt that those who did use just Trib as a PCT were smart enough to get actual blood tests taken.
On another note, why did you make the jump from 500mg/week to 1g/week?
It would seem to me the logical progression from 500mg/week would be 750mg/week. Or perhaps adding in a class II compound as another alternative.[/quote]
Is increasing the amount of testosterone the same as stimulating it’s production when it is sitting at zero? I don’t know.
Well they were saying that it basically performs the same action as clomid, albeit less effectively. A few of the guys on the were mentioning that they are completely swapping clomid for trib post cycle. I understand this is just “bro knowledge” but it may have some truth to it.
Onto the dosage part. When I ran 500 mg’s of sust a week, I noticed some pretty decent gains. I gained probably 8-10 lbs, and got some huge strength increases, but I had absolutely no side effects. I didn’t even use armidex for the entire 8 weeks (even though I had it on hand). I had no bloating, no gyno issues or anything.
So I kind of figured well, if I am seeing no side effects whatsoever, am I really using enough to see the benefits? This may be a backwards way of thinking, but that was just my theory.
Also Bill Roberts mentioned in his interview that top NPC guys are using 2 grams a week. That, coupled with several respected vets views on high dose shorter cycles working extremely well, I decided to try it.
I originally intended to use a test/deca cycle. But with prices around these parts it would be around $500 for me to get enough to run a 10 week test/8 week deca. Whereas to just get 7 weeks worth of test it was about $300. That was pretty much the deciding factor.
IMHO, if it is a money factor, you should save to do the cycle you want, not the one that is cheaper. Having said that I am a big fan of test. I would question returns vs sides at 1g or more though.
As far as the trib goes I have to agree with egnatiosj. I have found this stuff to be fairly worthless. Why not use a proven method instead of messing around with OTC crap. Trib as PCT sounds like something mentioned on bb.com. Whether it can kickstart the HPTA after 7 weeks at 1g per seems pretty sketchy to me. I certainly would not leave my boys to something like trib. Just my 2cc
[quote]D3HT09 wrote:
IMHO, if it is a money factor, you should save to do the cycle you want, not the one that is cheaper. Having said that I am a big fan of test. I would question returns vs sides at 1g or more though.
As far as the trib goes I have to agree with egnatiosj. I have found this stuff to be fairly worthless. Why not use a proven method instead of messing around with OTC crap. Trib as PCT sounds like something mentioned on bb.com. Whether it can kickstart the HPTA after 7 weeks at 1g per seems pretty sketchy to me. I certainly would not leave my boys to something like trib. Just my 2cc
Peace,[/quote]
The thing is this will only be my second cycle. Although it is a money factor, I want to be fully familiar with a drug and how I will react to it before I move on to adding other things. For instance, I now know that 500 mg’s a week of test is not sufficient for optimal growth in my case. I want to find the sweet spot dose, using 1g will let me determine that. If I make massive gains off this and have to deal with the normal sides that people speak of at just 500 mg’s I think I’ve learned something very valuable. I may just need 1g to see the same effects. I mean i got a little “bacne” but had zero water retention. That sounds to me like I didn’t have much free test floating around to aromatize, but that’s just my take on it.
So for future reference, if I want to throw in another androgen like deca, next time around I will know what my test dose should like and not just guess.
Again, with the trib, I am already using the standard nolva PCT so even without it my production will be restarted. It’s just a precautionary measure that I am using, I haven’t seen anything that says it will hurt me. It was like $15 for a bottle of 100 grams.
I’m headed out the door now but I quickly found four solid-looking studies demonstrating the ineffectiveness of trib on test levels & / or body composition. (I can post them when I get back if you wish.)
(edit)
Glad to see that you are using nolva regardless.
waylanderxx, point well taken with learning about 1 compound. I was under the impression that money was the deciding factor. If you are just interested in how far you can go with Test alone, I will be following with great interest. I am in a similar boat as I LOVE test, but have only cycled low doses as of yet. I am curious to see how things pan out for you on 1g/ wk dose (particularly on sides vs gains, as that is of great interest to me).
As far as the trib goes, i still hold my ground that it is a fairly worthless product. Having said this, 15 dollars is not too much to waste, and I can’t imagine it will do any harm to your HPTA. Like whotookmyname said, I am glad to see you have Nolva at least. I assume this is real nolva and not Gaspari NolvaXT (or whatever it is called).
[quote]D3HT09 wrote:
waylanderxx, point well taken with learning about 1 compound. I was under the impression that money was the deciding factor. If you are just interested in how far you can go with Test alone, I will be following with great interest. I am in a similar boat as I LOVE test, but have only cycled low doses as of yet. I am curious to see how things pan out for you on 1g/ wk dose (particularly on sides vs gains, as that is of great interest to me).
As far as the trib goes, i still hold my ground that it is a fairly worthless product. Having said this, 15 dollars is not too much to waste, and I can’t imagine it will do any harm to your HPTA. Like whotookmyname said, I am glad to see you have Nolva at least. I assume this is real nolva and not Gaspari NolvaXT (or whatever it is called).
Peace,[/quote]
Haha NolvaXT makes me giggle. Yah I have actual nolvadex. 20 mg tabs from a pharmaceutical company. And unless someone is desperate enough to make counterfeit nolva with the dosage and company name imprinted on each tab, I think I’ll be ok haha.
As far as the test goes I can keep a sort of log in this forum if that’s something you and others are interested in. I think it might be beneficial b/c there isn’t a whole lot of anecdotal evidence in these forums of doses 1g or higher, almost everything seems to be at 500 mg’s.
Anyways, after doing some more research, I’ve decided I definitely need to frontload if I am going to use a a shorter cycle, and a long ester. Thanks for all the input fellas!
While there is a difference also in time to reaching peak release rate, the primary reason by far that enanthate is considered slow to get started is from failure to frontload. When frontloaded it is reasonably prompt. Not much need for propionate to get things going although if an ultimate fine-tuner a little could be used.
In contrast it’s quite useful to transition quickly from high anabolically-effective levels to levels allowing recovery, which propionate does much better.
I always set it up as the short acting at the end rather than the beginning.
Thus, for 1000 mg/week usage and let’s say divided into two injections per week:
Day 1: 1400 mg TE. Or if an ultimate fine tuner you could make it 1200 mg TE and 200 mg TP.
Most of cycle: 500 mg TE 2x/week
About 2 weeks from end: Switch, on a day that would get a TE injection, to 150 (or 140) mg/day TP.
This is not an absolutely constant-level transition – levels will go to a little bit more shortly after the transition – but I have never bothered with the fine tuning needed to account for that and it’s not needed. It’s not as if just a little bit more T that week is going to kill you.
My point is more that on 500mg/week you noticed great strength gains- a sign of the testosterone working, and also you noticed an drastic increase in weight over a mere 8/weeks. Now say the sust took a week to kick in thats a 12pound increase over a span of seven weeks- IMO pretty good gains.
Now given that you were probably over 250 before even starting your cycle you should have been in the range of almost 5000cal/day. From a previous post, I noticed that you lived in a dorm which makes me doubt that you were able to get that much in each and every day. (Has nothing to do with you, just the fact that I know how dorm life is)
Also considering that you a paying so much for test I would think that you would want to use the minimum amount that you had to. Also, you are only 19 so if you take into consideration that you will probably be using AAS for a while, jumping up quickly is a bad idea, you will be on multiple grams of gear a week before you know it… Just something to consider, Im not trynig to deter you or knock your cycle in any way. Just hoping to give you something to think about.
[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
My point is more that on 500mg/week you noticed great strength gains- a sign of the testosterone working, and also you noticed an drastic increase in weight over a mere 8/weeks. Now say the sust took a week to kick in thats a 12pound increase over a span of seven weeks- IMO pretty good gains.
Now given that you were probably over 250 before even starting your cycle you should have been in the range of almost 5000cal/day. From a previous post, I noticed that you lived in a dorm which makes me doubt that you were able to get that much in each and every day. (Has nothing to do with you, just the fact that I know how dorm life is)
Also considering that you a paying so much for test I would think that you would want to use the minimum amount that you had to. Also, you are only 19 so if you take into consideration that you will probably be using AAS for a while, jumping up quickly is a bad idea, you will be on multiple grams of gear a week before you know it… Just something to consider, Im not trynig to deter you or knock your cycle in any way. Just hoping to give you something to think about.[/quote]
Well the thing about my dorm is the cafeteria is downstairs and I have the “unlimited” plan. So I am usually in there 5-6 times a day and I always have 1700 calories in shakes per day. That doesn’t even include my meals after the cafeteria closes at 7:30. Trust me, I was eating a lot.
Look if I am running test by itself I’m probably going to do a lot. If I add in other compounds I wont use as much.
Are you saying its ok for me to use 500 mg’s wk of test and 400 of deca but 1g of test is ridiculous? That’s still about 1g total for both cycle options but for some reason the 1g of test alone is looked down on for being too much, doesn’t make much sense.
btw thanks bushy and Bill for chiming in. Unfortunately I had read about that exact thing 1 day after I put my order in lol, so I’ll have to try that strategy next time I choose to do one of these short-heavy cycles.
Btw would one of you fellas mind helping me figure out the dose my frontload needs to be? I tried using the roid calculator, but I can’t figure it out. I don’t even see a slot for test E lol. Thanks in advance,
Are you saying its ok for me to use 500 mg’s wk of test and 400 of deca but 1g of test is ridiculous? That’s still about 1g total for both cycle options but for some reason the 1g of test alone is looked down on for being too much, doesn’t make much sense.
[/quote]
Not speaking for EG but some would say that 500 test and 400 deca is superior to 1000 test if all other things are equal. Of course it is very hard to prove this because they would have to be run at different points in time, meaning all other things can never be equal.
Many times people favor a test/deca stack over high dose test because of the side effect/gain ratio (you know that already). But if you don’t get sides from 1g of test and make acceptable gains then who are we to say what to do lol. Who the hell knows, it’s all personal preference at some point.
Not speaking for EG but some would say that 500 test and 400 deca is superior to 1000 test if all other things are equal. Of course it is very hard to prove this because they would have to be run at different points in time, meaning all other things can never be equal.
Many times people favor a test/deca stack over high dose test because of the side effect/gain ratio (you know that already). But if you don’t get sides from 1g of test and make acceptable gains then who are we to say what to do lol. Who the hell knows, it’s all personal preference at some point. [/quote]
Yah that’s what I’m saying. I respect you guys a lot and value all the advice you guys give, but I’ll never know unless I try it. This will probably be my last test alone cycle for quite a while so I just want to see how it goes, ya dig?
