Workout Advice/Critique Needed

Full specialization routine (chest, back, off, legs, shoulders, arms, off), looking for a little advice on areas to improve. Currently 5’8, 175, 11%bf; looking to gain mass. Thanks very much in advance

Monday
BB Bench 245x4,3,2,1,2
Incline BB Bench 180x8,8,6,6
Hs wide chest 200x12,10,7
Hs incline 140x9,9,7
1 set of fly mach to fail

Tuesday
Weighted Pull ups (45 lbs): 11,9,8,5 and burnout
DB Rows (85 lbs): 10,10,10,10
Chin ups: 8,7,7
Hs High Row (70): 10,10,10

Wednesday
OFF

Thursday
Squats (275): 15,15,12,10
SLDL (245): 12, 12, 12, 12
Standing Calf Press: 20,20, 20

Friday
Seated BB Shoulder Press (115): 10,8,7,6,4
Medial Flys (20): 10,10,10
Reverse Flys (20): 10,10,10
Front Raise (20): 10,10,10
Shoulder Fly machine (100): 10,10
Rear shoulder machine: 10,10

Saturday
Barbell Curls (100): 7,6,5
Close Grip Bench Press (185): 7,7,7
Incline Dumbbell Curls (40s): 10,9,8ish
Lying Triceps Extensions (50): 12,12,10
Machine Preacher Curls (70): 19,14,9(and burnout)
Reverse Grip Triceps Pushdowns (80): 20,15,9 and burnout

Sunday
OFF

Ummmm. Im not exactly sure what a “full specialization is”? If you want to gain mass, then eat more and lift more weight.

The above program is a typical standard split and will work just fine if you eat enough and lift right.

This is the third (or so) thread you made about the same topic… If you get an error message when posting a thread, at least check if it got through anyway before you post yet another one.

Also, read the “best of T-Nation” sticky.

Unless you’re Bauer’s little brother, the routine you posted is the last thing you want to do.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Unless you’re Bauer’s little brother, the routine you posted is the last thing you want to do.
[/quote]

Why?

[quote]w00tage wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Unless you’re Bauer’s little brother, the routine you posted is the last thing you want to do.
[/quote]

Why?[/quote]

Because for most people, doing multiple sets to failure will burn you out and make you progress at a snail’s pace.

Look jzl, unless you’re a huge MF’er, there’s no need to specialize. Heck, I only do 3 all out sets, maybe 4, per muscle group. I’ve added strength much faster than when I used to do multiple sets to failure with the same weight.

When working out a good volume to use, a good guideline I’ve found to be usefull is from CW:

24 - 36 total reps per movement, twice a week

Obviously, this is per group/movement (e.g. chest/pushing), NOT per exercise.

So, say for chest this would be like doing 2 x 6 reps for upper and mid chest 2x/week (24 x 2). The higher the rep range, the lower the percentage of the 1RM. So, if you were working in the 70% 1RM range (maybe about 8-10 reps), you could manage more total volume (e.g. 36 total reps x 2/week). But if you were working in the, say 85% 1 RM range (like about 5 or 6 reps per set), you wouldn’t be able to handle as much volume (better to use the lower total like 24).

Basically, if you stick to about 2 sets per exercise, you can’t go far wrong…or about 8-12 total sets per workout (the more big exercises in a workout, the less the total sets should be). I counted 12-20 total sets on most of your workouts, which will be too much in the long run. You may manage that while you are weak, or at the start, but it won’t take long to burn out when you progress (especially when you get good intensity) if you haven’t already reached that stage.

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
When working out a good volume to use, a good guideline I’ve found to be usefull is from CW:

24 - 36 total reps per movement, twice a week

Obviously, this is per group/movement (e.g. chest/pushing), NOT per exercise.

So, say for chest this would be like doing 2 x 6 reps for upper and mid chest 2x/week (24 x 2). The higher the rep range, the lower the percentage of the 1RM. So, if you were working in the 70% 1RM range (maybe about 8-10 reps), you could manage more total volume (e.g. 36 total reps x 2/week). But if you were working in the, say 85% 1 RM range (like about 5 or 6 reps per set), you wouldn’t be able to handle as much volume (better to use the lower total like 24).

Basically, if you stick to about 2 sets per exercise, you can’t go far wrong…or about 8-12 total sets per workout (the more big exercises in a workout, the less the total sets should be). I counted 12-20 total sets on most of your workouts, which will be too much in the long run. You may manage that while you are weak, or at the start, but it won’t take long to burn out when you progress (especially when you get good intensity) if you haven’t already reached that stage.[/quote]

I tried that method and I still think its not optimal (though the idea behind it seems sound).

You may feel compelled to reach that 24 rep goal in a workout when you should have done less (just not feeling it on that particular day) or you may stop at 36 reps when you may have been able (and should have done more).

However, the worst part is, he advocated gettting all your reps with the same weight, which is not the best way to do things. You’ll stall quickly.

Trust me…I’m a Dr. :wink:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
When working out a good volume to use, a good guideline I’ve found to be usefull is from CW:

24 - 36 total reps per movement, twice a week

Obviously, this is per group/movement (e.g. chest/pushing), NOT per exercise.

So, say for chest this would be like doing 2 x 6 reps for upper and mid chest 2x/week (24 x 2). The higher the rep range, the lower the percentage of the 1RM. So, if you were working in the 70% 1RM range (maybe about 8-10 reps), you could manage more total volume (e.g. 36 total reps x 2/week). But if you were working in the, say 85% 1 RM range (like about 5 or 6 reps per set), you wouldn’t be able to handle as much volume (better to use the lower total like 24).

Basically, if you stick to about 2 sets per exercise, you can’t go far wrong…or about 8-12 total sets per workout (the more big exercises in a workout, the less the total sets should be). I counted 12-20 total sets on most of your workouts, which will be too much in the long run. You may manage that while you are weak, or at the start, but it won’t take long to burn out when you progress (especially when you get good intensity) if you haven’t already reached that stage.[/quote]

I tried that method and I still think its not optimal (though the idea behind it seems sound).

You may feel compelled to reach that 24 rep goal in a workout when you should have done less (just not feeling it on that particular day) or you may stop at 36 reps when you may have been able (and should have done more).

However, the worst part is, he advocated gettting all your reps with the same weight, which is not the best way to do things. You’ll stall quickly.

Trust me…I’m a Dr. ;)[/quote]

Hey I know a Dr Forbes…she told me to take my top off and stuff, don’t remember why though? :wink:

I agree about the reps at same weight thing (obviously, the first set is less than failure) - I could never get my head around why this method would be promoted? As regards the volume thing, I guess that’s right and more efficient (what you said), however, it’s a good rough guide (starting point), for those not quite in tune with their training yet. Always better to do too little than too much…at least with low volume, you may not be at the optimal volume for hypertrophy, but you’ll get much stronger (which will build a solid foundation and put you light years ahead of 90% “bodybuilders” out there).

[quote]w00tage wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Unless you’re Bauer’s little brother, the routine you posted is the last thing you want to do.
[/quote]

Why?[/quote]

Seated BB Shoulder Press (115): 10,8,7,6,4
Medial Flys (20): 10,10,10
Reverse Flys (20): 10,10,10
Front Raise (20): 10,10,10
Shoulder Fly machine (100): 10,10
Rear shoulder machine: 10,10

Look at that closely and tell me where the logic is in
a) exercise amount
b) The way he goes about his sets

etc.

What is that supposed to accomplish, other than keep him weak forever?

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]w00tage wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Unless you’re Bauer’s little brother, the routine you posted is the last thing you want to do.
[/quote]

Why?[/quote]

Seated BB Shoulder Press (115): 10,8,7,6,4
Medial Flys (20): 10,10,10
Reverse Flys (20): 10,10,10
Front Raise (20): 10,10,10
Shoulder Fly machine (100): 10,10
Rear shoulder machine: 10,10

Look at that closely and tell me where the logic is in
a) exercise amount
b) The way he goes about his sets

etc.

What is that supposed to accomplish, other than keep him weak forever?
[/quote]

Well yeah, the shoulder day seems particularly stupid.

a) It depends what you mean by exercise amount. Certainly I would remove the last 2 exercises (because they seem to be redundant), but my last shoulder day was something like:

Seated Smith Press to Front
Seated DB Press
Shoulder Press (Machine) with slow negatives (I’m experimenting with doing slow negatives atm)
Shrugs
Bent Over Raises

which isn’t much less and it’s not like he’s lifting a lot. If I’m eating enough I can probably* progress just fine on this

b) I just assumed those first reps listed were warmup sets - although it seems stupid to predict the exact amount of warmup reps you need on a particular day in advance, people do things like that all the time here - and that we were past the whole ramping thing, so those first sets were warmups, with the last being an all out set. It also seems odd how he’s been so specific with the number of reps, lol. I didn’t actually see the weight listed in brackets after the exercise, so it’s likely I just misread/understood.

*I’m not able to get enough calories lately which is leaving me unable to recover as quickly as I usually would, so I switched to going to the gym 4 days a week now (I’ve almost always done 5-6 days) to see if this helps, and if it doesn’t, my next step is to reduce exercise amount. I’m not sure if this may also be because I’m getting a bit heavier now and can’t handle as much volume as perhaps I could as a beginner? I don’t believe that to be the case - it might be though, this is all stuff I’m figuring out and learning - I am fairly confident it is a matter of eating.

Either way, a 115 seated BB shoulder press is not very… good (no offense OP, unless those lifts are in kilos in which case it makes me wonder why you need to ask if a routine is OK). So he shouldn’t have problems progressing with that volume (I didn’t). Maybe I would have progressed faster if I used less volume, that’s something I’ll never know, but I certainly don’t feel like I do too much.

[quote]MODOK wrote:
You are 175 lbs… do you really think you need

HS Wide Press
HS Incline
Flyes to falure
HS high row
Medial Flyes
rear flyes
front raises
Shoulder fly machine
rear shoulder machine
Lying tricep
machine preachers
reverse grip pushdowns?

Honestly- you’ve got a TON of absolutely useless shit in your routine. You are a jack of all exercises and a master of none. Do you ever think, while you are on the 2nd set of rear shoulder flyes or front raises “what the fuck am I doing? I just did this SAME exercise with dumbells 20 minutes ago!”

Drop the above bullshit exercises. Take the other exercises and train them flat out. You’ll be amazed how fast the numbers will climb. [/quote]

Oh yeah, and that ^^^ AKA - Concentrate on getting stronger more than just the movements for your muscles. If you do that, hypertrophy will “follow”.

To add: if you are going to only do 8-10 sets per workout (like I suggested)…you better choose exercises which give you the most “bang for your buck” (that is, heavy compound). Also, do a split which allows you to do muscle groups every 4 or 5 days (that’s almost twice a week per muscle group).

If this just feels too easy (like you’ve hardly done anything), you really need to work your strength. If you don’t feel drained at the end of your workout initially, great, you’ll probably make good progress in poundage on your next.

Until you’ve put some decent mass on, leave out most of the specialisation exercises. I’m quite fond of the upper/lower splits for newer lifters because it’s un-complicated and easy to focus on. Here’s an example modification for you (choose one exercise for each stated body part, and do 2 sets for it, keep the rep range medium, that is, about 6-10):

Workout A
-Upper chest
-Middle chest
-Pullup
-Triceps (can use high reps like 10+)
-Biceps "

Workout B
-Squat
-SL Deadlifts
-Shoulders (compound)
-Reverse flys (optional)

Note: the shoulders are on leg days simply because of all the pushing on upper day. Also, I only put one back exercise in on the upper day because of SL deadlifts on the lower day.

Simply rotate through workouts A and B doing about 3 per week

Example layout =
Mon A
Wed B
Fri A
Mon B

There are other splits that do your bodyparts this frequently too (e.g. 3 way, done 5-6 times per week). Any vets like C_C and MODOK like to critique or modify?

Hey guys, thank you for the replies. MODOK, I especially appreciate the criticism, and now feel somewhat foolish when I listened to someone significantly bigger than me tell me to do 20 sets per workout for a given bodypart, which I tried to emulate.

My main interest was to bring up my shoulders and my arms to make them more proportional with my back/chest, but even moreso my legs. The reason I can’t lift significant weight squatting is that I tore a hip flexor two years ago that severely limits the strain I can put on it. However, my legs remain much larger than the rest of my body.

The main issue is that although I weigh 175 lbs, I have been consistently lifting for 4 years without more than a week off ever. I feel my lifts are pretty decent (250x5 bench, in health 325x8 squat, pull ups x 10 w/ 45lb weight), and I don’t necessarily feel an upper/lower program would suit me best. PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong, as I appear to know much less than I thought.

The split I was aiming for was Chest, Back, off, Legs, Shoulders, Arms, off. I guess where I screwed up was the number of sets per workout, which I’d like to get some input on. I understand the value of compound lifts like benching and pull-ups, but think that isolation exercises to indeed have some value. Can anyone provide some insight here?

Thanks again
J

People are spending way too much time on what split to do and less and less time about what food to eat to gain mass…

There’s a number of good workout programs out there on this site, just pick one (seriously) and focus on eating the right foods and getting enough rest…

Was looking for a little more than that…I just feel that lifting something like 12 sets per workout doing a full split (i.e. just chest on monday) would not be enough to stimulate growth for me. am i wrong?

There needs to be more frequency per muscle group. I don’t mean to put so much emphasis on a training split, but only training all your muscle groups once a week is not going to get you as far as a more frequent split. You could get away with training legs/deadlifts once a week, but for the other muscle groups, more frequency is better. A good article from CT about frequency: Strength Training, Bodybuilding & Online Supplement Store - T NATION

If you don’t like the upper/lower split (which I can understand because it is quite limitted) Here’s a few good 3 way splits (which train muscle groups twice/week):

Day 1: Chest and back
Day 2: Lower body
Day 3: Off
Day 4: Arms and shoulders
Day 5: Off
Day 6: Repeat

Or

Day 1: Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 2: Legs, Abs
Day 3: Off
Day 4: Delts, Back
Day 5: Off
Day 6: Repeat

Do about two exercises per muscle group (sometimes up to 3 for certain ones).

Here’s a good quote from C_C about the splits above:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
"I train whenever I feel like it and have the time, can vary a lot from week to week, made some great progress that way and when the ramping is done right, you leave the gym feeling fresher than when you entered it.

First off, the frequency above is the “original” recommended frequency, but you can really go whenever you have time and feel like it.

That can look like:

Week 1 - feel great all around, found time to go 6 days a week
Day 1 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Delts, Back
Day 4 - off (no time today or want to recuperate a bit)
Day 5 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 6 - Legs
Day 7 - Delts, Back
Week 2 (little time this week, only 3 days)
Day 1 - off
Day 2 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 3 - off
Day 4 - Legs
Day 5 - off
Day 6 - Delts, Back
Day 7 - off
Week 3 (bit more time, 4 days this week)
Day 1 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - off
Day 4 - off
Day 5 - Delts, Back
Day 6 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 7 - off

You just get in sessions whenever you can.
Ok?

As for Squats and DL, you have several options…

  1. Alternate from cycle to cycle (i.e. Leg day 1 = squat day, Leg day 2 = DL day)
  2. Focus on one of them and leave the other be for a time…
    etc

And when it comes to overlap:

You only do 1 overhead pressing exercise for delts, and that one is ramped, so if you were to do chest and tris the day after, it shouldn’t interfere much.

If doing DL on leg day, then don’t pick heavy BO rows for back day, but instead seated cable, Hammerstrength or Kroc rows…

Etc.

It’s a lot less complicated than it sounds.

I took myself from about 180 to 275 with a split like this. 2-3 exercises per body part, working up to max sets of 3, 6 or 8. Sure, I tried some other stuff along the way, but I always came back to old faithful."
[/quote]

A good quote from CT about ramping:

[quote] Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Ramping:
It’s not about ‘knowing’ or ‘feeling’ when you need to stop. There are distinct signs to look for. For example with ramping, you keep increasing the weight and adding sets until you reach the maximum amount of weight you can lift for the required number of reps. When you can’t do more, then you stop. It is NOT complicated.

You stop the exercise when you can’t add more weight for the prescribed number of reps.

Basically start at roughly 60-70% of your 1RM on an exercise and add 10,20,30 or 40lbs (depending on the exercise you are using). Each set you can do two things:

A) add more weight
B) stop the exercise

Basically reach the top of the mountain for the number of reps selected and then stop. This way both volume (number of sets) and weight will be adapted automatically to what your body can do on that day.

Let’s assume a 400 lbs max bench press… a bench progression could look like this:

Bar x 15-20 reps (warm-up)
135lbs x 1 (feel set)
185lbs x 1 (feel set)
225lbs x 1 (feel set)
240lbs x 5 (work set)
270lbs x 5 (work set)
300lbs x 5 (work set)
320lbs x 5 (work set)
340lbs x 5 (work set)
350lbs x 5 (work set) … barely got that 5th rep = end of exercise

[/quote]

As long as you eat enough EVERY DAY, EVERY WEEK, EVERY MONTH you’ll grow. Here’s a good formula to get you started and to be realistic about food consumption (you’ll need to take notes to do the formula):

BMR = 66 + (13.7 x lean weight in kg) + (5 x height in cm) - (6.8 x age)

Activity level factor
1.0 Sedentary
1.2 Very light activity
1.4 Light activity
1.6 Moderate activity (most bodybuilders)
1.8 High activity
2.0 Extreme activity (bodybuilders with very fast metabolism)

Maintenance calorie intake = BMR x activity level factor

Maximum muscle gain while accepting a moderate fat gain = Maintenance x 1.3

So for someone like you, who is 170lbs (assuming your height, bodyfat, age and activity level are 5foot9, 12%, 20 years old and high activity) this would be around 4000cals per day. Obviously, if the scale isn’t moving upwards (and your recovery is in check), increase the calories.

Dairy products and beef are a bodybuilders best friend when it comes to bulking :slight_smile: If you struggle to gain weight, don’t be affraid to venture to the “dark side”…eat some so called “un-clean food”. Even if it means eating a cream cake after your beef pasta dish, do it lol.

[quote]jzl1388 wrote:
Was looking for a little more than that…I just feel that lifting something like 12 sets per workout doing a full split (i.e. just chest on monday) would not be enough to stimulate growth for me. am i wrong?[/quote]

Are you saying that you feel 12 sets per muscle group doesn’t feel like enough? If yes, then yes you are wrong…

If you are putting in enough intensity, working up to one or two max sets at around 85% 1RM, then you should be feeling fully worked. You don’t need to trash muscles to make them grow. As the saying goes:

“Train to strain, not to fail”

Add in the equation extra frequency (and food), and you have a good recipe for growth and strength :slight_smile: