Working Around Injuries

Training 5/3/1
1

Posters of T Nation and Mr. Wendler,

I am an idiot.

Almost 3 years ago, I found your Boring But Big challenge article. It worked like magic. I got a decent strength base, and got much bigger.

I loved training back then. It was simple and I got to do a ton of what I loved, big barbell lifts.

Somewhere along the lines, I lost sight of that. I started to modify the progression, do extra fatigued sets (which has caused me an injured acl, 2 strained backs, and a strained shoulder), make four 10 rep max attempts where the program calls for 4x10, etc…

My form went to hell. And I AMRAP’d everything, all the time, every set until actual failure.

Now at the advent of my 2nd back injury, I see the error of my ways.

Too much emphasis on assistance, not enough trust that the main lift was going to get it done.

I present you with my proposition to fix my stupidity.

I have moved on to more PL type goals now, but I have been getting injured (5 times in the last year where I had to take time off of a lift and train around), so I am going to modify my current programming to go back to get that initial love of BBB back.

My question is, if I were to switch out the 5x10 squat/deadlift/bench with 5x10 safety squat/stiff leg deadlift/close grip bench, would that break the program?

I am at the point in my training career where I would rather not use 90% training maxes (a great rule for beginners and the extremely lost/impatient), as I don’t max out but once in a blue moon. Instead, I pick a goal from a year from now and count backwards by 5 lb jumps until I get there. (Example using 6 mo: I wanna bench 300 in 6 months. 6 months x 5 lbs equals starting TM of 270.)

I am also turning into a lazy bastard and am just going to get the prescribed reps unless I am feeling like an absolute champ. I have adjusted for my being a pussy by doing a pyramid down after I am done with my top set for the day, so my 5/3/1 week looks like 5/3/1/3/5.

What percentage of TM would you guys recommend here? BBB is traditionally 50% up to 70%. It is important to note that eventually I will be doing a true 95% of my 1 rm with this system, and I want to be able to strike the delicate balance of being able to survive the 5x10 and pushing myself.

Program
Squat 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Safety squat 5x10 (TM?)
45 degree hyperextension 5x10
Calves/abs (For stability.)

Bench 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Close Grip Bench 5x10 (TM?)
Kroc Row 4x10-15
Chest Supported row 5x10

Deadlift 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Stiff leg deadlift 5x10 (TM?)
Face Pull 5x10 (Build yoke.)
Shrug 5x10 (Build yoke.)
Dumbbell rear lateral raise (Build yoke.)

DeFranco Shoulder Shocker x3
(I have a shoulder issue with overhead work that I’m rehabbing at the moment. It breaks my heart. =[)
Neutral Grip Chin 5x10
Curls? (Are these really necessary to have big arms after all that pulling?)
Triceps? (Again, necessary with all the pushing?)

I know that you guys may not like how I ditched the traditional TM’s/AMRAP/arm work/etc, but I am an idiot and this is how I prevent myself from being an idiot.

Thanks in advance for all the help. This last year has been a struggle with life and lifting. Lots of injuries, school, moving, etc…

2

Substitute exercises are fine but non-Training Max progression is simply not 5/3/1.

3

[quote]Mattyb83 wrote:
Substitute exercises are fine but non-Training Max progression is simply not 5/3/1. [/quote]

It works out in the end. You’re just not starting with 90%.

You just look forward, and then plan your progress as it meets your goals.

After 3 cycles of squat, your squat training max will go up 30 lbs.

I’m not modifying the jumps, just the starting point.

4

In the end, you made up your own mind. Do what you like.

But please, opinions are not facts. 90% will work for everyone and it has been proven.

I am wondering if you actually understand the philosophy?

You also mentioned that you get injured a lot because of too much emphasis on assistance work. Well, your whole question is based on assistance work. What exactly did you learn from getting injured?

according to you, 5/3/1 w/BBB worked like magic!!

In one sentence you answered your own question.

Good luck

5

[quote]JFG wrote:
In the end, you made up your own mind. Do what you like.

But please, opinions are not facts. 90% will work for everyone and it has been proven.

I am wondering if you actually understand the philosophy?

You also mentioned that you get injured a lot because of too much emphasis on assistance work. Well, your whole question is based on assistance work. What exactly did you learn from getting injured?

according to you, 5/3/1 w/BBB worked like magic!!

In one sentence you answered your own question.

Good luck[/quote]

I tend to agree with that response. I think you may consider looking into First Set Last from the Beyond book, as it’s a little more strength oriented for individuals looking for extra volume.

6

[quote]JFG wrote:
In the end, you made up your own mind. Do what you like.

But please, opinions are not facts. 90% will work for everyone and it has been proven.

I am wondering if you actually understand the philosophy?

You also mentioned that you get injured a lot because of too much emphasis on assistance work. Well, your whole question is based on assistance work. What exactly did you learn from getting injured?

according to you, 5/3/1 w/BBB worked like magic!!

In one sentence you answered your own question.

Good luck[/quote]

I can’t tell if you’re intentionally being a dick or not.

I ran Boring But Big for 12 months straight. I followed it with triumvirate for 12 months straight. I have also talked to Mr. Wendler on several occasions where he said that 90% is a starting place, not a blind rule.

Here is a direct quote from Jim’s website detailing what I am conveying.

?Once you?ve been using 531 for a while you should get to a point where your TM doesn?t have a direct correlation (percentage) with your actual max. The 90% rule was the recommended starting point, Beyond 531 may mention 85% or 80% or whatever but the bottom line is you manipulate your TM based on current training goals, current programming, current level of strength, etc. There is no hard rule for your TM. In my opinion the more progress you can achieve out of a low TM the better."

But, please continue to make snarky remarks about “the facts.” It is helpful.

Do I understand the philosophy?

I would hope that after gaining 70 lbs of bodyweight and just over 500 lbs on my total, I would have some basic understanding of how “the philosophy” of the big lifts works.

What did I learn from being injured?

I learned that programmed assistance, and ditching the constant AMRAP until fail, keeps me from getting injured. That is why I am asking a question about a template for programming the assistance, and still hitting appropriate volume on my main lifts without AMRAP sets all the time.

The question was, stated more simply, when changing from a 5x10 deadlift to 5x10 stiff legs, how should I adjust my BBB set percentage?

Are there any glaring flaws with the design of what I have done here?

Again, I usually just stick to the “Training Logs” section of this site, but that does not mean that I don’t know how basic 5/3/1 works.

I honestly cannot tell if your post was aimed at being condescending or not, so I am sorry if I took that the wrong way.

That being said, I didn’t create this thread to have people piss and moan because I used to like to go balls to the wall (which started getting me beat up), and that I don’t care to start at 90% because I have been running the system for almost 3 straight years.

7

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:

[quote]JFG wrote:
In the end, you made up your own mind. Do what you like.

But please, opinions are not facts. 90% will work for everyone and it has been proven.

I am wondering if you actually understand the philosophy?

You also mentioned that you get injured a lot because of too much emphasis on assistance work. Well, your whole question is based on assistance work. What exactly did you learn from getting injured?

according to you, 5/3/1 w/BBB worked like magic!!

In one sentence you answered your own question.

Good luck[/quote]

I tend to agree with that response. I think you may consider looking into First Set Last from the Beyond book, as it’s a little more strength oriented for individuals looking for extra volume. [/quote]

My plan was to ditch all AMRAP work.

It doesn’t gel with my mindset toward life.

I tend to over-do everything rather than do the minimum.

I am trying to find a way to program that keeps my numbers under control and in a specific range for that reason.

8

[quote]trivium wrote:

[quote]JFG wrote:
In the end, you made up your own mind. Do what you like.

But please, opinions are not facts. 90% will work for everyone and it has been proven.

I am wondering if you actually understand the philosophy?

You also mentioned that you get injured a lot because of too much emphasis on assistance work. Well, your whole question is based on assistance work. What exactly did you learn from getting injured?

according to you, 5/3/1 w/BBB worked like magic!!

In one sentence you answered your own question.

Good luck[/quote]

I can’t tell if you’re intentionally being a dick or not.

I ran Boring But Big for 12 months straight. I followed it with triumvirate for 12 months straight. I have also talked to Mr. Wendler on several occasions where he said that 90% is a starting place, not a blind rule.

Here is a direct quote from Jim’s website detailing what I am conveying.

?Once you?ve been using 531 for a while you should get to a point where your TM doesn?t have a direct correlation (percentage) with your actual max. The 90% rule was the recommended starting point, Beyond 531 may mention 85% or 80% or whatever but the bottom line is you manipulate your TM based on current training goals, current programming, current level of strength, etc. There is no hard rule for your TM. In my opinion the more progress you can achieve out of a low TM the better."

But, please continue to make snarky remarks about “the facts.” It is helpful.

Do I understand the philosophy?

I would hope that after gaining 70 lbs of bodyweight and just over 500 lbs on my total, I would have some basic understanding of how “the philosophy” of the big lifts works.

What did I learn from being injured?

I learned that programmed assistance, and ditching the constant AMRAP until fail, keeps me from getting injured. That is why I am asking a question about a template for programming the assistance, and still hitting appropriate volume on my main lifts without AMRAP sets all the time.

The question was, stated more simply, when changing from a 5x10 deadlift to 5x10 stiff legs, how should I adjust my BBB set percentage?

Are there any glaring flaws with the design of what I have done here?

Again, I usually just stick to the “Training Logs” section of this site, but that does not mean that I don’t know how basic 5/3/1 works.

I honestly cannot tell if your post was aimed at being condescending or not, so I am sorry if I took that the wrong way.

That being said, I didn’t create this thread to have people piss and moan because I used to like to go balls to the wall (which started getting me beat up), and that I don’t care to start at 90% because I have been running the system for almost 3 straight years.[/quote]

He is intentionally being a dick. It’s a bad habit of his. Just ignore him.

9

[quote]DanProsser wrote:

[quote]trivium wrote:

[quote]JFG wrote:
In the end, you made up your own mind. Do what you like.

But please, opinions are not facts. 90% will work for everyone and it has been proven.

I am wondering if you actually understand the philosophy?

You also mentioned that you get injured a lot because of too much emphasis on assistance work. Well, your whole question is based on assistance work. What exactly did you learn from getting injured?

according to you, 5/3/1 w/BBB worked like magic!!

In one sentence you answered your own question.

Good luck[/quote]

I can’t tell if you’re intentionally being a dick or not.

I ran Boring But Big for 12 months straight. I followed it with triumvirate for 12 months straight. I have also talked to Mr. Wendler on several occasions where he said that 90% is a starting place, not a blind rule.

Here is a direct quote from Jim’s website detailing what I am conveying.

?Once you?ve been using 531 for a while you should get to a point where your TM doesn?t have a direct correlation (percentage) with your actual max. The 90% rule was the recommended starting point, Beyond 531 may mention 85% or 80% or whatever but the bottom line is you manipulate your TM based on current training goals, current programming, current level of strength, etc. There is no hard rule for your TM. In my opinion the more progress you can achieve out of a low TM the better."

But, please continue to make snarky remarks about “the facts.” It is helpful.

Do I understand the philosophy?

I would hope that after gaining 70 lbs of bodyweight and just over 500 lbs on my total, I would have some basic understanding of how “the philosophy” of the big lifts works.

What did I learn from being injured?

I learned that programmed assistance, and ditching the constant AMRAP until fail, keeps me from getting injured. That is why I am asking a question about a template for programming the assistance, and still hitting appropriate volume on my main lifts without AMRAP sets all the time.

The question was, stated more simply, when changing from a 5x10 deadlift to 5x10 stiff legs, how should I adjust my BBB set percentage?

Are there any glaring flaws with the design of what I have done here?

Again, I usually just stick to the “Training Logs” section of this site, but that does not mean that I don’t know how basic 5/3/1 works.

I honestly cannot tell if your post was aimed at being condescending or not, so I am sorry if I took that the wrong way.

That being said, I didn’t create this thread to have people piss and moan because I used to like to go balls to the wall (which started getting me beat up), and that I don’t care to start at 90% because I have been running the system for almost 3 straight years.[/quote]

He is intentionally being a dick. It’s a bad habit of his. Just ignore him.
[/quote]

I don’t mean to be rude to anyone, as that doesn’t make for stimulating conversation that leads to learning.

I thought my question was somewhat original.

10

I personally would pick about 50-60%, and see how it feels after week one. Add or subtract from there, but ideally adding 5-10 lbs per week to your assistance work as well.

11

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
I personally would pick about 50-60%, and see how it feels after week one. Add or subtract from there, but ideally adding 5-10 lbs per week to your assistance work as well. [/quote]

I was thinking maybe in the 45 percent range for the first week, then bumping up 5 percent each week until I find a healthy challenge.

12

I was only trying to confirm what you actually wrote. If you took offence, sorry, not the intent. It did make you post a long answer and that prove passion. which is very good thing. Unfortunately, there was defensiveness. Hope I didn’t hit a nerve.

you mentioned 90% being only good for beginner and/or patient people. That just isn’t right. It works for everyone. Not saying using a different % for TM is wrong. That is all I was saying.

For the understanding of the philosophy.

The above is part of the philosophy. That you are calling yourself a lazy bastard for following the intent of the program had me questioning. Again, that is all.

I’m pretty sure the Jokers and FSL’s came out of that. Just a different way of getting your plus in conjunction with your goals.

As for the specific of your question, it has been answered. I personally start lighter to make sure no injuries occur. As long as you get an honest 5x10, you are golden. I’ve done front squats and started at 30% and moved up until desired effect.

Pet peeve: 4x10-15 is not Kroc row. It is dumbell rows.

As for the rest of your assistance work, I would use Jim’s recommendations. 5x10 after BBB seems excessive. 3x8-12? it is assistance work after all and it does seem the reason why you get hurt.

Just my $.02

Good luck with everything

13

After reading through you log and seeing lots of comments about you chasing “soreness” and not feeling like you trained unless your body was tired or crushed, backing off could be a really positive direction in your training. It seems obvious your all out approach was behind all the injuries you’ve accumulated recently. I hope this change works for you.

14

[quote]trivium wrote:
Posters of T Nation and Mr. Wendler,

I am an idiot.

Almost 3 years ago, I found your Boring But Big challenge article. It worked like magic. I got a decent strength base, and got much bigger.

I loved training back then. It was simple and I got to do a ton of what I loved, big barbell lifts.

Somewhere along the lines, I lost sight of that. I started to modify the progression, do extra fatigued sets (which has caused me an injured acl, 2 strained backs, and a strained shoulder), make four 10 rep max attempts where the program calls for 4x10, etc…

My form went to hell. And I AMRAP’d everything, all the time, every set until actual failure.

Now at the advent of my 2nd back injury, I see the error of my ways.

Too much emphasis on assistance, not enough trust that the main lift was going to get it done.

I present you with my proposition to fix my stupidity.

I have moved on to more PL type goals now, but I have been getting injured (5 times in the last year where I had to take time off of a lift and train around), so I am going to modify my current programming to go back to get that initial love of BBB back.

My question is, if I were to switch out the 5x10 squat/deadlift/bench with 5x10 safety squat/stiff leg deadlift/close grip bench, would that break the program?

I am at the point in my training career where I would rather not use 90% training maxes (a great rule for beginners and the extremely lost/impatient), as I don’t max out but once in a blue moon. Instead, I pick a goal from a year from now and count backwards by 5 lb jumps until I get there. (Example using 6 mo: I wanna bench 300 in 6 months. 6 months x 5 lbs equals starting TM of 270.)

I am also turning into a lazy bastard and am just going to get the prescribed reps unless I am feeling like an absolute champ. I have adjusted for my being a pussy by doing a pyramid down after I am done with my top set for the day, so my 5/3/1 week looks like 5/3/1/3/5.

What percentage of TM would you guys recommend here? BBB is traditionally 50% up to 70%. It is important to note that eventually I will be doing a true 95% of my 1 rm with this system, and I want to be able to strike the delicate balance of being able to survive the 5x10 and pushing myself.

Program
Squat 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Safety squat 5x10 (TM?)
45 degree hyperextension 5x10
Calves/abs (For stability.)

Bench 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Close Grip Bench 5x10 (TM?)
Kroc Row 4x10-15
Chest Supported row 5x10

Deadlift 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Stiff leg deadlift 5x10 (TM?)
Face Pull 5x10 (Build yoke.)
Shrug 5x10 (Build yoke.)
Dumbbell rear lateral raise (Build yoke.)

DeFranco Shoulder Shocker x3
(I have a shoulder issue with overhead work that I’m rehabbing at the moment. It breaks my heart. =[)
Neutral Grip Chin 5x10
Curls? (Are these really necessary to have big arms after all that pulling?)
Triceps? (Again, necessary with all the pushing?)

I know that you guys may not like how I ditched the traditional TM’s/AMRAP/arm work/etc, but I am an idiot and this is how I prevent myself from being an idiot.

Thanks in advance for all the help. This last year has been a struggle with life and lifting. Lots of injuries, school, moving, etc…[/quote]

If you want to switch out the supplemental movement that is fine - but choose correctly. However, your proposed plan and ignorance of the purpose of the TM is not something I would recommend. You seem to have your mind very made up and hope the best in your future. Good luck.

15

[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:

[quote]trivium wrote:
Posters of T Nation and Mr. Wendler,

I am an idiot.

Almost 3 years ago, I found your Boring But Big challenge article. It worked like magic. I got a decent strength base, and got much bigger.

I loved training back then. It was simple and I got to do a ton of what I loved, big barbell lifts.

Somewhere along the lines, I lost sight of that. I started to modify the progression, do extra fatigued sets (which has caused me an injured acl, 2 strained backs, and a strained shoulder), make four 10 rep max attempts where the program calls for 4x10, etc…

My form went to hell. And I AMRAP’d everything, all the time, every set until actual failure.

Now at the advent of my 2nd back injury, I see the error of my ways.

Too much emphasis on assistance, not enough trust that the main lift was going to get it done.

I present you with my proposition to fix my stupidity.

I have moved on to more PL type goals now, but I have been getting injured (5 times in the last year where I had to take time off of a lift and train around), so I am going to modify my current programming to go back to get that initial love of BBB back.

My question is, if I were to switch out the 5x10 squat/deadlift/bench with 5x10 safety squat/stiff leg deadlift/close grip bench, would that break the program?

I am at the point in my training career where I would rather not use 90% training maxes (a great rule for beginners and the extremely lost/impatient), as I don’t max out but once in a blue moon. Instead, I pick a goal from a year from now and count backwards by 5 lb jumps until I get there. (Example using 6 mo: I wanna bench 300 in 6 months. 6 months x 5 lbs equals starting TM of 270.)

I am also turning into a lazy bastard and am just going to get the prescribed reps unless I am feeling like an absolute champ. I have adjusted for my being a pussy by doing a pyramid down after I am done with my top set for the day, so my 5/3/1 week looks like 5/3/1/3/5.

What percentage of TM would you guys recommend here? BBB is traditionally 50% up to 70%. It is important to note that eventually I will be doing a true 95% of my 1 rm with this system, and I want to be able to strike the delicate balance of being able to survive the 5x10 and pushing myself.

Program
Squat 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Safety squat 5x10 (TM?)
45 degree hyperextension 5x10
Calves/abs (For stability.)

Bench 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Close Grip Bench 5x10 (TM?)
Kroc Row 4x10-15
Chest Supported row 5x10

Deadlift 5/3/1 (Pyramid down.)
Stiff leg deadlift 5x10 (TM?)
Face Pull 5x10 (Build yoke.)
Shrug 5x10 (Build yoke.)
Dumbbell rear lateral raise (Build yoke.)

DeFranco Shoulder Shocker x3
(I have a shoulder issue with overhead work that I’m rehabbing at the moment. It breaks my heart. =[)
Neutral Grip Chin 5x10
Curls? (Are these really necessary to have big arms after all that pulling?)
Triceps? (Again, necessary with all the pushing?)

I know that you guys may not like how I ditched the traditional TM’s/AMRAP/arm work/etc, but I am an idiot and this is how I prevent myself from being an idiot.

Thanks in advance for all the help. This last year has been a struggle with life and lifting. Lots of injuries, school, moving, etc…[/quote]

If you want to switch out the supplemental movement that is fine - but choose correctly. However, your proposed plan and ignorance of the purpose of the TM is not something I would recommend. You seem to have your mind very made up and hope the best in your future. Good luck.
[/quote]

To be honest man, I don’t want to start at 90%.

It is going to be more than my back can handle.

I was thinking somewhere like 75% as that is what the percentages of my lifts will start around when I take 100 lbs off of my personal bests in the lower lifts, and 50 lbs off of my personal best in the bench.

Thank you for taking time to respond.