[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Murder is illegal.
Legality does not imply morality.[/quote]
You said:
If we thought it worked like that, the “Will of God” keeping people from committing immoral acts that do harm against another (in this case, abortion), then we wouldn’t support laws against murder (as we recognize it today), either. We wouldn’t need to.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
An interesting read, if you haven’t seen it before.
[/quote]
I agree with all of that. Maybe if there was a stipulation for procedures, where the parents must be notified before anything happens, I would be okay with going to the doc without consent. I’m already okay for my daughter (when I have one) to be on birth control. I know she’s going to want to have sex, and I want her to be more knowledgeable than I was. I had no knowledge of sex outside of what I read in books and got in sex ed. My mother and I barely had “the talk” and that was only after I nagged her about it. [/quote]
You sound like you’re going to be a more responsible parent than the ones the law about the not needing parental consent is aimed at. For instance, my own mother did not have the talk with me; I learned pretty much everything due to that radio show “Love Line” (thank you Adam Corolla and Dr. Drew. I’d probably be pregnant and on welfare if it wasn’t for you).
Because of that show, I knew where to find the morning after pill, I knew how effective the different kinds of birth control were and that the depo shot had some serious drawbacks. I knew that I could get a check-up at planned parenthood without parental consent and I did. That check up was the first contact with a doctor that I’d had since I was 12!! When I was 17, going to my regular women’s check up (without parental consent), they discovered a lump of some sort on the right side of my abdomen, which they thought might be cancer. They sent me home with a sheet for my mother to sign so I could get a CAT scan. She told me to sign it myself when I turned 18 in 3 months. Instead, I ran away from home, and found another way of getting the procedure done later that week (the system worked around my mother).
You CANNOT assume that every parent is going to be as responsible as you and you have to make sure that kids needs will be met in light of parents who aren’t. Requiring a parent’s signature for any kind of basic health care CAN be a problem, a life threatening problem, in some cases.
Also, in some cases, it could be phhysically dangerous for a girl to get birth control if she had an overly religious and physically abusive parent who was being notified.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Also, in some cases, it could be phhysically dangerous for a girl to get birth control if she had an overly religious and physically abusive parent who was being notified.[/quote]
True. That’s why I said procedures, not medications. In some cases it probably is safer for the daughter to go to the doc without consent but I would hope that most parents when confronted with some kind of life-saving procedure would agree to it.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Murder is illegal.
Legality does not imply morality.[/quote]
You said:
If we thought it worked like that, the “Will of God” keeping people from committing immoral acts that do harm against another (in this case, abortion), then we wouldn’t support laws against murder (as we recognize it today), either. We wouldn’t need to.
[/quote]
The further back in time you go from birth the less people can relate to it in their own lives, like the moment after conception. Back to the case where law is just what is in the best interest of the people. In this case the freedom to choose is more in my interest than the life of something that does not have most of the traits that define a person.
I know Krugman gets no love on PWI, but this is a nice article: Opinion | Severe Conservative Syndrome - The New York Times
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
The further back in time you go from birth the less people can relate to it in their own lives, like the moment after conception.[/quote]
Well sure, look at how we talk about pregnancy now. We’ve sanitized it. What if we always spoke of it as the human life that it is?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
It’s sad that such a simple question led to three pages of evading the issue.
A belief in god might prevent someone from raping and/or murdering someone else, but that same belief might also condone or incite the rape and/or murder of someone else.
Essentially, religious beliefs do very little to prevent unwanted actions but are readily used to justify negativity.
Just look at how easily religious men here on PWI are willing to demote women to a second tier existence based on religious beliefs. They’d even vote for other men who pledged to abolish abortion and make it harder for women to acces birth control.
A person is able to justify any behaviour no matter if he’s an atheist or believer, but the absence of religious morality does not make it easier to behave badly just like the belief in religious morality does not prevent a believer from behaving badly.
If the desire is strong enough a person will act on it regardless.[/quote]
Here’s the biggest fact of all. A theist, if he were to fallaciously believe there is no God, wouldn’t have to change one iota of his behavior to line up with that ideology. If, however, believing in God would seemingly force you to change your behavior, you must be doing something wrong in the first place. [/quote]
That’s too easy pat. If I suddenly found faith ofcourse I’ll have to make changes in my behaviour. I’d have to go to church for one. Start reading the bible and even pray.
The fact that I’m not doing those things now is hardly “wrong”, but I wouldn’t act differently from how I’m behaving now, I don’t think.
[/quote]
Really? There are those who believe in God that do none of those things.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You guys are claiming to be anti-abortion, going as far as calling it a holocaust. Yet you guys have no problems holding down proven methods of preventing abortion - contraceptive use and sex health education.
If you really cared about stopping abortion why would you hold these thins down?[/quote]
You guys? Who said anything about that. I am interested in ending abortion, period… You introducing a red herring here. Have you ever seen anybody at an abortion rally holding up a sign with a rubber and a slash through it or anything of the like? I sure as hell haven’t. The fact that abortion for the sake of contraception is particularly sick, not withstanding. [/quote]
Several Christians hold the position of teaching safe sex education to children as wrong and contraception use as immoral while being pro-life.
If you’re interested in ending abortion by extension you would also be in favour of lowering abortion rates. It’s not a red herring, it’s true. WHy would you prevent safe sex education and condemn condom use if you want to stop abortion period?
[/quote]
It is a red herring, your trying to divert the conversation over to contraception, that has nothing to do with whether or not abortion is murder.
I don’t care how people feel about contraception, that doesn’t make abortion right.
There is plenty of education and support and availability of contraception, more so than any other time in history, and there abortion rate holds steady at 1.2 million annually. Apparently, raising awareness providing and educating about contraception has not made a solitary dent in the abortion rates. So as valid as the ideology sounds, it does not translate in to real world numbers. [/quote]
I’m not saying it makes abortion right man.
I’m saying holding the view that we should not teach safe sex to children, condemn condom use while holding a pro-life stance is HYPOCRITICAL.[/quote]
There are plenty of pro-life people who hold that opinion, but that’s not the goal, the goal is to get rid of abortion. If contraception were the answer to abortion, I would shout it from the roof tops and hand out rubbers every where I went. But it’s not. Again, contraception is readily available to most people every where. It’s getting more and more available, it’s taught in health class it’s all over the news, it’s everywhere. The numbers of abortions have not changed as a result.
You can make it available as much as you want, you can make it free for everybody if you want, but you can’t fix stupid.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
The further back in time you go from birth the less people can relate to it in their own lives, like the moment after conception.[/quote]
Well sure, look at how we talk about pregnancy now. We’ve sanitized it. What if we always spoke of it as the human life that it is?
[/quote]
So we are in agreement that educating people should be the goal, not to convince them what is right and wrong.
[quote]pat wrote:
The numbers of abortions have not changed as a result.
[/quote]
What is causing the number of abortions to go down then?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
That’s too easy pat. If I suddenly found faith ofcourse I’ll have to make changes in my behaviour. I’d have to go to church for one. Start reading the bible and even pray.
The fact that I’m not doing those things now is hardly “wrong”, but I wouldn’t act differently from how I’m behaving now, I don’t think.
[/quote]
Really? There are those who believe in God that do none of those things.[/quote]
I’m sorry, but ever since Sloth said that someone who’s pro-choice can’t be a christian I got confused.
What kind of behaviour do you expect me [for instance] to change if I suddenly saw the light and believed?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
What traits does a 28 year old sufiandy who’s been in a motorcycle wreck and is comatose have that a 24 week fetus doesn’t?[/quote]
What traits does my post have where I specified a 24 week fetus?
For your 3 other questions size is 1 trait that is different, both body size and brain size. So if either of those falls below a minimum size requirement to be human it can be killed. Is that the kind of answer you were looking for?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
The further back in time you go from birth the less people can relate to it in their own lives, like the moment after conception.[/quote]
Well sure, look at how we talk about pregnancy now. We’ve sanitized it. What if we always spoke of it as the human life that it is?
[/quote]
So we are in agreement that educating people should be the goal, not to convince them what is right and wrong.[/quote]
No, because me and you aren’t ignorant enough to not realize that an innocent, individual, human life is taken. So, we have a moral obligation.