Hello i currently want to achieve the following goals, Reach 15 percent body fat and squat 405 lbs. I have been doing madcow 5x5 but i am stalled all over the place on that program. Madcow is not a good program for those on a caloric deficit. I am wondering if 5/3/1 can help me reach these goals? I am 5’8 197 lbs and 20 percent body-fat. My squat max is 325lbs i have already lost 5 pounds but i need to lose about 10 to 15 more lbs of fat. I really do not want to lose strength. I want to add 80 lbs to that squat and lose 15 lbs in a year.
Your looking to put on 80lbs to your squat but are being a diet queen. This program doesn’t seem to be ideal for you in my opinion but suit yourself.
Probably need to choose one or the other and work hard to achieve it, then reassess your goals at that stage.
If I were you I’d sort my diet out; probably eat at maintenance and do 5/3/1 plus hard conditioning until I wasn’t fat. Then I would focus on healthy (muscular) weight gain while working toward the squat goal. But that’s just me.
Given the options of health or strength - I would look to achieve health first and strength second.
From my personal experience, it is not impossible to get stronger and cut. I’ve done it before and had success. Sure it may be easier to do in a surplus, but especially if you have a decent amount to lose (and at 20% you do) it really shouldn’t prevent you from getting stronger. I am sure 90% on this site wouldn’t agree with that, but again I am just speaking from my own experience.
However, I would suggest having realistic goals about how quickly you gain that strength (I.E. maybe doing only 5 lb increment increases with 5/3/1 instead of the optional 10)
There is no reason you can’t run 5/3/1 while on a deficit… just don’t be surprised if you don’t gain much strength while on a deficit.
It’s a matter of priorities. Is your goal to loose 10-15 lb or is it to gain strength? Choose a goal, focus on it until you succeed, then choose another goal.
5 years from now do you think it will really matter if you spent 3-4 months not gaining strength because you wanted to loose weight?
It is hard to continue to build strength on a calorie deficit. It can be done, but you need to keep your protein high, and have great pre-, and post- workout nutrition.
Ok, you want to lose 10-15 pounds. Losing 2 pounds a week, you can hit that goal of 15 pounds in 2 months. So be conservative, give yourself an extra month. Take a 3 month goal to lose 15 pounds.
I WOULD NOT run 5/3/1 while losing this type of weight though. Why? Because more than likely you won’t make progress then you will blame the program or change the program, when you are running the program not as intended.
Clean your diet up, then focus on strength through 5/3/1 by eating a surplus of quality food.
And besides, with the programming, losing 3 months is only going to be 30 pounds on your squat assuming you progress as planned.
Just as the others have said, you need to understand what goal you want to prioritize first. You can run 5/3/1 while doing a calorie deficit but your strength gains will be marginal at best. If you want to lose weight while maintaining strength, that is probably okay. It’s not likely you’ll be able to do both. Definitely take a good look at your diet. Maybe checkout John Meadows website and maybe even hire him if it’s in the cards for you. Shelby Starnes offers nutrition services as well and it’s not all that expensive.
Edit: Kind of to Brett’s point… Just don’t blame 5/3/1 for not making your strength goals while on a deficit. 5/3/1 is a great training system, Beyond 5/3/1 is amazing too, and if you eat appropriately you’ll reach your goals using Jim’s system.
How many times are you going to ask the same question, get the same answer, and not just do it? Try it. If it works, congrats. If it doesn’t, you learned something.
[quote]raptor669 wrote:
Hello i currently want to achieve the following goals, Reach 15 percent body fat and squat 405 lbs. I have been doing madcow 5x5 but i am stalled all over the place on that program. Madcow is not a good program for those on a caloric deficit. I am wondering if 5/3/1 can help me reach these goals? I am 5’8 197 lbs and 20 percent body-fat. My squat max is 325lbs i have already lost 5 pounds but i need to lose about 10 to 15 more lbs of fat. I really do not want to lose strength. I want to add 80 lbs to that squat and lose 15 lbs in a year.[/quote]
So I don’t get it. I went from 222 to 201 in the last 5 1/2 weeks since new years. Skinfolds done by a pro show that my bodyfat% dropped from 23% to 15%. (It does get a lot harder getting down from 15% but if you are over 15% your body will work with you to get it off. Why not lose 15 pounds in 6 weeks and then gt stronger for the rest of the year? 20 to 15% is a BLIP. Its 6-12 weeks MAX.
Even if you want to take it slow and steady, I am not even sure that someone should be on sub maintenance level calories to get from 20% to 15%. If you eat appropriate foods and nutrients and at a maintenance level, plus what you need to fuel training and a little extra to grow your body should slide down from 20 to 15% naturally. 250 to 500 cals above maintenece per day. 95% of men will have a natural body fat percentage, on an appropriate diet, with athletic training of somewhere between 10-15%.
After considering a few points on here i came up with a possible solution, assuming maintenance for me is 2900 cals and im 20 percent bodyfat I can give 5/3/1 a shot while eating 2600 cals. I say 2900 is maintenance because i have been eating about 2400 cals and losing a pound per week. My theory is that a slow cut -2.5 lbs a month will not hamper recovery on a program like 5/3/1.
This way i will be able to maintain strength and even add strength slowly while losing fat at the same time. Both goals will be worked on slowly. I will be adding weight monthly and losing 2.5 lbs if this was to work. I have also read that you can lose up to 2lbs per week and maintain strength. Not sure how true that if because to lose 2 lbs weekly id have to eat 2100 cals. losing 2.5 lbs monthly sounds safer i posted a link to one of my friends who lost 16 lbs in a year and added 50 lbs to his squat on 5/3/1.
Not sure about this but this is my theory so far. once i reach 180 lbs from 197 i plan to lean bulk a bit 200 cals over maintenance. not sure if this will work the only other alternative is to eat at maintenance and start 5/3/1 and hope my body recomps on its own.
[quote]raptor669 wrote:
After considering a few points on here i came up with a possible solution, assuming maintenance for me is 2900 cals and im 20 percent bodyfat I can give 5/3/1 a shot while eating 2600 cals. I say 2900 is maintenance because i have been eating about 2400 cals and losing a pound per week. My theory is that a slow cut -2.5 lbs a month will not hamper recovery on a program like 5/3/1.
This way i will be able to maintain strength and even add strength slowly while losing fat at the same time. Both goals will be worked on slowly. I will be adding weight monthly and losing 2.5 lbs if this was to work. I have also read that you can lose up to 2lbs per week and maintain strength. Not sure how true that if because to lose 2 lbs weekly id have to eat 2100 cals. losing 2.5 lbs monthly sounds safer i posted a link to one of my friends who lost 16 lbs in a year and added 50 lbs to his squat on 5/3/1.
Not sure about this but this is my theory so far. once i reach 180 lbs from 197 i plan to lean bulk a bit 200 cals over maintenance. not sure if this will work the only other alternative is to eat at maintenance and start 5/3/1 and hope my body recomps on its own.[/quote]
If 2900 is maintenance, do you think you are going to stay at 20% bodyfat on 2900 a day if you eat right an train? If that’s the case then it doesn’t matter, your destined to just move up to 20% naturally then. I think that eating maintenance and eating right should take you to 15% or less as a natural result.
I think you can do both at the same time, but give yourself a lot of time to do it. Slowly build strength and lose BF over a year; that way you’re seeing progress long term rather than short term. Too many want it all right now.
Maybe eat maint calories and do some type of low impact cardio like walking w/ a vest several times per week. Start your TM at 85% of your gym max and make progress slowly hitting rep maxes on your last set. Do that over a year and my bet is, you’ll achieve your goal. No matter what, when you don’t eat enough calories, do not expect strength to go thru the roof or climb quickly.
You have your whole life to train, keep BF down and strength up. Learn to train that way. Good luck.
Keep us updated I’d like to know if it works.
Ill keep you all updated, Im gonna start 5/3/1 soon ive seen some Friends loose a pound per week while microloading on the program. ill be losing weight and gaining strength super slowly. If all goes well ill post some before and after pics. Maybe i can start a log if there is a log section on here?
Anyway, if you are actually going to eat sub maintenance calories, I would only do 5-3-1 for the 2 main exercises, and don’t do any plus reps or assistance exercises. I don’t believe that anyone should do sets of more than 5 or 6 on a sub maintenance diet because the main effect of those sets is to deplete a muscle so that it will rebuild, and its not going to happen on submaintenance calories. The only thing that higher rep (6+) sets will do is insure that you lose the most muscle possible while you are reducing your bodyweight.
The more work you do with submaintenence calories, the more muscle you will lose. I would NOT have a slight reduction below maintenance level calories ever. By maintenence I mean what you need to maintain your ideal bodyweight, and fuel your training and recovery. I would either cut fast from 20 to 15% while doing maintenence strength training ONLY, or eat a high performance diet to add muscle and let your body naturally move from 20 to 15% as it wants to do over time.
If you do the fast cur first and maintain 95% of your strength you will get stronger fast when you bring your calories up. High performance OR fast cut and strength maintence are the only paths that work. The in between path is much less efficient and changing body comp and increasing muscle.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Anyway, if you are actually going to eat sub maintenance calories, I would only do 5-3-1 for the 2 main exercises, and don’t do any plus reps or assistance exercises. I don’t believe that anyone should do sets of more than 5 or 6 on a sub maintenance diet because the main effect of those sets is to deplete a muscle so that it will rebuild, and its not going to happen on submaintenance calories. The only thing that higher rep (6+) sets will do is insure that you lose the most muscle possible while you are reducing your bodyweight.
The more work you do with submaintenence calories, the more muscle you will lose. I would NOT have a slight reduction below maintenance level calories ever. By maintenence I mean what you need to maintain your ideal bodyweight, and fuel your training and recovery. I would either cut fast from 20 to 15% while doing maintenence strength training ONLY, or eat a high performance diet to add muscle and let your body naturally move from 20 to 15% as it wants to do over time.
If you do the fast cur first and maintain 95% of your strength you will get stronger fast when you bring your calories up. High performance OR fast cut and strength maintence are the only paths that work. The in between path is much less efficient and changing body comp and increasing muscle. [/quote]
Thanks im getting mixed answers, i have seen people get stronger on 5/3/1 while cutting. Ive also been told in another forum that since i am not even close to my genetic potential i can still gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.
[quote]raptor669 wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Anyway, if you are actually going to eat sub maintenance calories, I would only do 5-3-1 for the 2 main exercises, and don’t do any plus reps or assistance exercises. I don’t believe that anyone should do sets of more than 5 or 6 on a sub maintenance diet because the main effect of those sets is to deplete a muscle so that it will rebuild, and its not going to happen on submaintenance calories. The only thing that higher rep (6+) sets will do is insure that you lose the most muscle possible while you are reducing your bodyweight.
The more work you do with submaintenence calories, the more muscle you will lose. I would NOT have a slight reduction below maintenance level calories ever. By maintenence I mean what you need to maintain your ideal bodyweight, and fuel your training and recovery. I would either cut fast from 20 to 15% while doing maintenence strength training ONLY, or eat a high performance diet to add muscle and let your body naturally move from 20 to 15% as it wants to do over time.
If you do the fast cur first and maintain 95% of your strength you will get stronger fast when you bring your calories up. High performance OR fast cut and strength maintence are the only paths that work. The in between path is much less efficient and changing body comp and increasing muscle. [/quote]
Thanks im getting mixed answers, i have seen people get stronger on 5/3/1 while cutting. Ive also been told in another forum that since i am not even close to my genetic potential i can still gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.
[/quote]
That is possible, you can get stronger on a mild cut, and you may even gain muscle if you do it right on, but what I’m telling you is that it is the least efficient way to go in my opinion. Maybe in a year you are at 15% bodyfat and 5% stronger. You can be 15% bodyfat in 3 months though EASY, maintain your strength and then gain 5% in another 3 months if you focus on one goal and then the other. In my opinion. If you are that far from your potential, and you eat a high performance diet and get stronger you also can get stronger and lose 5% without cutting calories.
Again it does not take calorie reduction to get down to 15% bodyfat. It takes a sound diet with the right dose of training. It SEEMS to me (and it would be normal) that you may be secretly hoping to get leaner than your stated goal of 15%.
My basic model is that if you eat the RIGHT number of calories and amount of nutrients, and avoid bad stuff, and you TRAIN, your body will tend to arrive the at optimal body fat percentage for the performance of your training, which for 95% of the population will occur at 10-15%, and probably right around 12%.
I agree with the above quite a bit.
First off, I’m not an expert on this stuff by any means but I typically see two competing theories on forums like this one. On one end you have the bodybuilders, who typically try to figure out the bare minimum amount of food they can subsist on while still pursuing their training goals, and on the other end you have athletes, who at times can struggle to eat enough food.
My personal opinion is that if you train like an athlete (i.e., strength and conditioning) while not eating a ton of garbage you’ll naturally tend to settle into a suitable weight (for me it’s the 12-15% range). IMO counting calories is more of an issue for dudes who want to only lift and not train cardio, or who want to achieve unnatural levels of leanness without simply being skinny.
In fact, if I wanted to sum it up, I think that you might very well go from 20% to 15% bodyfat FASTER by eating the RIGHT amount of calories for your ideal BW than by restricting calories.