why was this thread started
I think alot of people dont understand bricks post. I will provide the simplest analogy known to man. If you want to look like Ronnie Coleman, Arnold, Dorian Yates or any successful bodybuilder for that matter, then why the fuck would you train like a power lifter, cross country runner, or Olympic athletes.
Power lifters train like other power lifters to become as strong as possible. Sprinters train like other sprinters to run as fast as possible. Why is it that only bodybuilders on this site want to train like power lifters, or Olympic lifters or whatever the fuck it is.
It makes no sense. I have never seen a power lifter say Im using a bodybuilding routine to get stronger and I never seen a professional bodybuilder doing westside to get bigger.
[quote]charlotte49er wrote:
why was this thread started[/quote]
We are all about semantics and minutia here at T-Nation.
Im about to start a thread on where the best place to park your car at the gym is for maximal gains.
[quote]Hazzyhazz24 wrote:
I think alot of people dont understand bricks post. I will provide the simplest analogy known to man. If you want to look like Ronnie Coleman, Arnold, Dorian Yates or any successful bodybuilder for that matter, then why the fuck would you train like a power lifter, cross country runner, or Olympic athletes.
Power lifters train like other power lifters to become as strong as possible. Sprinters train like other sprinters to run as fast as possible. Why is it that only bodybuilders on this site want to train like power lifters, or Olympic lifters or whatever the fuck it is.
It makes no sense. I have never seen a power lifter say Im using a bodybuilding routine to get stronger and I never seen a professional bodybuilder doing westside to get bigger.[/quote]
Well said…yet look at the people who are mostly arguing against this like Dankid (no pics ever).
The only reason this shit exists is due to so many authors making bodybuilding out to be a negative as if you aren’t “functional” as a result. None of this was around before that.
I am not sure why rugby players and MMA trainers are even in this thread OR this forum.
Dorian Yates said it best…the goal of bodybuilding training is to make the exercise as difficult as possible. The goal of powerlifting training is to move the weight from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible. Now, no one can tell me Dorian was not strong, but strength was never his goal, it was a byproduct of increasing muscle mass (and favorable genetics).
Impress with your physique, not how much weight you can lift (especially since your 315 bench doesn’t mean shit to anyone who knows anything)!
Why are people so confused on this? Pick a goal that works for you, and train to meet that goal. There was an article on here by Dave Tate I think, who said people read way too much shit, and overcomplicate their routines, they try and do 5/3/1 and GPP and German Volume training while trying to bulk, all at the same time, and then complain that 5/3/1 is no good and they didn’t put on any weight.
My coach told me that if I want to get stronger, I need to lift heavy weights. Thats a pretty simplistic attitude, but it is true. I hate seeing these fat trainers at the gym putting people through crappy routines, what good is having a 300# person do bicep curls and Bosu ball squats?
Hazzyhazz is right, in my opinion.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Patbone wrote:
Wasn’t there a great quote that explained this phenomena before… You can’t put your ass on two Horses… Size and strength can (mingle) together but you can’t get much mass outta strength
[/quote]
Really?
I trained from the start to get stronger in a 6-10 rep range. I ate to get bigger. There was none of this confusion because no one then was retarded enough to think you got HUGE without getting a hell of a lot stronger. They went hand in hand.
The idea that they now must be trained for seperately is a new one…and we can just see the HOARDS of huge bodybuilders being built from this mind set.
I mean, I just trip over people with 18" arms or bigger all day fucking long.[/quote]
Amen!
Where strength goes, size is sure to follow.
and as Bill pointed out-it’s tangible/measurable value.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am not sure why rugby players and MMA trainers are even in this thread OR this forum.
[/quote]
Rugby players and martial artists can’t be recreational bodybuilders too?
The thread seemed to develop into a discussion of the relative merits of training for size and/or strength, and the differences, if any. I was just offering an opinion based on the fact that I have to cycle the two for my sport.
[quote]GuerillaZen wrote:
Aside from the volume thing, I think there is one other major component that is different between bodybuilders and powerlifters and that is diet. The few powerlifters that I know are all carrying around heaps of muscle mass, but do not necessarily look like it because they are also carrying around a large amount of fat on top.
That does not mean their training has not added a ton of mass and can be useful at times for bodybuilding, it just means they’ve made quite a few trips through the drive through.
The strongest mofo in my gym goes straight from the gym to McDonalds every day. He has a shitload of muscle mass, but looks like a fat guy. The key here is that both groups get bigger by training to get stronger - bodybuilders simply use a higher volume and eat tons of healthy foods.
Most, not all, powerlifters do a little less volume and get a lot calories from both “clean” and “dirty” foods. It is not an either or. I do not believe it is even possible to get bigger muscles without getting stronger muscles.[/quote]
This may be the case with many powerlifters, but it is the result of diet decisions not the style of training.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
I have never trained with less than 5 rep sets, and I got plenty strong in my 1 RM. The only real difference I see with most BB and PL training is BB train to get strong in a higher rep range. BB might do 315 x 12 to failure and the PL trains 385 x 3, if both have the same 1 rm. Thats really about the only difference I see. [/quote]
Well said. Bodybuilding and powerlifting used to be thought of as very similar with only that difference.
The blame has to fall on the “functional strength bullshitters”. That is the only reason people started thinking you get huge by not worrying about strength at all. That and the retarded assumption that strength doesn’t count unless it is in a one rep max form tested event.[/quote]
I’ve done WS4SB and I’ve been on the 5/3/1 for 5 months now. My progress regarding strength has been phenomenal. It applies to everything I do athletically. To me strength is key. A lot of BJJ guys and fighters get caught up in “functional” mentality. They short change themselves. I kid you not, the 5/3/1 has been a blessing. I can tweak the assistance exercises anyway I want, for instance if I’m close to a competition and cutting weight I will reduce the volume. If I’m on off season i will increase volume. I get my conditioning in as well.
As an athlete I don’t benefit much from these “newer” versions of what a BBng routine is. However, with the 5/3/1 I get my strength, I can build muscle and keep conditioned.
Professor X, your posts are alway a pleasure to read…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Hazzyhazz24 wrote:
I think alot of people dont understand bricks post. I will provide the simplest analogy known to man. If you want to look like Ronnie Coleman, Arnold, Dorian Yates or any successful bodybuilder for that matter, then why the fuck would you train like a power lifter, cross country runner, or Olympic athletes.
Power lifters train like other power lifters to become as strong as possible. Sprinters train like other sprinters to run as fast as possible. Why is it that only bodybuilders on this site want to train like power lifters, or Olympic lifters or whatever the fuck it is.
It makes no sense. I have never seen a power lifter say Im using a bodybuilding routine to get stronger and I never seen a professional bodybuilder doing westside to get bigger.[/quote]
Well said…yet look at the people who are mostly arguing against this like Dankid (no pics ever).
The only reason this shit exists is due to so many authors making bodybuilding out to be a negative as if you aren’t “functional” as a result. None of this was around before that.
I am not sure why rugby players and MMA trainers are even in this thread OR this forum.
[/quote]
I’m right here Professor X!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The lateral raise machine is why my shoulders are as wide as they are. They did not grow like that while I was only using dumbbells for the movement. My forearms were a limiting factor as far as the weight used. I go VERY heavy on that machine (adding two 45lbs plates to the weight stack). This is apparently something quite a few people find to be strange considering the looks I get carrying those plates to the machine.[/quote]
Off topic, but is this the machine you are talking about?
“Dorian Yates said it best…the goal of bodybuilding training is to make the exercise as difficult as possible. The goal of powerlifting training is to move the weight from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible.”
Bingo.
Strength is simply moving a maximal amount of weight. You shorten the distance traveled, you make each exercise used as much muscle as possible.
In Bodybuilding you are targeting each muscle to grow. I could do a squat and make it much more of a lower back and glute exercise or I could do a squat and make it much more of a quad exercise. Same with bench. I actually got a cramp in my lower back doing Bench singles.
The difference between strength and hypertrophy isn’t so much the exercises used or the rep range used as it is the application of the exercises and reps used.
No I don’t have pictures but I’ve put 100lb on my squat in 18 months and about 85 on my bench. At 5’5 I’ve gone from a low of 143lb to a high of 180lb. I’ve spent most of my time in that 6-12 range because I have common sense. I’ve done periods of pushing 5 reps and under again because I have common sense, currently doing a variation of a 5-3-1 for the simple purpose of getting my maxes up. Why? Because I understand that Squating 300lbs for 1 rep will making Squating 225 for mutliple reps that much easier. It lays that dirt road per se, before you pour the asphalt.
Also the stress on your body from pumping out those singles, doubles, and triples DRASTICALLY reduces the total volume that you’re able to do and I mean both in the macro sense and micro sense (per body part, per week, per month, per day, etc) That again, is just common sense.
People think too much and that is the problem. Seek progress. Use your brain. The rest will come naturally.
Alan
[quote]tap_u_out wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Hazzyhazz24 wrote:
I think alot of people dont understand bricks post. I will provide the simplest analogy known to man. If you want to look like Ronnie Coleman, Arnold, Dorian Yates or any successful bodybuilder for that matter, then why the fuck would you train like a power lifter, cross country runner, or Olympic athletes.
Power lifters train like other power lifters to become as strong as possible. Sprinters train like other sprinters to run as fast as possible. Why is it that only bodybuilders on this site want to train like power lifters, or Olympic lifters or whatever the fuck it is.
It makes no sense. I have never seen a power lifter say Im using a bodybuilding routine to get stronger and I never seen a professional bodybuilder doing westside to get bigger.[/quote]
Well said…yet look at the people who are mostly arguing against this like Dankid (no pics ever).
The only reason this shit exists is due to so many authors making bodybuilding out to be a negative as if you aren’t “functional” as a result. None of this was around before that.
I am not sure why rugby players and MMA trainers are even in this thread OR this forum.
[/quote]
I’m right here Professor X![/quote]
…
OK.
Who the hell are you?
[quote]RTJenforcer wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am not sure why rugby players and MMA trainers are even in this thread OR this forum.
[/quote]
Rugby players and martial artists can’t be recreational bodybuilders too?
The thread seemed to develop into a discussion of the relative merits of training for size and/or strength, and the differences, if any. I was just offering an opinion based on the fact that I have to cycle the two for my sport.
[/quote]
Are you fucking serious?
I used to train martial arts with the FULL understanding that my progress would be subpar in the gym as long as I was spending three night a week sparring.
It isn’t about whether you can do bodybuilding on the side. This is about making the most progress, not simply doing shit randomly just so you can say you did it.
Most of you won’t see much at all in the way of gains because you won’t pick a fucking goal and run with it. You are trying to be “super athlete who does MMA, boxes, runs marathons, does power lifting all while squatting on a fucking bosu ball”.
If you happen to be one of these “all over the fucking place” people, then either accept you will make lesser progress in EVERYTHING or just stay out of the way.
Unless you now get stopped regularly because of looking like a bodybuilder, I doubt anyone cares.
[quote]tap_u_out wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]MODOK wrote:
I have never trained with less than 5 rep sets, and I got plenty strong in my 1 RM. The only real difference I see with most BB and PL training is BB train to get strong in a higher rep range. BB might do 315 x 12 to failure and the PL trains 385 x 3, if both have the same 1 rm. Thats really about the only difference I see. [/quote]
Well said. Bodybuilding and powerlifting used to be thought of as very similar with only that difference.
The blame has to fall on the “functional strength bullshitters”. That is the only reason people started thinking you get huge by not worrying about strength at all. That and the retarded assumption that strength doesn’t count unless it is in a one rep max form tested event.[/quote]
I’ve done WS4SB and I’ve been on the 5/3/1 for 5 months now. My progress regarding strength has been phenomenal. It applies to everything I do athletically. To me strength is key. A lot of BJJ guys and fighters get caught up in “functional” mentality. They short change themselves. I kid you not, the 5/3/1 has been a blessing. I can tweak the assistance exercises anyway I want, for instance if I’m close to a competition and cutting weight I will reduce the volume. If I’m on off season i will increase volume. I get my conditioning in as well.
As an athlete I don’t benefit much from these “newer” versions of what a BBng routine is. However, with the 5/3/1 I get my strength, I can build muscle and keep conditioned.
Professor X, your posts are alway a pleasure to read…[/quote]
Your idea of “phenomenal” is not the same as everyone else’s.
Micheal Jordan was a great basketball player. He was just an “ok” baseball player. He picked a goal and stuck with it after being sure what he was most good at even though he tried his hand at both.
It seems some of you think you can do EVERYTHING and match the results of someone hell bent on achieving one goal. It ain’t happenin’.
No one is saying you are training wrong either. We are saying the goals of someone who is looking to be a bodybuilder on some level is NOT the same as someone trying to compete n fighting matches.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]GuerillaZen wrote:
Aside from the volume thing, I think there is one other major component that is different between bodybuilders and powerlifters and that is diet. The few powerlifters that I know are all carrying around heaps of muscle mass, but do not necessarily look like it because they are also carrying around a large amount of fat on top.
That does not mean their training has not added a ton of mass and can be useful at times for bodybuilding, it just means they’ve made quite a few trips through the drive through.
The strongest mofo in my gym goes straight from the gym to McDonalds every day. He has a shitload of muscle mass, but looks like a fat guy. The key here is that both groups get bigger by training to get stronger - bodybuilders simply use a higher volume and eat tons of healthy foods.
Most, not all, powerlifters do a little less volume and get a lot calories from both “clean” and “dirty” foods. It is not an either or. I do not believe it is even possible to get bigger muscles without getting stronger muscles.[/quote]
This may be the case with many powerlifters, but it is the result of diet decisions not the style of training.
[/quote]
You are right but…
Their method WORKS also as far as getting big. That is why many of the most densely built bodybuilders also spent time training like powerlifters. Johnnie Jackson obviously does not eat the same all year round until he is dieting for a contest.
I know I made a hell of a lot of progress by not being extremely worried about “only eating clean” all of the time. My body needed the excess calories. It means I can now diet down n an amount of food that most people would gain on.
[quote]S C 0 0 Z E wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The lateral raise machine is why my shoulders are as wide as they are. They did not grow like that while I was only using dumbbells for the movement. My forearms were a limiting factor as far as the weight used. I go VERY heavy on that machine (adding two 45lbs plates to the weight stack). This is apparently something quite a few people find to be strange considering the looks I get carrying those plates to the machine.[/quote]
Off topic, but is this the machine you are talking about?[/quote]
Yeah, but the one I use is made differently. You can hang extra weights off the weight stack by using the pin. The one you posted can’t do that. I don’t even fit in most of those that I see. I just happened to find one I do fit in and can add weight to.
In other words, most machines made like that do NOT help me much.
[quote]ayork90 wrote:
for example
wendler’s 5,3,1 may help get you stronger, and a little bigger if your eating right
but it will not a bodybuilder make[/quote]
I didn’t realize that 20-30 lbs of relatively lean mass in a year’s time was “a little bigger”. That’s the average I’ve seen trainees gaining with 5/3/1. Take note that these aren’t lifters TRYING to gain weight, but ones training for strength and eating as their appetite dictates. Since working up to a heavy set of 5-15 reps with a PR weight on basic compound movements followed by more volume with isolation exercises to focus on weak points and build muscle “does not a bodybuilder make”, will you please tell us what does?
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I didn’t realize that 20-30 lbs of relatively lean mass in a year’s time was “a little bigger”. [/quote]
That’s good. For a beginner, 20-30lbs would probably be average across the board assuming their genetics don’t suck and they are serious about weight lifting.
Beginner gains should be coming almost no matter what unless someone is just screwed up on the very basics of lifting weights.