Why Train for Strength If Size Is Wanted?

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
What are we talking about here? Brick you’re trying very hard (I don’t know why) to put your ideological thinking out there. Its all semantics. Is being huge the equivalent of being a bodybuilder? We have guys in pro wrestling, the Lashleys, the Cenas and the Ezekiel Jacksons looking huge but they aren’t bodybuilders. What are they doing when they are in the gym? We don’t have to call it anything but TRAINING. I could care less if a guy was doing push ups and curls all day but at the end of the day he looked like something. Feel me? I learned and etched a phrase into my brain not so long ago that went along the lines of “results are all that matter.” If I’m following the I bodybuilder program I’m not doing a program strictly done by Kai Greene or Dexter Jackson even though the principles of both MAY be very similar or identical; intertwined, mashed and mushed to the point where you cant extract them.

[/quote]

You seem confused.

Most of the people here don’t seem to be making all that much progress. Hell, most of the ones who are happen to be in the T-Cell already. Most of the people here making “results are all that matter” do not train that differently. Who here is saying “train exactly like Kai Greene”?

I’ve seen Triple H train up close when he came to Houston. He was doing curls in a 8-10 rep range. Exactly how differently do you think these guys train OUTSIDE of training specifically for wrestling moves?

42

[quote]dankid wrote:
The name of the program says it all, and for many people going through the program and progressing your lifts in strength, within a couple of months you will be much better off down the road that someone that just starts with “bodybuilding routines”.
[/quote]

Really? I started off using a “bodybuilding routine”. I got a hell of a lot stronger. You are saying I should have done “starting strength” because any progress I made by not doing it was less?

Why is it we have not seen what you look like yet?

43

its been my view that strength is the key to progression… if you focus on increasing your deadlift or squat max then your 10 rep squat will increase and your 20 rep squat will increase. same with every lift. the more you can lift once the more you can lift multiple times.

it allows progression and overload via increases in load and volume without putting too much stress on joints and cns. ultimately nutrition is gonna play a huge role aswell. as if you expect amazing results in a 4-6 week period anyway. consistancy counts for alot too. the guy that trains with intensity and frequency usually has better result than someone who over complicates things trying to find miracle programs

44

[quote]dankid wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

It’s not the getting stronger -part that brick is going against here I think… That’s integral to bodybuilding.

It’s just that starting strength, for example, is just not a good routine for bodybuilding purposes.

[/quote]

It may not be a “bodybuilding routine” but for MANY people Starting Strength is the best routine for bodybuilding purposes. The name of the program says it all, and for many people going through the program and progressing your lifts in strength, within a couple of months you will be much better off down the road that someone that just starts with “bodybuilding routines”.

**You guys think you know what your are talking about, and it sounds like you do, but you are using opinions and speculation along with LOUD TALKING to try to claim what you know.[/quote]

LOL!

Didn’t you learn your lesson about trying to tell people more accomplished than you are they are wrong when you told Meat he was wrong in that thread?

The forum was some much better without your shitty input.

45

[quote]dankid wrote:

It may not be a “bodybuilding routine” but for MANY people Starting Strength is the best routine for LEARNING TO LIFT WEIGHTS. The name of the program says it all, and for many people going through the program and progressing your lifts in strength, within a couple of months you will be much better off down the road that someone that just starts with MEN’S HEALTH ROUTINES.

**You guys know what your are talking about, and it sounds like you do, but you are using opinions and speculation along with LOUD TALKING to try to educate lost sheep like my self[/quote]

Great post brah. Fixed a few errors for you though.

46

[quote]dankid wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

It’s not the getting stronger -part that brick is going against here I think… That’s integral to bodybuilding.

It’s just that starting strength, for example, is just not a good routine for bodybuilding purposes.

[/quote]

It may not be a “bodybuilding routine” but for MANY people Starting Strength is the best routine for bodybuilding purposes. The name of the program says it all, and for many people going through the program and progressing your lifts in strength, within a couple of months you will be much better off down the road that someone that just starts with “bodybuilding routines”.

**You guys think you know what your are talking about, and it sounds like you do, but you are using opinions and speculation along with LOUD TALKING to try to claim what you know.[/quote]

I think the only reason beginners see progress from a routine like that is because it actually gets them squatting, benching, deadlifting, and overhead pressing. Rather than sitting on the pec deck, leg extension, and delt machines for months on end and not doing much else (because for some reason people think isolation exercises are the ONLY components of a bodybuilding program).

However, if these same guys were to be doing all those big compound lifts, AND isolation exercises, I’ll be their progress would be even better. Not to mention they would actually be learning how their own body responds to a routine that they’ve made THEMSELVES.
I mean seriously, why would anybody whose goal is to attain big muscles and avoid lots of imbalances exclude any of those lifts??

47

[quote]Sharp4850 wrote:

[quote]dankid wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

It’s not the getting stronger -part that brick is going against here I think… That’s integral to bodybuilding.

It’s just that starting strength, for example, is just not a good routine for bodybuilding purposes.

[/quote]

It may not be a “bodybuilding routine” but for MANY people Starting Strength is the best routine for bodybuilding purposes. The name of the program says it all, and for many people going through the program and progressing your lifts in strength, within a couple of months you will be much better off down the road that someone that just starts with “bodybuilding routines”.

**You guys think you know what your are talking about, and it sounds like you do, but you are using opinions and speculation along with LOUD TALKING to try to claim what you know.[/quote]

I think the only reason beginners see progress from a routine like that is because it actually gets them squatting, benching, deadlifting, and overhead pressing. Rather than sitting on the pec deck, leg extension, and delt machines for months on end and not doing much else (because for some reason people think isolation exercises are the ONLY components of a bodybuilding program).

However, if these same guys were to be doing all those big compound lifts, AND isolation exercises, I’ll be their progress would be even better. Not to mention they would actually be learning how their own body responds to a routine that they’ve made THEMSELVES.
I mean seriously, why would anybody whose goal is to attain big muscles and avoid lots of imbalances exclude any of those lifts??[/quote]

the built in concept of add weight to the bar every workout is good too.

Not too many people these days can actually think anymore, so having progressive weight increases spelled out for the masses is a good thing.

MR touches on a good amount of concepts that brand new lifters need to be aware of, eat more, lift heavier, stress your body, don’t be a pussy, K.I.S.S., etc. I just think the routine isn’t the best idea for someone hoping to actually look like a BB without playing catch up later. (I’m also not a fan of the un-coached powerclean.)

48

[quote]MODOK wrote:
I have never trained with less than 5 rep sets, and I got plenty strong in my 1 RM. The only real difference I see with most BB and PL training is BB train to get strong in a higher rep range. BB might do 315 x 12 to failure and the PL trains 385 x 3, if both have the same 1 rm. Thats really about the only difference I see. [/quote]

Well said. Bodybuilding and powerlifting used to be thought of as very similar with only that difference.

The blame has to fall on the “functional strength bullshitters”. That is the only reason people started thinking you get huge by not worrying about strength at all. That and the retarded assumption that strength doesn’t count unless it is in a one rep max form tested event.

49

Surely if you add weight to the bar each workout (or try to progress in someway) you will get stronger in whatever rep range you happen to be doing… doesn’t matter if you train with 1 rep or 100.

Ive personally always used the 6 - 12 rep range myself, that said the “fastest way to build muscle humanly possible” (IBB) seems to never go above 5 so what do i know.

50

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:
I have never trained with less than 5 rep sets, and I got plenty strong in my 1 RM. The only real difference I see with most BB and PL training is BB train to get strong in a higher rep range. BB might do 315 x 12 to failure and the PL trains 385 x 3, if both have the same 1 rm. Thats really about the only difference I see. [/quote]

Well said. Bodybuilding and powerlifting used to be thought of as very similar with only that difference.

The blame has to fall on the “functional strength bullshitters”. That is the only reason people started thinking you get huge by not worrying about strength at all. That and the retarded assumption that strength doesn’t count unless it is in a one rep max form tested event.[/quote]

Its funny, because I agree 100% with what MODOK said, but if I were to have said it you woul have had a completely different “opinion”…

The problem is, that people always think in extremes, and then there are people like Bricknyce that for some reason or another need validation so try to belittle everyone elses ideas of training.

531 is what brought this thread about, and if you look at the program there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with it for “bodybuilding” purposes. Wendler even makes recommendations on using the routine for bodybuilding. The differences are very minor in the grand scheme of things.

As or isolation exercises, most strength athletes perform quite a few isolation movements, but they do it for different reasons than bodybuilders. Most people will reach the point where they cant continue to add more and more volume with heavy compound movements, and thus isolation movements are needed to further stress muscle hypertrophy without overloading other areas.

Like I said though. People tend to think in extremes. Everyone will think that bodybuilding routines are all isolation machine moves and strength routines are all free weight heavy low rep compound moves. If you start thinking this way, then both types of routines are crap.

Both bodybuilding routines and Strength routines can be “optimal” for strength/size. And the truth is a good bodybuilding routine is not that much different than a good powerlifting routine. They are similar in the core concepts, and only differ in minor areas. What is really going to make a difference is the individual’s goals and how they go about applying the program to reach those goals. As long as this is the case, Bricknyce’s opinions are pointless.

Funny thread. Id expect so much more from someone as wise as Brick though.

51

Size through strength… but where do you want that size and in function of what.

Powerlifting, size through strength in function to deadlift more, to bench more, to squat more.
Bodybuilding, size through strength in function to look like a bodybuilder.

Because of this difference, a physique of a powerlifter will look different than that of a bodybuilder and the other way around.

And in that function a training routine is made. So why is this so hard to understand?

52

Speaking from a boxer’s point of view, after much research I would never advise a fellow boxer to follow a bodybuilding hypertrophy routine as it could potentially harm some athletic qualities neccessary to boxing. If you have a need as a boxer/combat athlete to gain weight, generally low(er) rep/volume routines are suggested.

So the goal there is still size, but with the mind of maintaining/improving athletic qualities.

I Imagine this same focus may apply for some other types of athletes, hope this answers your questions, food for thought etc etc.

53

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]CGspot wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]CGspot wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]ayork90 wrote:
for example

wendler’s 5,3,1 may help get you stronger, and a little bigger if your eating right

but it will not a bodybuilder make[/quote]

Correct![/quote]

I tried training for size using pretty much the same principles as you outlined in an older thread (not sure what it was named exactly) and it really didn’t work for me. I found I couldnt get a response from my body without squat, bench, and deadlift. Now training for strength (using 531) I’ve added more size than I did when training for size.

I’m guessing everybody is different and responds differently to different methods.[/quote]

What person in their right mind, including myself in that thread, NOT recommend using some variation of the deadlift, bench press, and squat? I didn’t reach a bodyweight of 250 at 5’10" several years ago by avoiding these exercises.

Nearly all top bodybuilders did some variation of those exercises at some time in their careers.

And I’m not against training for strength specifically at some times during the year either for recreation, fun, and variety (considering none of us has to specialize because we don’t earn a living from either powerlifting or bodybuilding) or to blast through strength (and maybe size) plateaus. As I wrote in that thread, several times, I followed a Westside programs for half the year for several years.

And also in that thread, I wrote “large muscle groups get 2 COMPOUND exercises and 1 or 2 isolation exercises” and “small muscle groups get 1 or 2 COMPOUND exercises (eg, BENCH, SQUAT, DEADLIFT) and 1 or 2 isolation exercises”. [/quote]

Well from what I’ve seen in the bodybuilding gym I trained at none of the body builders did free weight bench, squat, or deadlift. Yes they used variations like hammer machine presses and leg press/machine squat(which are all compound lifts). When I stopped doing those three big lifts and moved to machines I got no where.

[/quote]

First, what defines “bodybuilder” to you in terms of size…and why would you even look at someone much larger than you and assume they never did squats or bench press?

Do you even bother speaking to people?

I use more machines now also. That doesn’t erase the several years I spent doing other movements.[/quote]

Yes I did talk to people. I talked to everyone. At least one was a former mr. ohio and another was in a competition to win his pro card. They both worked with aspiring bodybuilders. The only people to recommend free-weight squats, deadlifts, and presses were the powerlifters. All the bodybuilders either said they used to do free weight squats, deads, presses but were only getting hurt and working out their joints. No one said to me you’re still getting into this you should focus more on those lifts. I took their advice and what I read in the ‘prof x how do you train’ forum and I used the hammer machines, leg presses, hack squats, dumbbell curls ect. Almost all compound lifts. I found that I just wasn’t progressing. After a while I switched to 531 and all my weights started going up, including my bodyweight.

I will admit too that I changed my diet around the time I changed the way I lifted. Still that doesn’t negate the fact that I never felt completely spent at the end of my workouts until I went back to free-weights. Now I hardly ever use machines and I love the way I train.

Now before you start screaming about why is a beginner trying to lift like an expert; I have been lifting for over 8 years even if I didn’t always know exactly what I was doing. I figured I knew my own body enough to be able to train the way the bodybuilders I watched did.

Anyway it’s getting off topic now since the question was why train for strength is size is wanted. My answer is I’ve gotten better size results training like a powerlifter

54

Aside from the volume thing, I think there is one other major component that is different between bodybuilders and powerlifters and that is diet. The few powerlifters that I know are all carrying around heaps of muscle mass, but do not necessarily look like it because they are also carrying around a large amount of fat on top.

That does not mean their training has not added a ton of mass and can be useful at times for bodybuilding, it just means they’ve made quite a few trips through the drive through.

The strongest mofo in my gym goes straight from the gym to McDonalds every day. He has a shitload of muscle mass, but looks like a fat guy. The key here is that both groups get bigger by training to get stronger - bodybuilders simply use a higher volume and eat tons of healthy foods.

Most, not all, powerlifters do a little less volume and get a lot calories from both “clean” and “dirty” foods. It is not an either or. I do not believe it is even possible to get bigger muscles without getting stronger muscles.

55

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]CGspot wrote:
Well from what I’ve seen in the bodybuilding gym I trained at none of the body builders did free weight bench, squat, or deadlift. Yes they used variations like hammer machine presses and leg press/machine squat(which are all compound lifts). When I stopped doing those three big lifts and moved to machines I got no where.

[/quote]

Why don’t you post that routine, sets, reps here… Maybe a week from your logbook, plus how you progressed over the next month and what you ate?

Sounds very suspect to me… Did you stop progressing all out of a sudden or what?
[/quote]

I started with an exercise like a hammer machine press. Warmed up. Did a couple of sets of ten reps all the while adding weight. Stopped when I couldn’t get to 10. Meaning I went as hard as I could and if I got 6 I got 6. I then would sometimes cut the weight in half and quickly grind out 15-20 more reps. Then I’d move on to another chest exercise. For a day like chest I would use about 3-4 different exercise. I did not cut the weight in half after every exercise. I looked for progression by trying to get more reps week to week.

My split was chest, back, legs, shoulders, arms. MTRFS.

I was eating low carb. Tons of fatty meats. Something like 10oz every meal. Plus a lot of eggs, cheeses, nuts etc. I was not keeping track of cals at that time.

My point is though that even though I trained the way the bodybuilders did (and under their guidance) I never felt as drained after a workout as I do now.

56

Training for rugby we have a clear split between the two types of training we do - we do hypertrophy in post and preseason, and then strength training during the season.

Although there is a difference in results, that’s not to say the reason we don’t get bigger during the season is the type of training we do; it could be because we get a lot more conditioning during the season.

I think in looking for a difference people need to be a bit more objective in their outlook - for example I’m pretty sure our results would be less contrasting if our sessions weren’t cycled in with our conditioning the way they are.

57

A little digresion here, just thought of something. May be completely wrong, this is the conjuration of some limited biology knowledge and (hopefully) common sense of an 18 year old, so no need to shoot me down :slight_smile:

ATP (energy) in anaerobic conditions (lifting weights) is made in glycolysis…
Glycolysis happen in the mitocondrium of a cell…
Hypertrophy is the muscle cell membrane being filled with, in addition to probably other random stuff, more mitocondrium organelles, which means;
More mass = more energy = more strength…

Now, the neurologic system isn’t factored in here, which is obviously a major player in this whole process. But following these thoughts, really the only difference between powerlifters and bodybuilders is that powerlifters seek to maximize neurologic effiency in the 3 lifts?

Short version: BIG=STRONG/STRONG=BIG

58

[quote]GuerillaZen wrote:
Aside from the volume thing, I think there is one other major component that is different between bodybuilders and powerlifters and that is diet. The few powerlifters that I know are all carrying around heaps of muscle mass, but do not necessarily look like it because they are also carrying around a large amount of fat on top.

That does not mean their training has not added a ton of mass and can be useful at times for bodybuilding, it just means they’ve made quite a few trips through the drive through.

The strongest mofo in my gym goes straight from the gym to McDonalds every day. He has a shitload of muscle mass, but looks like a fat guy. The key here is that both groups get bigger by training to get stronger - bodybuilders simply use a higher volume and eat tons of healthy foods.

Most, not all, powerlifters do a little less volume and get a lot calories from both “clean” and “dirty” foods. It is not an either or. I do not believe it is even possible to get bigger muscles without getting stronger muscles.[/quote]

Right line of thinking here. One of the biggest differences is what the individual’s priorities are. They both NEED to add a lot of strength and a lot of muscle mass, and the methods for achieving these are VERY similar. But the Pl’er will do so in a way that will increase their competition lifts, while a BB’er will do so in order to improve their lagging muscles.

The Powerlifter doesn’t really care about body fat (just weight class) so they aren’t concerned as much with staying lean, while the BBer’s goals as far as body comp are obviously different.

Another important thing to consider is why individuals choose a certain sport. I dont have proof, but i’d speculte that there are some factors that will predispose someone to bodybuilding vs. powerlifting.

For example, individuals that put on more muscle mass and stay leaner (whether it be genetics or adherance to diets) will be more likely to go into bodybuilding, while individuals that have a hard time gaining muscle without getting fat might just decide to become a powerlifter. And individuals that are strong for their size, or have strength come easier will probably be more likely to become a powerlifter.

All of this, and the fact that comparing top level powerlifters and bodybuilders to most of us here is pretty trivial, make Bricknyc’s thread silly.

59

I love bodybuilding and getting bigger, but I’ve personally always felt more comfortable training in the lower rep ranges (1 to 5). Obviously I’m nowhere near advanced or experienced enough to tell anyone what to do, but I’ve added 80 pounds to my frame in the last year and a half or so (maybe 20 of that being fat, and up to 15 pounds being water as I drink 2 gallons a day). I did Big Beyond Belief for 2 months and made good progress until I blew out my shoulder, and after I finish this cut I plan to go back to a bodybuilding program. I wish I’d starter out training bodybuilding style as I think I could have made more progress but hell, I’m young.

60

A little digresion here, just thought of something. May be completely wrong, this is the conjuration of some limited biology knowledge and (hopefully) common sense of an 18 year old, so no need to shoot me down :slight_smile:

ATP (energy) in anaerobic conditions (lifting weights) is made in glycolysis…
Glycolysis happen in the mitocondrium of a cell…
Hypertrophy is the muscle cell membrane being filled with, in addition to probably other random stuff, more mitocondrium organelles, which means;
More mass = more energy = more strength…

Now, the neurologic system isn’t factored in here, which is obviously a major player in this whole process. But following these thoughts, really the only difference between powerlifters and bodybuilders is that powerlifters seek to maximize neurologic effiency in the 3 lifts?

Short version: BIG=STRONG/STRONG=BIG