why not do both?
On my back days I do pull ups and pull downs. I dont see why people seem to be making it an “either or” situation
Prof X,
Did you ever use straight-arm pulldowns in your routines regularly?
[quote]gregron wrote:
why not do both?
On my back days I do pull ups and pull downs. I dont see why people seem to be making it an “either or” situation[/quote]
I’m not and didn’t. I am making it a “do what works for you” situation. I did both initially. We would do body weight pull ups first and then do pull downs later in the workout. I now use only pull downs because I don’t need to do pull ups and my lats are fried and grow from what I am doing now. To me, pull ups would be overkill at this point.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lat pulldowns done with a hold at the bottom to feel that contraction are the reason my lats started really sticking out. /quote]
Thibs stated that pulls might be more beneficial with a contraction that’s held for a second or two. Makes sense to me. We carry and hold stuff with the pulling muscles which is a lot of tut.
This is prolly why higher rep back training has done more for me than heavy ass rows, chins, etc.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Prof X,
Did you ever use straight-arm pulldowns in your routines regularly?[/quote]
No.
i did do pull overs for a while though but not long term. I maybe did those for about a year before I decided that it wasn’t doing all that much.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
At what point development would you recommend holding the contraction? [/quote]
Honestly? When you can move the whole stack with minor cheating. I now use slightly less weight but hold the contraction along with slowing down my reps at times. I do it by feel so there is no specific number of times I do this…but the point is, be strong enough that even with dropping the weight and holding the contraction, you are still using more weight on that last set than most people use at all.
[quote]
I always feel a lot more soreness and feel my lats working more on pull ups than pulldowns. I’ve got a feeling I’m doing something wrong because from what most people say, the pulldowns should target the lats more but in my case I just don’t feel it as much.[/quote]
This is why I hate the internet. Things get missed when you are only focusing on one post over another. I wrote here that I started with pull ups added in at the beginning of the workout. In fact, we used to do some pull ups every time we hit the gym for a while no matter what we were training that day. However, the bigger I got and the stronger, the more I noticed I felt it more and had more control with lat pulldowns.
I will doubtfully go back to pull ups now because…what is the point?
[quote]
For a gauge on my level of strength, I take a medium to wide overhand grip and do about 200 lbs on the machine bringing the bar to my collarbone. For pullups I take a medium to wide grip for as many sets as it takes to get to 20 reps (3-5 sets) at a bodyweight of 225. Pullups are done to a dead hang.[/quote]
That sounds fine.[/quote]
Thanks, I’ve still got 3 or 4 more plates till I’m doing the entire stack. Progress on this lift has been very, very slow compared to any horizontal type of row. It’s gotten to the point where I’m deciding whether to ditch it for something else. I usually do the pulldowns 1st on back day and pullups at the end of the workout but just haven’t been seeing the benefit that most others are from the pulldowns so that’s why I’m questioning if I might be making a stupid mistake somewhere.
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
[quote]conorh wrote:
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
If you have trouble with chins or dips just buy an Iron Woody band to assist you. Like benching or squatting, you can have more assistance at the bottom and less and less as you become more mechanically advantageous.
Chin/dip assistance machines are flawed because they don’t offer this ^^^^^. That’s also why most people who use them clank the weight at the top of the movement. Aslo, chin/dips are $1,500+ where a band can be $15+. Simple decision.[/quote]
I’ve found the top to be the hardest part of the pullup for everyone I’ve ever seen do them. Using a reverse band setup doesn’t match the strength curve.
Further, I’ve never found any kind of assistance to be that useful in the pullup, whether it be that gravitron type assisted machine or bands. I’ve found cheating the concentric and doing a few eccentric pullups to be the only worthwhile drill other than general strength training for people who can’t do a single pullup. Honestly, just getting your general body strength up and losing weight if you’re a fat fuck are enough to get most males to do a few legit pullups. [/quote]
Doesn’t match the strength curve? Well, all these people you speak of must not be the same species as the people I sell to. They buy a big band, come back and buy smaller and smaller ones until they can do chins so it works in Ohio.
Also, the top of the movement is the easiest. That’s why weaker individuals do don’t dead hang chins. Are you feeling ok?[/quote]
I know people have had success with the bands but I personally have not. My strength curve comment is something of a semantic difference, because clearly they help you do pullups. They just don’t match the strength curve, instead they help you slingshot through the weakest portion, which I contend is the top.
I know I can do a lot more half range pullups if I do only the bottom half than I can the top. I’ve also never seen anyone (who could do a non-pathetic number of pullups) fail on a max pullup test by just getting stapled at the bottom. They can always come a little ways back up. It also makes sense to me that as you close the elbow joint you shorten and disadvantage your biceps and most people have terrible back strength. This is also why people who have stronger backs/pulling strength can pull much higher than weaker people.
[quote]conorh wrote:
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
[quote]conorh wrote:
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
If you have trouble with chins or dips just buy an Iron Woody band to assist you. Like benching or squatting, you can have more assistance at the bottom and less and less as you become more mechanically advantageous.
Chin/dip assistance machines are flawed because they don’t offer this ^^^^^. That’s also why most people who use them clank the weight at the top of the movement. Aslo, chin/dips are $1,500+ where a band can be $15+. Simple decision.[/quote]
I’ve found the top to be the hardest part of the pullup for everyone I’ve ever seen do them. Using a reverse band setup doesn’t match the strength curve.
Further, I’ve never found any kind of assistance to be that useful in the pullup, whether it be that gravitron type assisted machine or bands. I’ve found cheating the concentric and doing a few eccentric pullups to be the only worthwhile drill other than general strength training for people who can’t do a single pullup. Honestly, just getting your general body strength up and losing weight if you’re a fat fuck are enough to get most males to do a few legit pullups. [/quote]
Doesn’t match the strength curve? Well, all these people you speak of must not be the same species as the people I sell to. They buy a big band, come back and buy smaller and smaller ones until they can do chins so it works in Ohio.
Also, the top of the movement is the easiest. That’s why weaker individuals do don’t dead hang chins. Are you feeling ok?[/quote]
I know people have had success with the bands but I personally have not. My strength curve comment is something of a semantic difference, because clearly they help you do pullups. They just don’t match the strength curve, instead they help you slingshot through the weakest portion, which I contend is the top.
I know I can do a lot more half range pullups if I do only the bottom half than I can the top. I’ve also never seen anyone (who could do a non-pathetic number of pullups) fail on a max pullup test by just getting stapled at the bottom. They can always come a little ways back up. It also makes sense to me that as you close the elbow joint you shorten and disadvantage your biceps and most people have terrible back strength. This is also why people who have stronger backs/pulling strength can pull much higher than weaker people.
[/quote]
This is a good point. So, if you were to use a band you would actually attach it to the floor and add resistance as you elevated?
I think the very bottom and very top of the chin up are the hardest parts. The middle is the easiest and I guess that’s why a lot of lifters use that partial rep motion.
I have actually stopped using a dip belt for weighted chins/pullups. I now attach a light/med band to a heavy enough DB and it provides constant resistance (as does a dip belt) but is much smoother than having plates hang from you.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I have actually stopped using a dip belt for weighted chins/pullups. I now attach a light/med band to a heavy enough DB and it provides constant resistance (as does a dip belt) but is much smoother than having plates hang from you.[/quote]
How do you attach the band to yourself? I’d prolly still wear the belt and attach the band to it.
Just a small comment out of the blue from me… I really do think pull-ups are harder than dips in every way. Let’s say I did a 5 RM of dips, and a 5 RM of pull-ups. For some reason those pull-ups just seem harder… I guess harder isn’t the right word, they are just gayer, or annoying-er.
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I have actually stopped using a dip belt for weighted chins/pullups. I now attach a light/med band to a heavy enough DB and it provides constant resistance (as does a dip belt) but is much smoother than having plates hang from you.[/quote]
How do you attach the band to yourself? I’d prolly still wear the belt and attach the band to it.[/quote]
I just attach it to my regular weightlifting belt
I love weighted chins.
I used to enjoy doing weighted chins, but for me, doing pullups like I do pulldowns has worked better for me. Chest-To-Bar pullups give me a great back pump, and although I use significantly less weight and more times than not do BW, I feel that I get much more out of them than chin to bar or other forms.
I am quite new to body building type methods. I did some metal bending where the lat contraction is held over time to get the bend going. I have tried straight arm pull downs (simply flexing the lats as hard as possible to move the weight very slowly. It seems to work without injuring hands too lol.
I have tried flexing the lats very hard without any resistance (would this be enought stimulus for growth alone.) My lats are fairly strong. I can 100kg x 10 on the chest supported row.
I could around do 220 + a fair amount of weight. And a lot on that Hammersmith pulldown machine.
It is an excellent machine.
260kg cheat shrugs etc/ High pulls x 150kg to chest.
Will these contraction methods only work or work best when someonoe is already strong or at
least strong for their beginnings.
I think dips will allow you to progess to much heavier weghts while still focusing on chest, delts and triceps, where when doing heavier pullups, it becomes easier to change your form with swinging, jerking,and partial range of motion which increases your chances of injuring yourself and taking the focus off your lats.
“Why Do Big Guys Do Dips But Not Pull-Ups?”
Completely false statement that doesn’t warrant an answer because it is untrue to begin with. WTF
Some do, some don’t same goes for dips.
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Some do, some don’t same goes for dips.[/quote]
No good, too simple
I have seen as many bodybuilder do chin ups as dips so yeah I don’t think you can make that generalisation.
However I will say that the advantage pulldowns have to chins is that they are less technical. What I mean is that in a chin up you have to maintain your body position and not swing, you have to coordinate your muscles more and it takes more skill. When you do lat pulldowns, you are anchored so you can simply focus on how best to contract the lats and not worrying about other things.