Why America Sucks in Olympic Weightlifting?

[quote]dfreezy wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t you the one who was saying that the USAW is a disgrace to weightlifting in this country? Knowing lifters are cheating and failing to report that cheating isn’t exactly helping the sport in our country either.[/quote]

My gripe with USAW is more about how poorly run it is a an organization, not as a drug testing commission. I just find it embarrassing that instead of coming out and saying that they’ve done a bad job of developing any lifters outside of Hammon, they come out and say that they’re the only “clean” team and that’s why the numbers are low relative to everyone else in the world. Who are they fooling?

[quote]Dr. Manhattan wrote:
I doubt you can safely say that. I wonder how many lifters you talk to, and what part of the country they are in. On the east coast, that is just not the norm whatsoever - and I know most of the better lifters on this side of the country. In fact, the general feeling among athletes over here is fear of getting caught for ANYTHING whatsoever because no one wants to be suspended for a year.[/quote]

Well, there’s always the rumors about East Coast Gold lifters being on something…

I have to say that USAW has seemed to ramp up their drug testing stance to the point that more athletes are thinking twice now. Again, I think this is done all as a front to cover how poor a job they are doing at developing any talented lifters.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Right… so their success is directly attributable to their drug use? Since this is the only difference between the countries training programmes and selection criteria?

But… it’s not the only difference is it? In fact the other differences are pretty substantial, no?[/quote]

I never argued that there weren’t other factors. That doesn’t detract from the fact that it is still a weakening piece of evidence. Its evidence that makes his conclusion less likely.

Moreover, other people claimed that this country’s lifters were on drugs - don’t you feel that that requires more proof than just a statement?

[quote]cheeta wrote:
HBergeron wrote:
I’ve heard that a big problem is that American weightlifters pretty much have to be clean all year, because of random drug testing. In many other countries, they just have to be clean in time for major competitions.

Not sure if this explains it all, but I think some big US weightlifting coaches have made that claim.

yeah your weightlifters are clean alright (rofl)
[/quote]

One of the top olympic lifters in the country went to my college. I spoke to their coach and he told me about the massive volume he witnessed some lifters from other countries using in their workouts. He did not come right out and say it, but it was implied that his lifters could not handle it, largely due to their lack of “assistance.” Now before any one starts talking about building up a workload and how his lifters dont have it, this person was already well ranked in the U.S. and was completely natural.

On the other hand didn’t one of the olympic weightlifting teams recently have almost every person fail their drug test? I dont remember who it was, but it was not the U.S.
I dont deny that some of our lifters use something, but there is no way lifters from other countries are tested as frequently, making it a somewhat uneven playing field.

[quote]Dominator wrote:
Well, there’s always the rumors about East Coast Gold lifters being on something…

I have to say that USAW has seemed to ramp up their drug testing stance to the point that more athletes are thinking twice now. Again, I think this is done all as a front to cover how poor a job they are doing at developing any talented lifters.

[/quote]

That’s funny. I’m on East Coast Gold. When I say I know most of the lifters on this coast, I am actually referring to that fact. Maybe I’m on them? Or some of the lifters I coach? Or some of the lifters I work out with? Maybe my coach, who is the head coach of the team, is handing them out? Would you like to spread any other stories, or have I covered just about everything you could come up with?

Before you, or anyone, goes accusing athletes of doing something as illegitimate as using steroids, you should really have some solid evidence. Its an insult and does the sport absolutely no good whatsoever. Another reason why this sport is not doing well in this country is because of so many petty squabblers who would rather pull others in the sport down instead of coming together to try to make it better.

And, by the way, USAW is ramping up testing? That’s the organization who does it? Damn… and here I gave my urine to USADA. No wonder all those athletes who come off steroids for big meets are not getting caught - they are sending all their out of cycle testing to a mysterious organization that probably isn’t even checking things.

This is a giant nature vs. nurture cluster fuck of a discussion.

I think both sides of the argument have very good points. . .

Everyone can agree that

-Athletes around the world use ‘assistance’
-Athletes around the world train hard
-Certain countries have specific sports they pride themselves in, and, thus, they tend to throw their young people into said sports for the sake of continued tradition and positive worldwide recognition
-Living in a country that ‘leans’ toward a particular sport may increase the hours spent training and:
–Improve the quality of coaching
–Improve the consistency of training through more readily available training facilities
–Improve the motivation of talented individuals through more country-specific recognition*

For example, VERY few Americans know the name of even one top olympic lifter from America (or even abroad), whereas many European countries’ Oly lifters are essentially household names in their respective countries. This could, possibly, lead to more motivation for the recognized athletes. POSSIBLY****

I am only familiar with America’s Olympic anti-doping procedures, and I can say that they are quite thorough- though they are by no means perfect!

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Right… so their success is directly attributable to their drug use? Since this is the only difference between the countries training programmes and selection criteria?

But… it’s not the only difference is it? In fact the other differences are pretty substantial, no?[/quote]

I don’t think anyone argued that China’s success was primarily due to drug use. All the factors already mentioned are make an obvious difference. With regards to doping, its nearly impossible to prove you aren’t using, anyone on top will always be scrutinized. It also doesn’t help China’s defense that a study published earlier this year which noted Asians are genetically predisposed to passing current doping tests. [Note: I’m not making any accusations]

Anyways, I think the point being made earlier was that given the US’ poor performance, they are less likely to be doping (or doping to a lesser degree) than a country who is significantly better. Of course it is also possible that US lifters just aren’t nearly as proficient on the gear :smiley:

I could be way off, that’s just how I interpreted the previous quoted statements.

[quote]Flow wrote:
This is a giant nature vs. nurture cluster fuck of a discussion.

I think both sides of the argument have very good points. . .

Everyone can agree that

-Athletes around the world use ‘assistance’
-Athletes around the world train hard
-Certain countries have specific sports they pride themselves in, and, thus, they tend to throw their young people into said sports for the sake of continued tradition and positive worldwide recognition
-Living in a country that ‘leans’ toward a particular sport may increase the hours spent training and:
–Improve the quality of coaching
–Improve the consistency of training through more readily available training facilities
–Improve the motivation of talented individuals through more country-specific recognition*

For example, VERY few Americans know the name of even one top olympic lifter from America (or even abroad), whereas many European countries’ Oly lifters are essentially household names in their respective countries. This could, possibly, lead to more motivation for the recognized athletes. POSSIBLY****

I am only familiar with America’s Olympic anti-doping procedures, and I can say that they are quite thorough- though they are by no means perfect![/quote]

I can agree with all of that.

All this assume China is innocent of drug use is just silly. Every top weightlifting country uses drugs, and yes the chinese get caught just do some research. They have even raided developmental facilities for young weightlifters in China and found steroids.

Long QingQuan won the Olympics this summer at the age of 17. He has clean and jerked over triple bodyweight in training and cleaned 164 @ 56 like a toy in Beijing. This is 4 kilos under the world record by mutlu, who is a confirmed doper. You really don’t think chinese young athletes are not on drugs and they are just genetically superior to everyone?

Go translate a Russian forum for weightlifting. There are always drug sections and they have 15 year olds asking for advice on cycles for weightlifting.

Evgeny Pisarev from Russia got busted at 17 for drugs. 2 year suspension now back @ 19 and won the junior worlds. i’m sure he spent that time off training naturally.

Just come to terms with it, every country uses. You think Greece and Bulgaria are the only ones systemically doping? No, they are the only ones that got caught. They aren’t even superpowers anymore and you think the countries beating them are clean? Thats not how it works in weightlifting. Professional weightlifters on drugs always beat professionals off drugs which is why every professional is on. If it is your job to win championships and you know other athletes use it would be stupid not to use.

Its not just take drugs for a year and be an elite athlete either. These guys are on drugs for years and they start very young. They also train harder than any American could imagine. Naim trained 12 hours a day as a teenager and was in so much pain he couldn’t even fall asleep some nights. His coaches had to carry him to bed after training until midnight. No American would ever go through that pain for weightlifting and very few would go through it for success in any other sport.

shatoy.borda.ru russian weightlifting forum- they have a thread providing dosing for young athletes using dianabol to keep it “safe”. i know the age of one of the kids posting in there was 15 at the time.

the usa sucks because lifters don’t commit to using, there is no support system or reward system for big time athletes and they therefore need to get a job after college. there is also a ton of testing and they can’t use like other countries can. arguing that there are no good athletes lifting for the usa is just stupid. yea the numbers are nowhere near the same as china, but bulgaria had about 4k lifters in their prime. georgia has far less and they still outproduce us. they can’t even train in georgia because they don’t have facilities adequate enough so they worked out a deal with poland… lance frye isn’t a good enough athlete? put him in another country as a kid where weightlifting is important and he would be a champion. what about kendrick farris? and since when do chinese exceed at all speed strength sports like it is a genetic predisposition? they admit to only being good at weightlifting because they are smarter and train harder. this was stated in an article this summer before the games by a head chinese weightlifting official.

weightlifting is “fun” in the usa. its not life. in russia, china and other countries, it is life for these athletes which is why a doping test doesnt scare them. American weightlifters don’t lift to get out of poverty like the chinese do. do you think the chinese are afraid of taking drugs their coaches give them if their job is on the line? hell no. but then again, like i said before, these athletes know a form of commitment that barely any american will ever know because of societal differences.

drugs aren’t the only reason. americans can dope all they want they still won’t catch China. however, ignoring the fact that drugs play a major role in the development of elite weightlifters, especially after all the positives recently, is just being naive.

Wow. Good post.

[quote]Dr. Manhattan wrote:
Before you, or anyone, goes accusing athletes of doing something as illegitimate as using steroids, you should really have some solid evidence. Its an insult and does the sport absolutely no good whatsoever. Another reason why this sport is not doing well in this country is because of so many petty squabblers who would rather pull others in the sport down instead of coming together to try to make it better.
[/quote]

I’ve got all the evidence I ever need, and just because I don’t supply a syringe ala Brian Macnamee for evidence doesn’t mean it isn’t going on. I’m not loosing any sleep that you want hard evidence of drug use…it’s there, you either recognize it or choose to ignore it.

[quote]BAdWolf wrote:
I know there are some strong as hell powerlifters, but why the dominance in the Olympic weightlifting is in europe/asia? even tought if any lifter can handle more than 200kg in america is good.

I want you guys opinion thanks.[/quote]

All the wicked athletic/strong guys pursue sports that have a better pay cheque. Think NFL, NBA, MLB and the like. In Asia/Europe (particularly china and eastern bloc countries) the athletes are state sponsered and picked from very young ages. The programs for these athletes are also very well developed.

Let’s be honest here. At the highest echelons of olympic weightlifting, the majority, if not all, of athletes are on banned substances.

And what about the “other” countrys on the whole “america”. I mean, the actual pan-am champion on the +110kg is not even an american(us). it’s a chilean guy called Cristian Escalante.

The UK is equally terrible at weightlifting, we even entered a injured Michaela Breeze into beijing because she had the best chance of medaling and watching her lifts was just painful. And the fact strength and conditioning coaches here have just discovered the wonder of olympic lifting you’d think we’d start putting out better athletes.

[quote]Wayland wrote:
The UK is equally terrible at weightlifting, we even entered a injured Michaela Breeze into beijing because she had the best chance of medaling and watching her lifts was just painful. And the fact strength and conditioning coaches here have just discovered the wonder of olympic lifting you’d think we’d start putting out better athletes.[/quote]

Until they start funding it properly we’re going to continue to be shit. The best lifters in the UK over the last 5 or 6 years have packed it in because they’re expected to train like full time athletes on £500 a month. There was a time when we actually produced some very decent lifters who could compete with the A session guys. In Andrew Davis (now Michaela Breeze’s coach) we had the only guy to ever outsnatch Stefan Botev in competition (although he did get popped for clen a few years later…). Now what little weightliting funding there is is being swallowed up by the bureaucrats at World Class Weightlifting (what a joke!) whilst the actual lifters can’t even afford to go to the Euros so they can finish in the bottom half of the C session.

[quote]ninearms wrote:
Until they start funding it properly we’re going to continue to be shit. The best lifters in the UK over the last 5 or 6 years have packed it in because they’re expected to train like full time athletes on £500 a month. There was a time when we actually produced some very decent lifters who could compete with the A session guys. In Andrew Davis (now Michaela Breeze’s coach) we had the only guy to ever outsnatch Stefan Botev in competition (although he did get popped for clen a few years later…). Now what little weightliting funding there is is being swallowed up by the bureaucrats at World Class Weightlifting (what a joke!) whilst the actual lifters can’t even afford to go to the Euros so they can finish in the bottom half of the C session.[/quote]

Dead on, i saw WCWL looking for a new chair recently, it seems british performance sport as a whole is overly bureaucratic. When i go to conferences i see places taken up by over paid desk jockies and sports development officers, who are more concerned about rpoducing good budgets, than good athletes.

[quote]Wayland wrote:
ninearms wrote:
Until they start funding it properly we’re going to continue to be shit. The best lifters in the UK over the last 5 or 6 years have packed it in because they’re expected to train like full time athletes on £500 a month. There was a time when we actually produced some very decent lifters who could compete with the A session guys. In Andrew Davis (now Michaela Breeze’s coach) we had the only guy to ever outsnatch Stefan Botev in competition (although he did get popped for clen a few years later…). Now what little weightliting funding there is is being swallowed up by the bureaucrats at World Class Weightlifting (what a joke!) whilst the actual lifters can’t even afford to go to the Euros so they can finish in the bottom half of the C session.

Dead on, i saw WCWL looking for a new chair recently, it seems british performance sport as a whole is overly bureaucratic. When i go to conferences i see places taken up by over paid desk jockies and sports development officers, who are more concerned about rpoducing good budgets, than good athletes.
[/quote]

Yup. And the weightlifting experience required to fill that post? A BIG FAT ZERO. UK Sport’s current budget allocation to weightlifting for 2012? A BIG FAT ZERO.

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i also think its funny how China will abduct kids into 24/7 training facilities and still not even be that impressive. [/quote]

Not everyone can be good at a sport, Chinese sports governing bodies would be happy if they got 1 out of 1000 kids who was good enough to compete internationally.

[quote]aaron_lohan wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i also think its funny how China will abduct kids into 24/7 training facilities and still not even be that impressive.

Not everyone can be good at a sport, Chinese sports governing bodies would be happy if they got 1 out of 1000 kids who was good enough to compete internationally.[/quote]

Consider the fact that they draw from a more dense population, and the differences in diet and the way they live, much more conservatively.

I’m also sitting next to a chinese exchange student in class right now and he states its easier to get into weightlifting because it has the same amount of exposure of baseball or hockey here in the U.S. In my class I’m one of 3 to have competed in an actual weightlifting event.

He states that at his old school in China almost every guy at some point in time had done olympic weightlifting, none however were overtly impressive. So i guess exposure is part of it as well

[quote]Dominator wrote:
I’ve got all the evidence I ever need, and just because I don’t supply a syringe ala Brian Macnamee for evidence doesn’t mean it isn’t going on. I’m not loosing any sleep that you want hard evidence of drug use…it’s there, you either recognize it or choose to ignore it.
[/quote]

Or it isn’t there, and you are just mouthing off on some forum because you can. Honestly, the sport needs less people like you hanging around it, talking about things you don’t know about.

If you really think there’s evidence that East Coast Gold lifters are on drugs, I can certainly put you in touch with the head coach and you can make your concerns known to him. Or just stop making crap up.