Who'da thunk it?

Training Bodybuilding
81

Morg the low carbohydrate high fat diet decreasing insulin sensitivity has been discussed here in the past, also berardi mentioned it in a couple of his articles too.

here is one

"RW ? Does insulin sensitivity vary or change?

JB ? Insulin sensitivity is unique to each individual but the cool thing is that it can be manipulated by exercise, diet, and supplementation. And that’s what I do with my clients to dramatically change their body composition.

Both aerobic and resistance training greatly increase insulin sensitivity through some different and some similar mechanisms. In addition, supplements like omega 3 fatty acids, fish oils, alpha-lipoic acid, and chromium can increase insulin sensitivity. Finally, moderate carbohydrate diets that are rich in fiber can increase insulin sensitivity.

On the flip side, the low-carb, high-fat diets that have become popular can decrease insulin sensitivity. That’s why none of my trainees go on no-carb diets, unless they’re dieting down for a show and then they’ll do occasional no carb diets every few months for a maximum of 3 weeks at a time"

and this from massive eating…

“On the flip side, stimulants like ephedrine and caffeine can decrease insulin sensitivity due to their effects on metabolism. Furthermore, the low carb, high-fat diets that have become popular can also lead to decreased insulin sensitivity. That’s why my trainees don’t take stimulants or go on no-carb diets (unless they’re dieting down for a show and then they’ll do occasional no-carb diets every few months for a maximum of three weeks at a time).”

Ummm now for some studies

“The available data support the idea that consumption of diets high in total carbohydrate does not adversely affect insulin sensitivity compared with high fat diets.”

this refers to what cyco was saying about glycemic index

Now I realize that some of the studies are on rats, but there are other human studies i promise, this was the best i could do with the time that i have.

82

he also thinks these are equal:

  1. cheese whiz and sausages

  2. white bread and rice krispies

sausages are no better than white bread or rice krispies?

that makes so little sense it’s not funny. he thinks eating high GI carbs alone is equal to eating fat or fat with protein. the ignorance in saying something like this is amazing.

83

Neil, i call you names because you are a stupid person (but tahts assuming you have intellegence, because a stupid person is someone who has a brain but refuses to use it)

I have peer reviewed references to back up my assertations, but you seem to have nothing.

lack of education is a dangerous thing for people like you.

84

what am i going to do with abstracts? i’ve seen abstracts that are wrong, so how can this be of any true use?

cyco, you have peer reviewed references for your statement that white bread is equal to sausage in nutrition value? i still can’t believe you said that.

85

would you recommend a diabetic going on a high carb diet? i mean, since a high carb diet increases insulin sensitivity, this would be a good idea, right?

86

who are these studies sponsored by, by the way?

perhaps i should listen to all this “science” and eat pasta, breads, and muffins instead of eating steak and leafy vegetables. i mean, this science is incontrovertible.

87

The furhter you go, the stupider you look
I didnt say they were equally good, I said they were equally BAD

A higher carb diet for diabetes, well just about every single diabetes foundation in the world recommends a higher carbohydrate intake.
But you wouldnt understand that would you. Most type 1s have good sensitivity, just do not have the insulin. Most type 2s have too much fat to have good sensitivity, which is why they are placed on drugs to increase glucose disposal.

And you realise that the ‘science’ tat shows to eat carbs isnt exactly saying eat unlimited amounts of it. They are saying eat ADEQUATE amounts. I mean, a serving of carbs is 15g, so for somebody at hte massive end, that would be 165g carbs plus that from fruits, veges and milk, which is about another 50-75 depending on the food source. So, somebody who has a high energy intake is to take in ~250g carbs… americans take in somewhat over 300 on average. (on the low end, your looking at ~150g).
Americans eat too much of everything.

Focussing on carbs as the be all and end all of disease is as moronic as focussing everything on dietary fat.

and in terms of abstracts being wrong. maybe you should learn how to critically analyse things, as abstracts are crap, and you should read the full papers to get better ideas (and who the sponsers of the studies are). But that would require a knowledge of study design, statistics and laboratory science, wouldnt it.

88

“you call me stupid yet you think eating more carbs will increase insulin sensitivity, but eating less will decrease it.” yes that is because that is what the current theories are.

anyway

Seems to me you are misinterpretting much of what he says for the sake of an argument…

You keep taking the argument back to a practical standpoint, cyco is not saying that low carb diets do not work he even stated, “low carb usually allowes better weight loss in free living subjects, just becuase it is anoretic.”

Look at what else cyco has said…

“Any diet is workable”

“low carb usually allowes better weight loss in free living subjects, just becuase it is anoretic.”

“People are stupid. Atkins ‘concept’ would not work for public recommendations, becuase the public on average are too stupid to do it correctly.”

two me it seems like he is saying three things…

1)The current scientific literature shows that if the diets are calorie and protein controlled there is little difference in outcome regardless of whether carbohydrate or fat is high. ie he wasnt saying that atkins dont work at all, was just saying the mechanisms are different to what you may think they are.

2)Low carb diets assist with weightloss if done correctly… so can medium carb diets, it may be easier to eat less calories on a low carb diet however… the problem is that most people seem to misinterpret alot of data (are stupid) and use Atkins type diets to pig out.

  1. Morg has a brain but is refusing to use it. This is probably his most controversial statement as there is no scientific literature on you (that i could find anyway). I did a pubmed search and found nothing. But rather then arguing and laughing at people and treating them as though they are stupid perhaps if you tried to discuss things people would be much more inclined to discuss and help, making it a better learning environment for everyone.

Cyco if i have misinterpreted your statements just tell me and i will shut the fuck up :slight_smile:

89

“I didnt say they were equally good, I said they were equally BAD”

oh, and you think this makes it correct?

90

chris, hahaha. you sure you couldn’t find any studies? i remember someone doing some on me when i was young.

anyway, if it comes down to the “people are too stupid to follow it correctly” thing, then i go back to my original question:

which is better?

cheese wiz and pepperoni

or

donuts and poptarts

both would be cases of dumb people misinterpreting the diets.

he says that people are too dumb to follow atkins, but obviously they’re too dumb to follow the current recommendations.

even if it was white bread and poptarts, those are still worse choices than pepperoni (the worst part being additives and processing) and cheeze whiz (bad fats, additives).

91

Tell me Morg,
what health effects would cheese wiz and pepperoni have on someone?

What effect would donut and poptarts have?

Chris, thats about it, but morg is either refusing to use his brain, or is a young, inexperienced, 18year old, who thinks that because he has read one persons interpretation of some research, that its the only way it can be.

92

and also morg, how does poptarts and donuts fit into the food pyramid/USDA nutritional recommendations?

93

Cyco, I thought the idea of a higher carb diet was dead and buried a long time ago!

94

I kinda have a hard time with the idea that the USDA wouldn’t recommend something that would be good for it’s citizens if it’s too hard to follow.

(BTW, I’m not suggesting that the USDA should make the Atkins Diet the recommended diet!)

I believe in the next decade, you will see the USDA start recommending a more balanced diet, with lower carb amounts and higher protein and fat amounts than what they currently recommend.

95

“and also morg, how does poptarts and donuts fit into the food pyramid/USDA nutritional recommendations?”

apparently the whole thing was about how americans are too dumb to follow atkins. they don’t follow the current recommendations. they think poptarts and donuts fit in there because they’re in the “grain” group. that’s how they fit into the discussion.

i’m sorry, but if you think donuts and poptarts are equal to pepperoni and cheeze wiz, then you’ve got problems. i suppose eating high GI foods is the same as eating something with some nitrates and nitrites in it. do donuts and poptarts increase insulin sensitivity, too? shakes head

96

and if you agree with chris’s explanation, then the whole discussion is over misinterpretation of diets. therefore i give examples of misinterpretations of both diets and ask which is worse.

the idea here is that misinterpretations of the atkins diet is healthier than misinterpretations of current nutrional recommendations.

however, you seem to think white bread has the same nutritional value as sausage. the ignorance of that statement boggles the mind.

97

Neil you have shown yourself over and over again to be an idiot. The USDA do NOT recommend donuts and poptarts as grain intake. This comment just tops off the stupidity that you display. check out the nutrition guidelines for americans.
You also assuming because the average american is eating grain products in abundance, that it is what the USDA recommend. It would make sense for you to actual do some research on how the USDA comes to their recommendations, and also the IOM come to their recommendations.

And M&M, why should high carbohydrate diets be dead and buried? becuase certain groups think that they are the cause of all that is evil within the universe?
There can be different interpretations of all diets, but they may not be particularly bad.

and Jeff its not a matter of it being too hard for the public to follow (well for some of them it is. But we can see what happens from recomemndations. You recommendd high carb/lower fat (not as low as most seem to think) and people eat the 16tons of sugary , crud infested crap that they are at the moment. Is eating one bagel bad? not in isolation , but when you combine that with everything else americans eat and drink in a day you get the current situation.
Now if you recommend that they eat higher protein/higher fat moderate carbs, do you really think that americans will eat sensibly? nah fuck that, they would be like neil and put their block of butter on their peas…while eating 16lb of pork ribs with a side of lard. Even on a high carb diet americans get an appalling low amount of fibre, how do you think they would get on with the recommendations.

98

“Neil you have shown yourself over and over again to be an idiot. The USDA do NOT recommend donuts and poptarts as grain intake. This comment just tops off the stupidity that you display. check out the nutrition guidelines for americans.
You also assuming because the average american is eating grain products in abundance, that it is what the USDA recommend. It would make sense for you to actual do some research on how the USDA comes to their recommendations, and also the IOM come to their recommendations.”

I see you’ve resorted to completely making things up because you don’t have a leg to stand on.

good job. i think this thread is over and ot’s obvious you’ve been proven wrong.

99

i find it rather amusing that cycomiko is doing all this name calling, but he’s doing things like avoiding subjects and making things up lol.

100

right off the USDA website, they recommend GRAINS at the base, 6-11 servings per day.

that’s more than twice any other group. seriously, what the hell are you talking about? are you saying that the USDA doesn’t recommend grains as the base of a diet?

“bread, cereal, rice, and pasta group 6-11 servings”

http://www.usda.gov/cnpp/DietGd.pdf