[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
I still don’t understand why this is even an argument. Read the stuff by the Westside guys over at Elite. What do they constantly hammer on? Supplemental posterior chain exercises like like the reverse hyper, GHR and plate drag that are essentially isolation exercises for the glutes or hamstrings. Do they say, “To get big powerful legs, all you need to do are squats and deadlifts?” No, they say, “Do your SQ/DL ME and DE days, then add in accessory lifts that the posterior chain or specific parts of it.”
Why are people so against isolation? If you want to get big biceps, why WOULDN’T you do curls? It’s not like they are going to trash your CNS for days, leaving you unable to work the compound lifts. I don’t get why anybody, except maybe a competitive athlete who is in-season and truly does have to eliminate as much training stress as possible, would NOT do curls.[/quote]
I swear it is like some kind of anti-bodybuilding movement and it truly doesn’t make much sense outside of competitive sports, and then only certain instances.
listen to jtrinsey and prof x, they know what they’re talking about.
i made the dumbass decision to join the anti-isolation group awhile back <not that i didn’t do any isolation, but i definitely neglected bicep isolation work> and man do i regret that.
great biceps need direct isolation work, period.
can arms grow with compound pulling motions? sure. will they be as good without isolation work as they would would be WITH isolation work? hellz no.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I swear it is like some kind of anti-bodybuilding movement and it truly doesn’t make much sense outside of competitive sports, and then only certain instances.
[quote]MarcAnthony wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I swear it is like some kind of anti-bodybuilding movement and it truly doesn’t make much sense outside of competitive sports, and then only certain instances.
I also think some forget that the way some trainers make their mark is to come up with some “new” concept they can associate their name with. I wonder if this is realized in between the hero worship? “Anti-bodybuilding”? Because “bodybuilding” is bad? I guess this is why everyone is now telling every single newbie who logs on to ONLY do core movements.
What a bunch of smartasses on this thread, give Aero a break guyz!
First off, you can’t change the shape or attachment point of a muscle by working it with different exercises any more than you can develop your inner/outer/upper/under/whatever the hell you think you need pecs. Go to a really good surgeon if you want that and good luck recovering.
Secondly, I don’t recall ever frying my legs on a few sets of overhead presses but many a times do I recall having sore biceps after a heavy back day with rowing and pulldown exercises. And while I don’t personally agree with the viewpoint that direct work isn’t necessary, it’s primarily becuz I - like most of you - have a preconceived mental hangup that my biceps won’t grow/get stronger if I don’t. And I’m too much of a pussy to risk trying it for a while and seeing what happens. I mean god forbid I don’t make progress on my biceps for a couple months…especially since us weightlifters/bodybuilders effortlessly and continuously make progress just by looking at a dumbell
[quote]Kailash wrote:
Massif wrote:
I have 18.5 inch arms and haven’t included direct arm work in my routines. That said, my arms are solid, but lack shape, especially around the elbow joint.
Could that be genetic? Many people suffer the “two finger gap” due to the attachment point of muscle to tendon - myself included.
And what’s everyone’s opinion on dips and chin-ups for arms? Compound exercises, yet both well known mass builders.[/quote]
It has to do with balance and necessity IMO. What I mean is if you need to pack on size, then compound exercises are key, having said that, there is a threshold that will be met by this and you will need to break past this threshold and the need for isolation work will be required. The problem is that some will drop the compound for isolation. In bodybuilding, you need to address your weaknesses and choose the appropriate tool to overcome this weakness.
To neglect one aspect for another is foolish for bodybuilding, again this has been my experience. For a beginner, compound is a great start, and as you become more “accustomed” and advanced in training you will need some isolation work as well, find your balance.
Not training your arms makes about as much sense as not training your chest. It is a muscle group, and if you’re in the gym, your goal should be building muscle.
I see no reason to neglect any muscle group. That said, I do direct arm work, such as curls, etc, but I also row. I know that sometimes the rowing will give me bigger pumps cause I can pull more weight, same with pullups.
I believe getting great arms is a combination of both. Curls for direct stimulation at lower weights, and rowing for overall stimulation using much higher loads.
Hmm…I find the ability to focus on the issue at hand troubling. If one took the time to review the previous posts they might come to realize that the issue at hand is not, nor has it ever been, whether “Not training your arms makes sense”. The question was, and remains, HOW to train the arms for muscle growth. And while I may hold the opinion of “why not”, the question posed was whether isolation exercises are necessary.
[quote]infin|ty wrote:
Not training your arms makes about as much sense as not training your chest. It is a muscle group, and if you’re in the gym, your goal should be building muscle.
I see no reason to neglect any muscle group. That said, I do direct arm work, such as curls, etc, but I also row. I know that sometimes the rowing will give me bigger pumps cause I can pull more weight, same with pullups.
I believe getting great arms is a combination of both. Curls for direct stimulation at lower weights, and rowing for overall stimulation using much higher loads.[/quote]
Ok, first the only isolation exercises I perform are for my grip strength. All other exercises are compound. Do I suggest everyone else follow suit? No. Everyone has different goals and therefore different training priorities.
But, I don’t think one can accurately answer the original question unless we are talking about 2 genetically identical individuals (in other words clones) because genetics plays a huge role in muscle shape, length, and size.
That being said, I for one don’t believe that isolation work is absolutely necessary for optimal size/strength. Speed skaters, hockey players, and sprinters all have huge quads. Soccer players have huge calves. Gymnasts have huge shoulders, upper arms and upper backs.
Speaking of gymnasts, there is a perfect example of people who do absolutely no arm isolation movements and yet have phenomenal arm development.
Well actually one of the muscles that makes up the hamstrings is called the Biceps Femoris, so perhaps the analogy isn’t that far off. The biceps femoris is the muscle of the hamstrings that crosses both the knee and hip joint (much like the long head of the biceps crosses both the elbow and shoulder joint).
This means that both muscles are identical in their joint actions (although of course they act on different joints). The biceps femoris causes knee flexion and hip extention, while the biceps brachii causes elbow flexion and shoulder flexion (okay, so not perfectly identical, but you get the point).
So, therefore an exercise such as a handstand pushup would be an almost identical movement to a squat (in fact it’s often described in comparison with a squat to help people get how it’s supposed to be performed). Of course, to really be identical the palms would have to be supinated, which can be done, but makes the movement more difficult.
Also, as far as taking the muscle through it’s full range of motion; what about chin ups on rings? That would allow for supination. Of course, neither curls nor chins cause the biceps to perform shoulder flexion, so neither truly involves all of the joint actions which the bicep brachii is responsible for.
I dunno who started this whole “avoid direct arm work” thing - but I DO know that Stuart McRobert raves about it in “BRAWN”. He chats all the usual shit that’s come around again about ONLY doing squats, deadlifts, deadlift variations, military pressing etc.
Now I’m not saying that this is wrong, I myself got bigger arms by following this mantra for about 6months - but as someone said a few pages back - they lacked shape and definitely needed some direct attention.
Generally any bodybuilder who leaves out isolation work will end up looking very much “unfinished”. This isn’t to say that isolations are more important than compounds, but they certainly need to be included.
