Who Can Beat Brock?

Training
81

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Maybe, but his time in the WWE shouldn’t be much of an indication. IDK, people point out that he was rocked by Randy and by Frank but they must have a differnt definition of being rocked. Seemed like it didn’t effect him much. I really though Frank looked pretty quick and sharp. That flying knee was sweet. He just seemed to get a little too anxious. I think we will see Lesnar’s chin tested, but someone is going to have to really work on avoiding the TD while landing opportune shots. If you are willing to get taken down for that one big shot, you are going to get you ass kicked like frank did.

Brock himself was quoted as “seeing tweety birds” after both Randy’s punch and Frank’s Knee.

[/quote]

He also said for like a second or half a second. Sounds like what happens when you take a punch.

82

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
You guys are seriously doubting that Fedor can beat Brock? -_-[/quote]

Maybe not.

I AM SERIOUSLY doubting that Carwin is even REMOTELY close to as strong as Brock.

83

[quote]John S. wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Maybe, but his time in the WWE shouldn’t be much of an indication. IDK, people point out that he was rocked by Randy and by Frank but they must have a differnt definition of being rocked. Seemed like it didn’t effect him much. I really though Frank looked pretty quick and sharp. That flying knee was sweet. He just seemed to get a little too anxious. I think we will see Lesnar’s chin tested, but someone is going to have to really work on avoiding the TD while landing opportune shots. If you are willing to get taken down for that one big shot, you are going to get you ass kicked like frank did.

Brock himself was quoted as “seeing tweety birds” after both Randy’s punch and Frank’s Knee.

He also said for like a second or half a second. Sounds like what happens when you take a punch.[/quote]

Agreed. We also havent seen Brock NOT take a guy down from that point on. There is no way to say that as true as him getting rocked/put away would be, that a guy tags him,he stops for half a second, the guy comes in swinging and Brock just fucking levels him with that straight right, game over, might be as well. BROCK SMASH!!!

84

Supposedly he benches 650 he is an inch taller then Brock and looks to be leaner.

85

anyone who said;

noguiera - not a hope, the guy is well past it and has looked half dead in his last 3 to 4 fights and somehow pulled submissions out of the bag in a couple of them, brock would smash his face in and i would hate to see that.

arlovski - mr glass jaw also hasn’t a hope in my opinion

crocop - back in the day when he could juice out of his mind and was aggressive as fuck he defo would’ve taken him, he had takedown defense and could hit like train, nowadays though he doesn’t seem too bothered and lacks all the intensity he used to have.

the best bets to beat him in my eyes are overeem due to his superior striking, carwin due to his punching power and flash knockout capability, and obviously fedor for reasons that don’t need to be mentioned. seeing him against gonzaga would be cool too.

86

I really don’t see why brock needs to learn submissions other than how to defend against them. Lets be honest, Most submission attempts can leave you in a position to get swept. His current method of hitting a guy with a sledgehammer in the face while laying on top of him seems to be pretty effective and it leaves him in a much more dominant position as far as not getting swept. If he couldn’t throw power shots from that position then I’d say yea work on your submissions. But it’s quite clear that he can finish fights from that position.

V

87

[quote]drewh wrote:
Supposedly he benches 650 he is an inch taller then Brock and looks to be leaner. [/quote]

Brock is stronger than Shane, and I would guess it’s not even close. You will see when brock ragdolls him when they fight.

V

88

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I really don’t see why brock needs to learn submissions other than how to defend against them. Lets be honest, Most submission attempts can leave you in a position to get swept. His current method of hitting a guy with a sledgehammer in the face while laying on top of him seems to be pretty effective and it leaves him in a much more dominant position as far as not getting swept. If he couldn’t throw power shots from that position then I’d say yea work on your submissions. But it’s quite clear that he can finish fights from that position.

V[/quote]

It depends on what submissions he gets good at. You’re right that some submissions cause you to sacrifice a dominant position in order to get them. But there are others that do not.

My reasoning for him learning submissions are:

  1. because I think that with his superior size, wrestling ability/positioning, and strength he is going to be in the position to get a submission quite a few times in his career, so why not be able to capitalize on those opportunities?

  2. because it will add another dimension to his game that people will have to worry about

  3. because submissions end fights quickly (it doesn’t matter how hard you head is, if someone is hyperextending your elbow you’re going to say uncle)

I agree that his current “lunchbox” tactics are effective, very effective. But he could have finished Mir in seconds of getting that controlling position with a submission if he knew how. Who knows though, maybe he could have, but chose to instead just pound on Mir for a while to punish him.

Totally agree about learning sub defense as well.

89

I said the same thing the second he entered the UFC.

90

[quote]Vegita wrote:
drewh wrote:
Supposedly he benches 650 he is an inch taller then Brock and looks to be leaner.

Brock is stronger than Shane, and I would guess it’s not even close. You will see when brock ragdolls him when they fight.

V[/quote]

I’d have to agree, at least in terms of mat strength. I’d say they’re probably fairly close in terms of lift numbers though. But I guess we’ll have to see when/if they finally go at it.

91

Wtb Carwin right uppercut as Brock goes for his signature ‘open field tackle’ takedown.

92

UFC’s going to next bring ‘The Undertaker’ over, from WWE. He’ll say that Brock can’t run and hide anymore. The drama will sure bring in the bucks!!

The Undertaker will hit Brock with a glancing blow, kinda like how Brock beat Couture, and The Undertaker will rule UFC. Until his brother Kane comes in…

93

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Exactemundo! I see it breaking down like this. in 5-10 years, the heavyweight division could probably be populated with more guys going in straight from collegiate wrestling, or guys get cut from the NFL(thinking the linebacker position personally) If the sport continues to grow, the monetary incentives would be greater than when the sport began, and as some people have mentioned, that is the real drawback as for talent in the hw division.

If you are 250 pounds and athletic, what do you do after college? Try and play pro football or work in the WWE. That mindset might change in the future, or might not. Time will tell.

Well some of that might be exemplified with upcoming season of TUF. At least we’ll get a peek at the potential for that to happen. [/quote]

Was going to mention that, seems like more of this type of guys are being attracted to MMA.

94

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Maybe, but his time in the WWE shouldn’t be much of an indication. IDK, people point out that he was rocked by Randy and by Frank but they must have a differnt definition of being rocked. Seemed like it didn’t effect him much. I really though Frank looked pretty quick and sharp. That flying knee was sweet. He just seemed to get a little too anxious. I think we will see Lesnar’s chin tested, but someone is going to have to really work on avoiding the TD while landing opportune shots. If you are willing to get taken down for that one big shot, you are going to get you ass kicked like frank did.

Brock himself was quoted as “seeing tweety birds” after both Randy’s punch and Frank’s Knee.
[/quote]

So do I when I push too hard on the shitter. so what? it didn’t even put him out of position.

95

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Exactemundo! I see it breaking down like this. in 5-10 years, the heavyweight division could probably be populated with more guys going in straight from collegiate wrestling, or guys get cut from the NFL(thinking the linebacker position personally) If the sport continues to grow, the monetary incentives would be greater than when the sport began, and as some people have mentioned, that is the real drawback as for talent in the hw division.

If you are 250 pounds and athletic, what do you do after college? Try and play pro football or work in the WWE. That mindset might change in the future, or might not. Time will tell.

Well some of that might be exemplified with upcoming season of TUF. At least we’ll get a peek at the potential for that to happen.

Was going to mention that, seems like more of this type of guys are being attracted to MMA.[/quote]

This is all very good new to me, I mean nothing against fedor or anything, like I said before guy is my fav, but i’m pretty sure there is some genetic freak HW out there who with the right amount of training would school fedor in his prime. I mean Fedor is a 230 lb man, there are legitamate 300Lb freaks out there and some of them are insane athletes. If a few more of them get into MMA, we could see some really really amazing HW fighters out there. I think the division is still very young and very underdeveloped. Another contributor to this is that being a small kid growing up is always a motivator for people to start training in a martial art. A lot of the many many guys from 155-185 were probably not always the big badass fighters. Many probably turned to MA & Fighting as a means to get tougher, big guys probably never needed to learn karate or judo to defend themselves from the bullies, they most likley were the bullies. You don’t need karate for 8 years to give some nerd a swirley.

V

96

Yep, and with the rising popularity of BJJ, thanks in part to the success of organizations like the UFC and WEC, kids of all sizes will start it sooner. When the sport started, NO ONE did BJJ unless you were a Gracie, which I think really stunted the growth of MMA in general.

Now with the growth of reputable BJJ schools around the US, I can legitimately see 5-15 years down the road guys who are 1) Big 2) Know BJJ 3) Can strike all by the time they enter the cage for the first time. You see it in all other classes except HW. The champs now are extremely well rounded, except Brock, who is champion due to his immense, gargantuan so far insurmountable physical superiority to any opponent thus far. When we see a HW champ who is a black belt in BJJ pull rubber guard and submit another blackbelt contender, after they just spent round 1-2 kickboxing while avoiding each others takedowns, then the sport will be at it’s pinnacle.

That may never happen though, except on my xbox 360.

97

[quote]dhickey wrote:
BantamRunner wrote:
Fighters like Lesnar and even Kimbo are why the HW division is so shallow. If dudes with no MMA experience can come in and KTFO ok fighters there’s a problem. Athleticism or not. You don’t see a strong athletic guy dominate in the lower divisions like you are seeing in the HWs.

they are not the reason, they are the symptom. the fact that you put Lesnar in with Kimbo is interesting. Guys that are only big and athletic don’t beat good fighters. Dominant one skill fighters have held the title in every division.

Others have already provide pretty good analysis of why the HW division is a bit more shallow.

Some things to consider:

  1. Lesnar’s Reach is 81 in. He had two inches on Mir. What’s Carwin’s reach? A longer reach alone can be a difference in the UFC. I mean if these guys were really top of the line boxers they wouldn’t be in MMA.

Reach advantages are overcome in plenty of fights. Even with a reach advantage, I think we can all assume Mir would win a striking match with no TDs. Lesnar’s reach serves no advantage if he choses not to stand and strike.

  1. Takedowns. If you come in for a power shot Lesnar will take you down. So, in a stand-up match the only way I think you can beat Lesnar is with a lucky shot (that’s always possible in any match) or on points (jab, jab, back, circle, jab, jab, back, circle)

Yep. TD defense is key. Either by sprawl or staying out of TD range. It appeared to me that Mir was a little too confident in his ground game to employ this stratagy. Big mistake.

  1. Subs. Lesnar has improved dramatically since Mir I. He was a bit too agressive the first go around and got caught. If not for that Mir would have been dominated as he was getting beat up until the tap-out.

Submitting Lesnar should not be plan A. It should be plan B. This may be contrary to what I typed in another thread before this last fight. Quite honestly, I expected his striking to be better and his ground control or sub defense not to have been so good against a really good submission guy. His GnP looked leaps and bounds better.

  1. Style. As Lesnar’s skills improve he may change his style and I think that could be a problem. Right now his “lay and pound” approach works. It’s not very fun and the fans hate it, but it wins. As he learns better standup and maybe even a sub or two he opens himself up for a knockout or reversal on the ground.

I couldn’t believe the boos and chants of “stand them up”. What, he layed there to get control for about 5 seconds before completly bashing Frank’s face? I guess people don’t like GnP anymore. He fucked Mir up on the ground and people will still call it lay and pray or lay and pound. Strange. I find myself more and more anoyed with the fans at live events. Way to quick to boo if the action lags a little.

  1. Concrete Chin. Lesnar got pounded daily in the WWE. Those rings aren’t made of cotton and so he’s been landing on his head for a number of years (explains a lot…:wink: ). Anyone remember his failed shooting star press? Dude has a thick neck and big fat head. Might have another Kazuyuki Fujita cranium on our hands here.

Maybe, but his time in the WWE shouldn’t be much of an indication. IDK, people point out that he was rocked by Randy and by Frank but they must have a differnt definition of being rocked. Seemed like it didn’t effect him much. I really though Frank looked pretty quick and sharp. That flying knee was sweet. He just seemed to get a little too anxious. I think we will see Lesnar’s chin tested, but someone is going to have to really work on avoiding the TD while landing opportune shots. If you are willing to get taken down for that one big shot, you are going to get you ass kicked like frank did.

Oh, and as far as him beating Herring…who has KO’d Herring? Most of his losses are due to decision…dude stays up.
Herring has always been a B level fighter, but always put up a fight. Herring in Pride was a lot of fun to watch. He doesn’t seem to have the same aggression as he once did, nore does he appear to be in the same shape. Hope to see him back to form and putting on good fights, but he won’t be fighting for a title. Still a fair match-up for Lesnar’s third fight ever in MMA.
[/quote]

I totally agree with you especially point 3. Brock succesfully tricked people into worrying about his standup, which did not look good. And Mir was supremely confident of his submission skills which were nullified by very good half guard top positioning.

98

I really didn’t think Lesnar looked that bad on his feet. He didn’t look great…but not bad. He’s such a big strong guy that:
1: You cant take him for granted on his feet, he CAN KO people…
2: He can take a shot or two…
3: he’s FAST…

You add that up and he presents a massive problem… If you throw anything with meaning, you better have the distance, speed, and take down defense to go with it…or you’re going to end up on your back…and thats bad.

I still think you’re right… Jab…circle…MAYBE a low kick here or there…but stay the fuck away. Make him push that big frame for 4…5 rounds.

And I said it myself, and you’re dead on: Mir was not afraid to be on his back…and that cost him. After that 1st round Mir and his trainer should have changed the game plan.

With Lesnar’s team, and his, it seems, willingness to listen to them, he is NOT going to be out game planned. Brocks got, what…another 4, 6 months before his next fight? If he stays in the gym and improves his stand up…lookout.

99

So basically Valor, you’re saying you have to box him, and box him well? No bullshit MMA haymakers, just straight punches down the pipe/ don’t back straight up etc etc.

100

[quote]Therizza wrote:
So basically Valor, you’re saying you have to box him, and box him well? No bullshit MMA haymakers, just straight punches down the pipe/ don’t back straight up etc etc.[/quote]

That would be my game plan…out point him and make him work hard for 4 rounds…and take my chances in the 5th. Hope he doesn’t catch you with a bull rush.