[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Wow,quite the effort to completely discredit Lesnar. tough to read some of this idiocy.
Most of the idiocy has been in Lesnar’s favor.[/quote]
A lot of people have their favorites and talk them up. I just don’t remember seeing so many people spend so much time discrediting a champion. The same people that said he would never beat randy now discredit the win any time they can. Same thing with the Mir win.
I’ll admit that I have picked Machida to lose in every fight since Tito, but I never discredited any of the those wins and have acknowledged that I was just plain wrong about him.
Well it was directed at anyone in this forum… with a spec of level headed judgment when it comes to the HW division. You qualify. I don’t know man, he has great skill, is near his max potential (imo) BUT he was a WWE Superstar for a long time.
I’m afraid he might revert to some bad habits, become BJ Penn-like in the future (by that I mean you know how BJ is like ‘im da prodigee man, i dont gotta work’) No disrespect to BJ, I love the guy, just sayin.
With all the nut-huggers, he might start ‘believing his own bullshit’ and not develop fully. On the flipside, Hughes was never a superstar so to speak, a hard worker and humble.
Maybe I’m just venting my feelings that the UFC is going to become the next WWF, with all the stupidity associated with it.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Wow,quite the effort to completely discredit Lesnar. tough to read some of this idiocy.
Most of the idiocy has been in Lesnar’s favor.
A lot of people have their favorites and talk them up. I just don’t remember seeing so many people spend so much time discrediting a champion. The same people that said he would never beat randy now discredit the win any time they can. Same thing with the Mir win.
I’ll admit that I have picked Machida to lose in every fight since Tito, but I never discredited any of the those wins and have acknowledged that I was just plain wrong about him.[/quote]
well…i have seen posts that reference what you’re saying. But they are the minority in regards to those that…as kmc put it…“glossing” key points about Lesnar. It’s pretty obvious who is worth discussing with…guy’s like yourself who favor Lesnar,yet know how to keep a realistic perspective and have a good eye for the fight game. I’m not completely sold on Lesnar as the best in HW division,but I recognize that he is a legit fighter with improving skills.
We all felt Mir had no chance walking into the fight. Why? The dude looked like he spent more time getting all inked up, rather than preparing for the fight. Someone said it early on that if you look at Mir’s history, he’s either hot or not.
The comments about Crocop taking him out? Are you serious? He’d manhandle Crocop and toss him around the cage like a rag doll - period.
I agree with the posters about Arlovski, for he (at the time) was a very well rounded fighter that would prove to be a good match-up with Lesner. Would he win? Hard to say, but at least it would be a good fight.
Do I think Lesner has the work ethic of Hughes? You bet. The guy busts his nuts in the gym and is willing to learn. He’s worked with Randy’s camp to do what? Learn.
IMHO, he’s got one of the best work ethics out there, as he’s more than willing to learn, he knows his limitations and capitalizes on what works best for him.
But so far, everyone walking into the cage with him, is fighting his fight. Just like every other division, each time someone else walks in and fights their opponents fight, they loose. The key is to have someone fight him and get him out of his comfort zone.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Wow,quite the effort to completely discredit Lesnar. tough to read some of this idiocy.
Most of the idiocy has been in Lesnar’s favor.
A lot of people have their favorites and talk them up. I just don’t remember seeing so many people spend so much time discrediting a champion. The same people that said he would never beat randy now discredit the win any time they can. Same thing with the Mir win.
I’ll admit that I have picked Machida to lose in every fight since Tito, but I never discredited any of the those wins and have acknowledged that I was just plain wrong about him.
well…i have seen posts that reference what you’re saying. But they are the minority in regards to those that…as kmc put it…“glossing” key points about Lesnar. It’s pretty obvious who is worth discussing with…guy’s like yourself who favor Lesnar,yet know how to keep a realistic perspective and have a good eye for the fight game. I’m not completely sold on Lesnar as the best in HW division,but I recognize that he is a legit fighter with improving skills. [/quote]
Agreed. I think the HW division is the most(maybe 2nd) exciting right now because there is no clear cut dominant HW. Lesnar has be the closest we have in the UFC, but you run any match-up at the top of the division 10 times and you probably end up with a 6 to 4 or 7 to 3 split. I don’t think you can say the same thing for the LW, WW, or MW divisions. 205 is pretty interesting as well.
[quote]Smallfry69 wrote:
But so far, everyone walking into the cage with him, is fighting his fight. Just like every other division, each time someone else walks in and fights their opponents fight, they loose. The key is to have someone fight him and get him out of his comfort zone.[/quote]
EXACTLY. But I think the biggest thing that loses the fight is that people are underestimating him. Somebody needs to respect his skills and take the fight to him.
[quote]Smallfry69 wrote:
he knows his limitations and capitalizes on what works best for him.
[/quote]
Good post, this part I appreciate the most. Listening to some, you would assume he had no limitations. The best part of the leadup to this fight is how all his prefight footage of training camp was (gasp) striking, and he obviously threw it out there as a feint, since he did little stand up, as that is his limitation and just capitalized on what works for him as you stated. So maybe I underestimate his gamesmanship with regards to mental warfare pre-fight.
I really think anyone can do it, in the cage anyone can win on any given night. But in lesnar vs. mir II i saw what looked to be a weakness in brock. no one has really had the balls to stand and strike with him. i really believe striking is his weakness in 2 ways.
ONE - he loves to throw these giant punches which are great when landed, but when he misses mir in the beginning of round 2 he literally spins and exposes his whole body and even his back until he gets turned back around. but he also no punch variety, just swing hard with the sledgehammers he calls hands.
TWO - when when mir finally got aggressive with his strikes and truly went at lesnar, lesnar doesnt stand tall and strike back he steps back and steps back and ends up back against the cage until he can wrestle him down. it looked like he didnt know what to do once someone actually came at him. i mean its easy to stand and fight someone when your the only one throwing punches while they just try to block and get out of the way. and we havent seen a good striker stand and really strike with lesnar.
lesnar hasnt been fighting long and it makes me wonder how great he is at taking big punches in return. thats a tolerance that most fighters have obtained because they have been doing whtat they do since they were kids or teens. but brock was a wrestler so he never took punches and looking through his 10 or 15 minutes of actual fight time how many times has he been hit hard? and i might be completely wrong but i would like to see someone try to stand and strike with him. his strength, size, and athletisism are incredible but they mask the fact that truly his only skill is wrestling and his heavy hands.
[quote]FightorFlight wrote:
I really think anyone can do it, in the cage anyone can win on any given night. But in lesnar vs. mir II i saw what looked to be a weakness in brock. no one has really had the balls to stand and strike with him. i really believe striking is his weakness in 2 ways. ONE - he loves to throw these giant punches which are great when landed, but when he misses mir in the beginning of round 2 he literally spins and exposes his whole body and even his back until he gets turned back around. but he also no punch variety, just swing hard with the sledgehammers he calls hands. TWO - when when mir finally got aggressive with his strikes and truly went at lesnar, lesnar doesnt stand tall and strike back he steps back and steps back and ends up back against the cage until he can wrestle him down. it looked like he didnt know what to do once someone actually came at him. i mean its easy to stand and fight someone when your the only one throwing punches while they just try to block and get out of the way. and we havent seen a good striker stand and really strike with lesnar. lesnar hasnt been fighting long and it makes me wonder how great he is at taking big punches in return. thats a tolerance that most fighters have obtained because they have been doing whtat they do since they were kids or teens. but brock was a wrestler so he never took punches and looking through his 10 or 15 minutes of actual fight time how many times has he been hit hard? and i might be completely wrong but i would like to see someone try to stand and strike with him. his strength, size, and athletisism are incredible but they mask the fact that truly his only skill is wrestling and his heavy hands. [/quote]
Nice observation. The thing is that good strikers are far and few in HW division. I think most are apprehensive because they are worried about exposing themselves and being overpowered and taken down with Brock on top of them. A position that NO ONE wants to be in. But if you’re fighting against Brock for the belt,you best give it all you got and fight like you really want that belt. You have to fight a smart fight…and like I said,respect his strengths and take the fight to him…but you can’t get too aggressive with him in close proximity.
Like I said before, Fedor imo would have a definite win. ONE mistake and Fedor will capitalize and collects that check. We all know Fedor has serious knock out power in his hands. Look at Sylvia he’s a big man and Fedor just got into his grill and fucked his shit up. Or Arlovski he caught him making a small mistake, and it didn’t even look like ge caught him with a bomb or anything and he still put him out of his misery.
Plus Fedor had tendency to beat most people in their own game. So he’s the best well rounded fighter, and just a complete genetic freak like mentioned earlier.
Edit: Not to mention Fedor had Hung Man Choi sitting ontop of him (now I know Hung Man Choi is not a wrestler like Brock at all, or even close… But look how fucking big he is and how much more he weighs then Brock) And Fedor still pulled off an easy win. Brock is bound to make many mistakes and Fedor will capitalize no doubt.
Fighters like Lesnar and even Kimbo are why the HW division is so shallow. If dudes with no MMA experience can come in and KTFO ok fighters there’s a problem. Athleticism or not. You don’t see a strong athletic guy dominate in the lower divisions like you are seeing in the HWs.
Some things to consider:
Lesnar’s Reach is 81 in. He had two inches on Mir. What’s Carwin’s reach? A longer reach alone can be a difference in the UFC. I mean if these guys were really top of the line boxers they wouldn’t be in MMA.
Takedowns. If you come in for a power shot Lesnar will take you down. So, in a stand-up match the only way I think you can beat Lesnar is with a lucky shot (that’s always possible in any match) or on points (jab, jab, back, circle, jab, jab, back, circle)
Subs. Lesnar has improved dramatically since Mir I. He was a bit too agressive the first go around and got caught. If not for that Mir would have been dominated as he was getting beat up until the tap-out.
Style. As Lesnar’s skills improve he may change his style and I think that could be a problem. Right now his “lay and pound” approach works. It’s not very fun and the fans hate it, but it wins. As he learns better standup and maybe even a sub or two he opens himself up for a knockout or reversal on the ground.
Concrete Chin. Lesnar got pounded daily in the WWE. Those rings aren’t made of cotton and so he’s been landing on his head for a number of years (explains a lot… ). Anyone remember his failed shooting star press? Dude has a thick neck and big fat head. Might have another Kazuyuki Fujita cranium on our hands here.
Oh, and as far as him beating Herring…who has KO’d Herring? Most of his losses are due to decision…dude stays up.
Brock is a true heavyweight. He is big and strong, and a talented athlete. If you want to break down who is considered the top heavyweights in the world in the past 5 years, you have talented LHW’s who do not cut weight, or big strong guys without an athletic bone in their body. Fedor, Couture, Nog, and Cro Cop are all great, but all of them are no bigger than any of the LHW’s. Barnett and AA break this mold, but Barnett’s career has been a roller coaster of poor judgment and inactivity, and AA has a glass jaw and after 8 years still can’t put his hands in front of his face and circle out instead of straight back which doesn’t really demonstrate to me he has the ability to adapt and learn like successful MMA fighters show.
MMA was a blip on the radar in the sporting world, and people like Brock were and have been picked off into other sports because they are the type of guys people want to pony up money for. Something extraordinary. He and guys like Carwin are the future of the sport.
Exactemundo! I see it breaking down like this. in 5-10 years, the heavyweight division could probably be populated with more guys going in straight from collegiate wrestling, or guys get cut from the NFL(thinking the linebacker position personally) If the sport continues to grow, the monetary incentives would be greater than when the sport began, and as some people have mentioned, that is the real drawback as for talent in the hw division.
If you are 250 pounds and athletic, what do you do after college? Try and play pro football or work in the WWE. That mindset might change in the future, or might not. Time will tell.
[quote]Therizza wrote:
Exactemundo! I see it breaking down like this. in 5-10 years, the heavyweight division could probably be populated with more guys going in straight from collegiate wrestling, or guys get cut from the NFL(thinking the linebacker position personally) If the sport continues to grow, the monetary incentives would be greater than when the sport began, and as some people have mentioned, that is the real drawback as for talent in the hw division.
If you are 250 pounds and athletic, what do you do after college? Try and play pro football or work in the WWE. That mindset might change in the future, or might not. Time will tell.[/quote]
Well some of that might be exemplified with upcoming season of TUF. At least we’ll get a peek at the potential for that to happen.
[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
Fighters like Lesnar and even Kimbo are why the HW division is so shallow. If dudes with no MMA experience can come in and KTFO ok fighters there’s a problem. Athleticism or not. You don’t see a strong athletic guy dominate in the lower divisions like you are seeing in the HWs.
[/quote]
they are not the reason, they are the symptom. the fact that you put Lesnar in with Kimbo is interesting. Guys that are only big and athletic don’t beat good fighters. Dominant one skill fighters have held the title in every division.
Others have already provide pretty good analysis of why the HW division is a bit more shallow.
Reach advantages are overcome in plenty of fights. Even with a reach advantage, I think we can all assume Mir would win a striking match with no TDs. Lesnar’s reach serves no advantage if he choses not to stand and strike.
Yep. TD defense is key. Either by sprawl or staying out of TD range. It appeared to me that Mir was a little too confident in his ground game to employ this stratagy. Big mistake.
Submitting Lesnar should not be plan A. It should be plan B. This may be contrary to what I typed in another thread before this last fight. Quite honestly, I expected his striking to be better and his ground control or sub defense not to have been so good against a really good submission guy. His GnP looked leaps and bounds better.
I couldn’t believe the boos and chants of “stand them up”. What, he layed there to get control for about 5 seconds before completly bashing Frank’s face? I guess people don’t like GnP anymore. He fucked Mir up on the ground and people will still call it lay and pray or lay and pound. Strange. I find myself more and more anoyed with the fans at live events. Way to quick to boo if the action lags a little.
Maybe, but his time in the WWE shouldn’t be much of an indication. IDK, people point out that he was rocked by Randy and by Frank but they must have a differnt definition of being rocked. Seemed like it didn’t effect him much. I really though Frank looked pretty quick and sharp. That flying knee was sweet. He just seemed to get a little too anxious. I think we will see Lesnar’s chin tested, but someone is going to have to really work on avoiding the TD while landing opportune shots. If you are willing to get taken down for that one big shot, you are going to get you ass kicked like frank did.
[quote]
Oh, and as far as him beating Herring…who has KO’d Herring? Most of his losses are due to decision…dude stays up.[/quote]
Herring has always been a B level fighter, but always put up a fight. Herring in Pride was a lot of fun to watch. He doesn’t seem to have the same aggression as he once did, nore does he appear to be in the same shape. Hope to see him back to form and putting on good fights, but he won’t be fighting for a title. Still a fair match-up for Lesnar’s third fight ever in MMA.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Brock is a true heavyweight. He is big and strong, and a talented athlete. If you want to break down who is considered the top heavyweights in the world in the past 5 years, you have talented LHW’s who do not cut weight, or big strong guys without an athletic bone in their body. Fedor, Couture, Nog, and Cro Cop are all great, but all of them are no bigger than any of the LHW’s. Barnett and AA break this mold, but Barnett’s career has been a roller coaster of poor judgment and inactivity, and AA has a glass jaw and after 8 years still can’t put his hands in front of his face and circle out instead of straight back which doesn’t really demonstrate to me he has the ability to adapt and learn like successful MMA fighters show.
MMA was a blip on the radar in the sporting world, and people like Brock were and have been picked off into other sports because they are the type of guys people want to pony up money for. Something extraordinary. He and guys like Carwin are the future of the sport. [/quote]
good post. this is the resurection of the HW division. It is nothing like the hayday of Pride or the previous HW glory days in the UFC. Completly different animals.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
JoeyDestroy wrote:
I’d say of the up and coming guys, Shane Carwin and Gonzaga both have what it takes to beat Brock Lesnar. I also think Nogueira can do it. and I wouldn’t count out Frank Mir or Randy Couture just yet. The HW division in the UFC is better than it has ever been.
the big flaw in Lesnar’s game is that he’s too one dimensional and he’s inexperienced. size and wrestling won’t last forever, that’s why I expect Shane Carwin to do well. I think Carwin’s wrestling is equal to or better than Lesnar’s because it’s been a while since Lesnar was in the NCAA and Carwin is more experienced with werstling for MMA + he is a purple belt in BJJ. Shane is also a very good striker.
Size won’t matter much because Shane Carwin also comes in at 265lbs.
I expect Carwin to nullify Lesnar’s only strengths. wrestling and size.
Good post.
As for Carwin’s size…he has a bigger head than Brock(lol) and cuts from 280lbs 2 months before fights. I wonder if he will just keep that weight and try to cut and walk in the cage at 280lbs for Brock. Although,Carwin weigh in at 259lbs against Gonzaga. I wonder if he’s trying to find right balance with his weight and conditioning/agility.[/quote]
thanx.
Gonzaga is a talented striker who can move real well on his feet for a heavyweight, so it’s possible Carwin was trying to be lighter keep up with Gonzaga. Carwin already has the agility/speed/endurance advantage on Lesnar, and Lesnar like to stay heavy, so I think Carwin might prepare to go in heavier against Lesnar…or at least that’s what I would advise if I were Carwin’s coach.
then again, 6lbs is nothing to a guy that huge. Shane Carwin might have accidentally stayed in the sauna for an extra 10 minutes.
also, in the Couture fight it looked like Lesnar was breathing pretty hard in the second round. Randy used his wrestling to force Brock to work, now imagine Carwin pressing Lesnar up against the cage and making Brock work like that.
). Anyone remember his failed shooting star press? Dude has a thick neck and big fat head. Might have another Kazuyuki Fujita cranium on our hands here.