He’s only won three fights, when it gets to four or five then lets say who can beat him.
[quote]Therizza wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Man the last fight I saw of Barnett he looked old and fat… so I dunno about that guy
Side note: I do value what Brock will force within the HW division, that being ACTUAL heavyweight fighters. Not 220 pounders who should be light heavies. There’s no room for those guys anymore, atleast not without insane skill/experience. There will be larger, more athletic heavyweight champions, unlike Tim fuckface Silvia of yore. I for one am excited to see what the hw division has in 5 years as far as manpower, I can see some real monsters evolving. As in that 265 pound GSP I mentioned earlier.
The UFC [maybe all orgs] is either gonna have to add another division to accomodate the new breed of Heavies or guys like Couture are gonna have to drop like you said. The size difference is just too much. Roy Jones’ dad said it best: “You don’t run a Volkswagon into a Mack truck.”
Perhaps true, make a super-heavyweight class for like 240-275 lbs? it will all depend on what fighters are in the organization of course.
[/quote]
actually, i’d like to see something like this, but more classes…have the WEC and UFC alternate weight classes, so to speak.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i think Kongo and Gonzaga are good match-ups for him.
while i think Velasquez and Carwin are tough, they’re basically just wrestlers that aren’t as big, strong and explosive as him, so won’t have any real advantage.
i think the true challenge for him is either a real striker (like Kongo), or a wild card type like Gonzaga.
if he gets some good people around him, i think he can improve for quite some time, and be damn near unbeatble if he brings up his striking and transitions.[/quote]
Come on,cyco…Gonzaga couldn’t keep Carwin down…and got KTFO by him by a short right hand with no hip behind it.
You guys seem to be misinformed about Carwin. He cuts from 280lbs…and I bet he’s just as strong and maybe stronger than Brock. AND he’s no stationary target…he can move…has good footwork…and can wrestle…and knock you out.
You guys are seriously doubting that Fedor can beat Brock? -_-
I said Carwin and Fedor are legit contenders! sheesh
Fedor - Pretty quick. Should be able to use strikes to avoid TD. If he gets taken down, I do believe he has his work cut out for him. I think the cage and the clinch game would be a sizable advantage for Lesnar.
Carwin - If he can avoid the TD he can outstrike him. I do think brock would still own the clinch. Brock was a better wrestler.
Overeem - If he can avoid the TD he can outstrike him. I also like Overeem in the clinch. He is big an nasty.
Barnett - If he can avoid the TD he can outstrike him. As good of a submission grappler as he is, I am still not sure he is that much better than Mir. Lesnar showed awesome top control.
Velasquez - If he can avoid the TD he can outstrike him.
Anyone else gets taken down and fucking destroyed. I think these are all competitive matches that I would love to see.
Brocks TDs and GnP are probably as good as they are going to get. How much better could he get? If he does learn a few submissions (i would start with a kimura) or becomes more fluid in his striking, he is going to be a tough nut to crack.
I said this a long time ago, but I think I would his clinch game religiously. If he learns to land knees and elbows from the clinch, I don’t think many people stand a chance of surviving. He send Randy into space with the knees he was landing.
I really can’t wait to see Carwin beat Velasquez and take on Brock. I think we will get to see a competitive fight that lasts more than one round. Maybe even longer than the Randy fight. This will tell us a lot about both guys.
Vegita: Fedor has been in “some” trouble with powerful wrestlers Randleman and Fujita, and was taken down and briefly outwrestled by Coleman and Arona. So Brock will probably be his toughest test yet. He will probably be taken down and be on his back vs Brock. The thing that most people kind of forget about Fedor is that he is a genetic freak as well. He has dynamite in his hands, he is chock full of fast twitch fibers (like Brock) and he has the hip looseness and explosion of an NFL cornerback. On the ground he moves like a 155 lber. So I doubt Brock can hold him down for long. I’m sure you read the Nog interview where he talked about how slippery he was. He basically wiggles like an eel and explodes.
Re: the rest of your list, I agree Barnett has a decent chance since he should be able to get out from under him and has better striking. I think Carwin it would depend on who ends up on their back first.
Tell you who I’d like to see is 2005 Crocop vs Brock, the Crocop that was almost impossible to bring down. Then again, I think everyone would like that Crocop back.
Re: a new weight class, are you kidding me? The hvwt divison is the worst in the UFC. Where are these fighters going to come from? I leave you with this quote “The real heavyweight champion of the world is playing defensive end or tight end in the NFL.”
Until 6’3 to 6’6, 250 to 280 lb men with 6% bodyfat stop playing football at the collegiate and pro level, there won’t be enough to talent to stack two hvwt divisions.
It could happen, but it means an awful lot of kids are going to pass up D1 scholarships and the life of a big-time college football player to hang out in smelly wrestling rooms on partial scholarships.
Not.
[quote]Therizza wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Therizza wrote:
It’ll just take time for camps to figure out an effective game plan against him. There’s like what, 10 minutes of fight tape to study on Brock right now?
What if the only effective game plan someone can come up with is to bring a baseball bat?
V
I don’t believe he will continue to exponentially increase in his capability as a fighter. I think the Brock we saw on saturday is more or less what will be his style/gameplan/conditioning for the rest of his career. You can’t turn someone into a world class striker… He’s basically gonna be a heavyweight Matt Hughes. So all we need is a HW GSP to come along in 5 years and beat him… I for one don’t particularly like his style, it’s not entertaining, it’s effective as hell, just not entertaining.
[/quote]
The thing is that Hughes was one of the most dominant WW of all time, and did drastically increase his capability as a fighter throughout his career. He started out as just a wrestler who would take guys down, control them, and pound them out. Then he developed his submission game (became a Black belt in JJ), and his striking game. I do agree with the comparison, but your image of Brock sounds more like Sean Sherk than Matt Hughes (basically just a strong wrestler who takes guys down and controls them).
If Brock can get his submissions and striking games up to a high level, look out because the guy is going to truly be a monster. And I don’t know why you don’t think he’ll continue to get more well rounded/better, the guy is a freak athlete, humble enough to listen to his coaches (coachable), and obviously hungry. I think he’s going to continue to develop at a very rapid pace and become one of the most dominant HW champions of all time when all is said and done.
I like Carwin a lot as a fighter and think he’s one of the few HW’s who has a chance of developing similarly and being a constant contender to Brock. But, he’s not as good of a wrestler (Randy Couture brought him in to prepare for Brock and apparently was tooling on him in both boxing and wrestling), is not as big as he used to be, and is older than Brock (less of a time window for improvement).
I still think he has as good a chance as anyone though. If Brock tries to stand and strike with him, he could very easily wind up with the belt. There aren’t any second chances with that big right hand of his.
Fedor is the man no doubt, but he’s never faced someone of Brock’s stature and freak athleticism who was also a dominant wrestler. I think that Fedor would win at the moment due to Brock’s inexperience, but wait a couple years and if Brock develops into his potential, Fedor would have some serious problems with him.
[quote]
I wish Arlovski hadn’t fallen off. A prime Arlovski v. Brock right now would be a great match up, imo.[/quote]
I’m a fan of Arlovski as well, but I don’t think he’d be able to handle Brock’s wrestling. He would definitely have a puncher’s chance though.
This is stupid Carwin kills Brock imo.
Strength=Carwin (He works with John Chaimberg and is just a beast)
Wrestling=Brock narrowly, I guarantee Couture would tool Brock in WRESTLING
Standup=Carwin come on he hits like a mack truck
Submissions=Carwin early wins are by submission
Camp=Carwin Jackson’s over Greg Nelson anyday
Exoerience= Carwin he’s been doing it longer
Lets really assess Brock’s wins, he beat Heath Herring (what wrestler couldn’t) lets also remember he didn’t finish Heath. Randy, Brock had 65 pounds on him, Couture had a long lay off and finally he was 45 and fighting a big wrestler. Hmmmm has Randy lost against bigger guys before yup Barnett he was winning and then lost by TKO. And Frank Mir Mr. inconsistent, he either wins quick or gets smashed, remember this dude got beat by Brandon Vera and Marcio Cruz by TKO. Mir has been in one fight that went three rounds look at his fight history wins quick or gets TKO’s nothing new. Lastly Carwin can also kick a skill really not seen by Brock.
I’m pretty sure Jet Li would WASTE Lesnar in any fight. Hands down. Too bad he doesn’t compete in MMA.
This is getting out of hand.
can we slow down the Nut hugging?
a little?
Brock is a freak.
super big
super strong
very fast- a freak.
looking at him would expect any less of him??
there is a huge lack of athletes in the 250 plus range that would/or could do MMA well
athletes this big strong athletic and skilled - kinda hard to come by
those attributes do make him quite formidable.
But lets look at him.
His credentials are not all that solid either as people and media play up.
very little MMA training
little striking training.
Even as a champion collge wrestler , his wrestling “pedigree” that lacks greco-
or ANY international expirience
and truth be told- he relied very heavily on size speed in college.
but why wouldn’t he?
he has no former juijitsu or other grappling besides american folk wrestling.
And he is 30-ish where recovery injuries start to catch up to an athlete-
particularly a very very large athlete
and being a former “pro wrestler” that shit is not kind to the body.
He trains at a camp that has produced only one other successful MMA player-
Sherk who isn’t too dissimilar from Brock
His coaches, they are like OK not geniuses , not like Jackson or even Delagrotta
And how many training partners can he really have?? at that size??
strikers?
real Juijitsu types?
Lets look at the fight
He did not look that great on his feet-
little to no head movement and a lack of footwork
no kicking…
no jab.
his takes downs are very rudimentary- more like a tackle.
but when your close to 300lbs and super fast- they don’t need to be.
he does’nt need to have a great amount of sophistication to either his takedowns
or his striking so no great loss there
his top game- was actually very good- he is very good at using his strengths there- size and power.
and if you watch the fight carefully his head control was very good.
his ground and pound does the job and probably would for most of his fights.
that being said he poses lots of problems for most people-
and will look good doing it.
every fighter at some point looks simply inhuman Hughes did for years.
Mike Tyson did too.
The fighter that will beat Brock will have to make Brock fight their fight, kind of hard to do to
such a big dude and thats the real issue-
taking such a giant out of his strengths.
Probably a mobile superior striker with decent wrestling could do it.
Or the crazy technician like a Sakuraba- who can take a beating
Other big wrestlers- who have been around longer- who train with better people could do it.
Or someone with some pretty serious leg kicks.
he is as beatable as anyone- it will just take time.
kmc
kmc pretty much nailed it.
A fighter with good wrestling and boxing should be able to finish Brock. The key would be the wrestling background, keep the hips back so that Brock can’t get the takedown easy.
Kicking would just leave the fighter off balance and too likely to get bowled over by Lesnar once he gets close. That leaves Crocop out.
Hoping to submit Brock from their back would also be too hard, as he’s too heavy and too strong with the GnP.
I think Mir was too willing to go to the ground, in the hopes of a sub. Not good early in the fight when Brock had peak power.
Barnett and Fedor would have the best chances of beating Lesnar, if they could avoid the takedowns. Fedor wins by overall skill and strategy, and if he throws bombs like he did with Sylvia, could end it quickly. Barnett’s size and experience would help in the later rounds, cause I don’t see him winning early.
I doubt if Barnett ever fights Lesnar…too much affiliation with Eric Paulson from both ends.
Right now,Carwin is the most realistic prospect to beat Brock,imo.
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
taking such a giant out of his strengths.
Probably a mobile superior striker with decent wrestling could do it.
Or the crazy technician like a Sakuraba- who can take a beating
Other big wrestlers- who have been around longer- who train with better people could do it.
Or someone with some pretty serious leg kicks.
he is as beatable as anyone- it will just take time.
kmc[/quote]
KMC, I agree completely.
On a side note, why did Mir not try to at least get out that half-nelson thing Brock had in round one>?
Wow,quite the effort to completely discredit Lesnar. tough to read some of this idiocy.
[quote]Therizza wrote:
kmcnyc wrote:
taking such a giant out of his strengths.
Probably a mobile superior striker with decent wrestling could do it.
Or the crazy technician like a Sakuraba- who can take a beating
Other big wrestlers- who have been around longer- who train with better people could do it.
Or someone with some pretty serious leg kicks.
he is as beatable as anyone- it will just take time.
kmc
KMC, I agree completely.
On a side note, why did Mir not try to at least get out that half-nelson thing Brock had in round one>? [/quote]
Because he underestimated Brock’s improved top game and was way to comfortable on the bottom.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Wow,quite the effort to completely discredit Lesnar. tough to read some of this idiocy.[/quote]
Most of the idiocy has been in Lesnar’s favor.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Wow,quite the effort to completely discredit Lesnar. tough to read some of this idiocy.[/quote]
Not at all mate,
read it again I praise him where he deserves it
and point out the truths that some are glossing over.
not so harsh at all.
kmc
Do you think Lesnar has the work ethic of Hughes? (and don’t use the argument ‘they’re both farmboys’)
[quote]Therizza wrote:
Do you think Lesnar has the work ethic of Hughes? (and don’t use the argument ‘they’re both farmboys’)[/quote]
I would say that he does. He wouldn’t have come as far as he has(in short time) if he didn’t have strong work ethic. Didn’t know who you were directing the question at…but I figured I’d chime in.