Which Martial Art?

Training Powerlifting
61

[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:

Sounds to me like you are speaking of MMA or octagon fighting, and not a real fight.

A real fight takes seconds to be over (usually under 10 seconds…20 at MOST).

And, I did not say to attack mindlessly, did I?

Have you ever been in a street fight when your ass was on the line? I have…but as CalLaw said before…you don’t have to believe me.

[/quote]

We’re on the internet, you don’t know me, I don’t know you…I could claim a hundred street fights and you probably wouldn’t believe it. However, having been in the Army where bar fights could be almost a weekly occurence, I will say that I have been in a few. I’m no Rickson Gracie, so I have lost my share of stupid fights =) , but I’ve never been seriously injured which I attribute to training, not some sort of survival instinct.

Your post did suggest that an untrained individual with an “intent” could beat a guy with multiple years of training. While it is desirable to have that killer instinct as you say, an individual lacking that would not benefit from going to Jungle warfare training. That is a little silly.

Whether a stone cold killer or a nancy, to prepare yourself for, and be successful in, a streetfight, you must train in fighting. Plain and simple. You can’t just train the desire to hurt someone and expect to win fights.

62

Lots of good observations, so maybe I’ll add/rehash a few. I started training in the martial arts 25 years ago purely for self defense. I was taught a lot of point fighting techniques but not very much in the way of self defense. I won my share of trophies but those pieces of plastic wouldn’t help me one bit in an actual encounter unless I hit someone with it.

After about 3 years I started kickboxing PKA style and then evolved to Muay Thai which is more effective considering the low kicks, knees and elbows etc. I firmly believe the most important element of training is contact. If you aren’t used to taking a shot, you’re in trouble in the event of an actual altercation. In a street fight, chances are you’re going to get hit.

By more than one person if you’re not aware of your surroundings. Years ago, I came back around to my original intent, that being pure self defense. Even before MMA became popular, I always said, show me a guy who can kick, box and wrestle, and I’ll show you a guy who is hard to beat (thank you, now I’ll take a bow). I teach self defense classes twice a week and leave out the useless BS such as backfists, highkicks etc.

I tend to measure a technique by its’ practicality rather than tradition. One last note, weight training definitely helps in this area, so we have a little edge over the guy who doesn’t (all else being fairly equal).

63

[quote]slimjim wrote:
AlphaDragon wrote:

Sounds to me like you are speaking of MMA or octagon fighting, and not a real fight.

A real fight takes seconds to be over (usually under 10 seconds…20 at MOST).

And, I did not say to attack mindlessly, did I?

Have you ever been in a street fight when your ass was on the line? I have…but as CalLaw said before…you don’t have to believe me.

We’re on the internet, you don’t know me, I don’t know you…I could claim a hundred street fights and you probably wouldn’t believe it. However, having been in the Army where bar fights could be almost a weekly occurence, I will say that I have been in a few. I’m no Rickson Gracie, so I have lost my share of stupid fights =) , but I’ve never been seriously injured which I attribute to training, not some sort of survival instinct.

Your post did suggest that an untrained individual with an “intent” could beat a guy with multiple years of training. While it is desirable to have that killer instinct as you say, an individual lacking that would not benefit from going to Jungle warfare training. That is a little silly.

Whether a stone cold killer or a nancy, to prepare yourself for, and be successful in, a streetfight, you must train in fighting. Plain and simple. You can’t just train the desire to hurt someone and expect to win fights.[/quote]

Totally agreed.

Maybe I was a little poor with my verbage, but I was trying to make a distinction betweeen a scrap/scuffle/brawl and a situation where one has their ass/life literally on the line. Apparently I did a poor job.

Most folks think they are the same thing, without realizing that the truth about the matter…that they are worlds apart.

As you said, we don’t know each other and for all you know, I can be full of crap but I digress…

Bar fights can be considered a more “safe and controlled” arena…eventually the cops will come or some other kind of authorative method will set things right. Chance of that happening is near 100%. That does not mean broken bones, lacerations, and other injuries (some of which have the potential to be serious) can occur.

Street fights can end with death…period. Cuts/scrapes/lascerations are all a part of it…and they happen frequently. Chances are, no law-enforcement group will be able to come to your help should one find him/herself on his ass. It is a more unpredictable environment and less forgiving…less chances to escape from mistakes.

My comment about Jungle Warfare school (etc) was more geared to make a distinction between a “killer” and a “fighter”. “Killers” (as I have come to learn) would allow themselves to be stabbed (if they had to), shot, whatever, in order to get the job done. Of course, with their training they don’t “Allow” it to happen, but if it does, they accept it and finish the job (if possible).

You can’t beat a person like that…that was the comment about “killer instinct”.

I suppose it was a little off topic though, but perhaps a good point nonetheless. Although, you never know who you are fighting…a nancy or a killer…until you are in it.

After my friends lesson (as described a few posts ago), I realized there are many people out there who are “killers”…amd I don’t fight now (or I should say, I have not been in one since, if I can get out of it).

If one can get out of it, go for it…get out of it. If you can get out of it and stay and fight, it’s ego…and ego can get you crippled or killed.

hope this comes across better, I just woke up. :wink:

64

Something to consider is the answer to the question, “where am I most vulnerable?” Start with your weakest point or a situation that leaves you at a disadvantage. Sure, it’s great to be able to hit someone once and have the fight be over but are you worried about someone who you can beat with one punch or the guy who will laugh when you hit him? Are you preparing to face someone your size or smaller, or someone who is 50-100 pounds heavier?

I’m 5’6" and I can train boxing all day, every day for 20 years but if I have to fight someone a foot taller and 50-100 pounds heavier, I’m not getting into a fist fight with him. If we both throw 20 punches I can hit him all 20 (I doubt I could even reach his head) and he’ll still be standing. He only has to be right once and I’ll be in trouble. Prepare for the worst. Awareness is your best friend.

65

To capnsalty.

Yes I do sit w/ my back to the wall. And near the exits too.

I always watch people. You can usually see who wants to do what when you pay attention.

I am prepared to run like a bitch at the a moments notice.

My bar days are all but over. Different lifestyle now and no need to go.

I don’t want to prejudge anyone but there is a huge misconception between sport defenses (99.9%) of martial arts and real fighting. Two people squaring off outside a corner is a fuck of a lot different than an assailant mugging/raping/kidnapping etc, you.

People who chose to not know what is going on around them are what criminals are looking for. DON’T BE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE! Pay attention to who is around the parking lot when you get out of the gym late at night. Have your car keys held firmly in your hand, one key out. Keep people at a distance. No one needs to be able to reach out and touch you to ask the time or “bum a smoke” etc.

I’m comfortable with my survival defense skills. I value my life highly. Anyone who tries to personify what T-Nation is about should too.

It’s been said before but, paranoia is simply knowing all the facts.

And I don’t know, but if I did coke, would I not be more prone to violent outbursts? I’ve never heard of it causing paranoia.

66

[quote]TYR wrote:

I don’t want to prejudge anyone but there is a huge misconception between sport defenses (99.9%) of martial arts and real fighting. Two people squaring off outside a corner is a fuck of a lot different than an assailant mugging/raping/kidnapping etc, you.
[/quote]

I fully agree with this.

Although, TYR, it sounds as though you can’t relax in public…and if that’s true, your stress level rises just by being outside.

Always aware…always watching…

vs.

Being passively aware and only “on alert” as something gets too close.

Sounds like you are the first one, IMHO.

Do you find that you are more agitated and less capable of relaxing in the state of mind you demonstrate with your previous post?

Not picking a word war, but curious, because I used to be that way (always on guard) and it was very abrasive and I led a very solitary lifestyle with few friends. Now that I’ve relaxed a lot and let the “passive radar” do it’s work, and only become wary when that radar tells me to, life is a lot more enjoyable and fullfilling.

67

Take a look at a few of these videos of Matt Thornton talking about “aliveness”. This is one of the most important things you can think about when considering a place to train.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=matt+thornton

Secondly, here is a good place to search for a place to train in your area.

http://www.fightresource.com/viewschools.php?PHPSESSID=54e4a0474b22f3c8a613e767a76906f0

68

AlphaDragon

I am quite capable at relaxing when I am out. I use this as a guideline.

Four Condition Colours:

White-at home, at a friends, etc.

Yellow-the usual state. Aware but nothing out of the ordinary.

Orange-akin to “Why is that guy standing there at this time?”, “How come my window looks open?” etc. Be prepared to act immediately.

Red-Immediate threat. Take him out or take off.

By being aware and confident in myself if it goes to condition Red, I actually enjoy going out.

While it’s true I keep a small circle of friends, that is due more to my age and schedule. Also, with my responsibilites as an adult, I can’t go out and start bar fights every weekend anymore. I still miss that sometimes so I’ve taken up boxing for fun to let out my agressions. :slight_smile:

69

[quote]alwayslearning wrote:
My goal is to simply learn how to ‘look after myself’ in case the situation arises.
[/quote]

Buy Bas Rutten’s DVD

hehehe…

70

Priorites:

  1. Awareness
  2. Killer instinct
  3. Ability to punch hard
  4. Takedown defence
  5. Basic ground work

Different martial arts address these to a differing degree. So priotise

  1. A good instructor
  2. Your weaknesses

Seeing as how I know the originally poster I would say boxing first (covers 2 and 3). Once you get good at that, look to address other areas. Get a book by Geoff Thompson or Peter constantdine ref street self protection to cover point 1

As GT always said [paraphrased] “the key to self defence is being able to hit fucking hard”

71

a real fight is anything anything goes. The Most deadly art is Wun Gun Fu. I mean one gun, fool.

72

[quote]Jack_Dempsey wrote:
“You’ll most likely learn how to do the techniques wrong, and then have to relearn the techniques once you get there.”

Yeah, because the average instructor at the local strip mall McDojo is a much better instructor than Rob Kaman and Karo Parisyan…

Evan Tanner went from training himself with instructionals straight into the UFC.

And this guy wants to protect himself on the streets, not win an olympic judo gold.

Learn the basics and get a feel for the art before jumping into a school that is going to try to pressure you into a long membership.[/quote]

cough strawman cough

First of all, if you’re going to go to a shitty teacher, then why learn the art at all? Secondly, I’m not saying the instructionals on the DVDs aren’t good, I’m just saying it’s a very difficult way to learn the form, and since you can’t see yourself do it it’s very easy to learn to do it incorrectly, and then compound the error by repeating it.

The gym I went to was on a monthly basis. Maybe the gyms you go to just suck. (for the record, the trainer Mark Delagrotte on the Ultimate Fighter 4 was the trainer and owns the gym I went to, Sidyodtong in Somerville, MA).

73

[quote]BudhaFunkSoulja wrote:
alwayslearning wrote:
My goal is to simply learn how to ‘look after myself’ in case the situation arises.

Buy Bas Rutten’s DVD

hehehe…[/quote]

Danga da danga da dang! hahahah Beautiful!

74

Can’t believe no-one has mentioned Rexkwondo.

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[quote]Thundercleese wrote:
Can’t believe no-one has mentioned Rexkwondo.[/quote]

I tried Rexkwondo a couple times. I’d been training in Brazilian Jujitsu, Muay Thai, and Boxing for about 10 years at that point and was looking for something new- maybe to test my abilities a little, you know. So I walked into the closest Rexkwondo school, watched a little bit, and challenged the instructor.

Normally I don’t do these kinds of things (only twice every month) but from what I saw of the school, I had to know how bad they really were. I mean shit, one of the students had a mini-carrot top fro and the teacher was…well… you’ve seen him too.

So, after an hour of watching this crap, I challeneged the teacher to a friendly, NHB full-contact sparring match. He said he doesn’t do “that” as his techniques are too deadly for competition, but his student, “fro-boy dynamite” or some shit, could fight me. I called 911 before we stepped on the mat.

Anyway, I don’t want to blow my own horn by telling you how badly I beat these guys, but let’s just say that BJJ is still king and always will be.

Overall I found the standup of Rexkwondo to be ineffective (who really uses Nunchakus anyway), and the ground tactics were uninteresting. If there even are any, that is; I knocked all those guys out with my single leg takedown- must have been the shock.

More than that, they couldn’t even do a quality pushup and had no idea what a “training complex” is, or that creatine and muscle doesn’t make you slow…sheesh. So, that’s my experience with Rexkwondo.
BJJ FOR LIFE YO!
-B

76

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:

The gym I went to was on a monthly basis. Maybe the gyms you go to just suck. (for the record, the trainer Mark Delagrotte on the Ultimate Fighter 4 was the trainer and owns the gym I went to, Sidyodtong in Somerville, MA).[/quote]

I took bjj for six years at a good school and a year or so ago switched to a great judo school. I do muay thai alone in my garage with instructionals. Paying for one school is enough for me. I really, really liked bjj but I found out I loved judo.

I think I would have picked judo 6 years ago had I spent time studying instructionals before joining a school. I regret it. No knock on bjj. I really like it and find it valuable. It’s just a preference thing.

I had watched another judo – not Karo’s – instructional for months before switching disciplines last year and let’s just say I assimilated very, very quickly. It was worth every penny and then some.

I’m not anti-school. Far from it. But instructionals have really helped me out and, contrary to most people I guess, I think they are valuable for the beginner. When I was doing bjj two nights a week at a school, I’d still come home, go out in my garage, get out my grappling dummy and throw on my Cesar Gracie dvd’s.

And now I do the same thing in judo and muay thai. You can’t train in your school at 2am, but you can get a decent workout with Rob Kaman or Karo.

77

Hi guys,

Lots of good points made so far.

I think that making an argument for a specific system is good in some instances, but what really needs to be addressed is the need for an all-inclusive approach to self defense (since that’s what the OP was asking about).

So, on that note I would suggest to the OP to make sure that he trains in all arsenals and fighting ranges.

So, in other words;

  1. Learn a grappling art (preferably one that also teaches submissions/submission defenses) examples include Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ included), Sambo, Judo, etc…

  2. Learn a striking art; examples include boxing, kickboxing, Muy Thai, etc…

  3. Learn “street effective” arsenals (biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks, body handles, and environmental weapons). Oh, and just to clarify, I only used the term “street effective” to differentiate between tactics that are legal in sporting competition (aka MMA) and those that are not. I’m not trying to suggest that what they do in MMA won’t work in the street.

  4. Modern weaponry. In other words, as someone already alluded to, guns and knives can be great equalizers, and very effective self defense tools in the right hands. They are also probably among the most dangerous weapons that you might encounter. So, you should learn how to use them, learn their strengths and limitations, and learn how to survive against them (or at least maximize your potential for survival).

  5. Learn the cerebral side of self defense. This includes awareness training, verbal and postural self defense tactics, understanding how to read people’s body language, Killer instinct, anything goes mindset, humility, etc…

  6. Supplement your training (regardless of what system(s) you choose) with intense supplementary physical training (resistance training, muscular and cardio vascular endurance training, flexibility work, etc…). Superior athleticism is of huge benefit when it comes to combat.

If you address all of the above areas, you should be in good shape to defend yourself (or a loved one) if the need ever arises.

Jack Dempsey,

I’m not trying to argue that you are not sincere about having gained a great deal from practicing with the help of instructional videos.

However, I think you should keep in mind that during the time you were doing so, you also were actually training at a school. Instructional videos can be a great supplementary device and can increase your rate of improvement. However, relying on them as a sole means of instruction probably isn’t the best route to take.

As someone mentioned earlier (sorry can’t remember who it was), learning the movements from video tapes can lead to incorrect mechanics. The only way that this might be avoided would be if on the tape the instructor really, and I mean really, broke down the techniques. This might mean that you would have a 2 hour tape on just the jab. It would also require you to slowly and painstakingly develop the techniques in front of a mirror, so that you could make certain that you were doing them perfectly.

Honestly even then, I doubt that you would get the techniques down well, as one also needs to hit things to really feel the correct mechanics. Also, you usually need to have someone holding the pads (who knows what the punch is supposed to feel like) to give you feed back. This would be extremely difficult to do if working via instructional video (unless of course you had a training partner who was experienced, but in that case why not just have them teach you).

Once again, video instructionals=good supplementary training device, bad primary training device.

Good luck and good training,

Sentoguy

78

I’ve just caught the tail end of this post so if any of this was covered please correct me…I’m sure a lot of good and bad points have been made with this argument. In my OPINION,I believe there is no best martial art. Every martial art has something worth learning. There is so much to address when it comes to self defense(real self defense,not sport).

Everything is mental before it ever becomes physical…someone was talking about being in the bar and running(don’t remember the whole post). In a sense I can understand that as you have to play the “what-if-game.” This doesn’t make you paranoid…just aware of your surroundings and prepares your mind if things go down. Trust me,its important.

Every idea that everyone has stated has its good points and bad points…has anyone mentioned that boxing is good to know for hand speed and coordination but doesn’t truly teach someone how to punch without gloves…you can’t fight with broke hands. Adrenaline might give you a few seconds to spare depending on how long the situation is lasting. I was taught to use closed fists for soft tissue strikes,open hand or hammerfist for skull area.

Some kicks are good…but there is a lot of timing involved…even with low kicks. Are you attacking first?..what kind of shoes and pants are you wearing…whats your target?..Is the floor wet,carpet,etc?

As for ground fighting…are you going to take it to the ground on purpose…cause you limit your view of whats going on around you…even with the person you’re fighting. Can you see the knife/gun he just pulled out his pocket? Is someone gonna take a cheap shot while you’re on the ground? If it goes to the ground…have the skill to get back on your feet quickly…trust me.

There’s just so much to address…for those that know self defense…you know its better to know a few simple techniques real well than a bunch of BS that won’t work. Who cares if it doesn’t look smooth like Jet Li as long as you can live to wipe your ass another day. Holla.

79

I posted this on another thread, but it is equally relevant here:

The list of effective martial arts is a pretty short list:

Grappling Based Martial Arts
Judo
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Sambo
Catch Wrestling
Greco-Roman Wrestling
Freestyle/Folkstyle Wrestling

Striking Based Martial Arts
Boxing
Kickboxing
Muay Thai/Burmese Boxing
Kyukashin Karate
San Shou/Sanda
Savate

If you are taking other martial arts because you enjoy them, then by all means take them. But if you are taking a martial art for actual fighting ability, you should choose from the above list. To be well rounded, you need at least one from each column. To be an MMA fighter… well, that’s another story altogether…

I will also add that what all of these martial arts/combat sports have in common is that whatever the term is used to describe it, each of them involves full contact sparring using the full range of your techniques against a live fully resisting human being using the those techniques back at you. They all rely on gross motor skills as opposed to fine motor skills and they are all based on sound principles.

80

I’m a tiny little woman and I’ve been jumped 4 times, I also “won” all 4 times. My martial arts training didn’t come into play at all.
2 of the times I anticipated it by the way the men were eyeing me and the other 2 were suprise attacks. 3 of the times I took off running, in stillettos twice I shit you not. And the fourth time I was jumped in Beijing (I was there for a wushu competition nonetheless) by a street kid. Instead of giving him money I gave him food. He took them and started laughing, then said thank you.

Don’t take MA so when a situation where you can use it you do. Fighting is your last option. However, take martial arts to improve your discipline and body. Personally I think that the teacher is more important than the type of martial art. Find a great teacher and whatever MA he teaches, you’ll become efficient at.