Where to Put More Upper Back Work?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

A while ago I posted my then-current routing looking for advice. I was surprised to see that some people looked at what I was doing and went so far as to suspect I was trolling the forums. At first I was annoyed, and then I realized I must be doing something pretty horribly wrong if people actually thought I was trolling.

So I took the advice I got, laid low, and made from progress. I’m hitting 1RM’s, I’m not fatigued all day afterwards, and I’m putting weight on the scale again.

I’ve come back to ask for some advice on one issue though. Although I’m doing compound lifts frequently, I think I need to add in some work for my upper back and maybe some more lats, but I’m not sure what to do or how to put it into my schedule. Again, I like this program and I am making progress in the big lifts so I don’t want to scrap it altogether, but I am looking for where I can work on upper back and what I maybe should sacrifice to do so. With that in mind, any advice is appreciated.

Two caveats:
*Only work sets are listed, 2:00 rest between work sets.
*I know my squat/deadlift #'s are low. Part of that is just being weak in the legs, and I’m working on that. However, hitting them 3x per week also means I can’t do an all-out 6x6 or 3x3 or true 1RM, but I’m finding that hitting them frequently at a moderate intensity yields better results than going really heavy 1x per week. I’m checking my ego and making progress.

Mon:
Squat - 6x6@145 (Pausing at bottom)
Deadlift - 6x6@205

Tue:
Bench - 6x6@205
Pullups - 6x6@35

Wed:
Squat - 3x3@165 (Pausing at bottom)
Deadlift - 3x3@235

Thur:
Bench - 3x3@235
Pullups - 3x3@55

Fri:
Unit PT

Sat:
Bench - Pyramid to 1RM, ~265
Pullups - Pyramid to 1RM, ~85
Squat - Pyramid to 1RM, ~215
Deadlift - Pyramid to 1RM, ~285.

Sun:
Shoulder Press: 3x3@115
Superset: 4x10@10lb DB’s

  • Front Raise
  • Lateral Raise
  • Bent Over Rev Fly
    -Shoulder Press
    1 Drop Set supported reverse flyes:
    -30@30s (supramaximal)
    -30@15s (supra)
    -15@5 (full ROM)
2

What exactly are you thinking of doing for upper back? I personally find the upper back and rear delts to be very resilient and able to handle high-frequency/volume. You could probably throw this in on any training day, provided you keep check of your intensity. Otherwise I’d say on your Tuesdays/Thursdays.

One good way of getting some extra volume in is to purchase some voodoo bands or similar and to perform a few highish-rep sets of band pull-aparts in your free time.

3

Neutral grip chin ups and face pulls clustered around your pressing. As in before, between sets AND after.

Thank me later.

4

Perhaps you should just read this website a little more.
Dump your routine and choose a ready made program by one of the authors or top posters that often give great routines.
Your program doesn’t have a single rowing movement yet you are wanting to build upper back.

Read this entire thread:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/do_this_routine_instead_of_that_dumb_one?id=4404649&pageNo=0

5

[quote]rwhipple08 wrote:

So I took the advice I got, [/quote]

No, you didn’t.

As mentioned above and previous recommendations, get on a basic strength program. Im going to add, A PROVEN basic strength program.

Squat and deadlifts, on the same day, 3 times a week? And you think your legs are weak because?!?!?! Your lower back must be fried also.

6

[quote]kgildner wrote:
What exactly are you thinking of doing for upper back? I personally find the upper back and rear delts to be very resilient and able to handle high-frequency/volume. You could probably throw this in on any training day, provided you keep check of your intensity. Otherwise I’d say on your Tuesdays/Thursdays.

One good way of getting some extra volume in is to purchase some voodoo bands or similar and to perform a few highish-rep sets of band pull-aparts in your free time.[/quote]

I was counting on the deadlifting to build traps and back up some. It seems there is a pretty big camp of people who say “no one who lifts X lbs in X lift is small” and I was thinking that focusing on the big lifts would help me make some progress.

[quote]mutantcolors wrote:
Neutral grip chin ups and face pulls clustered around your pressing. As in before, between sets AND after.

Thank me later.[/quote]

I see the wisdom here. Although i’ve really been enjoying the weighted pullups, since I feel the extra weight ensures I have to use my lats instead of just biceps, but I know I wasn’t doing a lot of volume.

[quote]Angus1 wrote:
Perhaps you should just read this website a little more.
Dump your routine and choose a ready made program by one of the authors or top posters that often give great routines.
Your program doesn’t have a single rowing movement yet you are wanting to build upper back.

Read this entire thread:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/do_this_routine_instead_of_that_dumb_one?id=4404649&pageNo=0[/quote]

The problem with “read the site more” is that the articles on this site are all over the place. One month all the authors are advising to lift heavy/low volume; sometimes they are advising more volume at lighter weights, single leg, then double leg, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I have learned a lot here, but the reason I come to the forums with my own situation is to try to get a coherent plan that I can actually set myself to.

I recognize I don’t do any rowing; I like doing them but don’t because I always feel like I’m going too light or cheating. I suppose I just need to practice more to find that sweet spot in the middle.

[quote]JFG wrote:

[quote]rwhipple08 wrote:

So I took the advice I got, [/quote]

No, you didn’t.

As mentioned above and previous recommendations, get on a basic strength program. Im going to add, A PROVEN basic strength program.

Squat and deadlifts, on the same day, 3 times a week? And you think your legs are weak because?!?!?! Your lower back must be fried also.[/quote]

I can see your point of view, but I disagree with parts of what you are saying. My choice to squat and deadlift 3x per week was based off of some articles that were emphasizing the idea of strength as a skill to be practiced, ie; a quarterback doesn’t throw the ball just once a week in the game, so similarly don’t just do the big lifts once a week. Scale down to a weight you can work with throughout the week and go for it.

My frustration with “proven” programs is that for whatever reason, I don’t usually seem to make progress on them. However, I think part of my recent success has come from using a really good iPhone app as a gym log that helps me keep rest consistent and see historical trends/progress much better. With that in mind, I’m willing to take the plunge and attempt one of the more complicated programs in that thread. I’ll be back in a few months; hopefully with even more progress to show for my efforts!

7

[quote]mutantcolors wrote:
Neutral grip chin ups and face pulls clustered around your pressing. As in before, between sets AND after.

Thank me later.[/quote]

Great advice. although I would not say add weighted chins, since he is doing them already 3x a week. facepulls between sets is gold, have used that many times.

I also have used the following—putting 3 sets of back work in my warm-up EVERY workout. Not to failure, its a warm-up. But do get good quality reps in. I do this with facepulls or rowing variations where I can focus on my back without going super heavy (say, chest supported ros rather than bent row–goal is keep lower back out of it to keep it fresh for lower body work.

for instance, for most of this year I have hit facepull variations or high cable row variations and power snatch work in my daily warm-ups. that works out to approximately 25-30 sets of back workout per week, in my warm-ups–not including any work I do in the session’s main part. no all-out sets, you ought leave plenty in the tznk so your back isn’t fried for squat and deadlift, but it works well.

I don’t necessarily see a problem with you squatting and deadlifting the way you are now at all. Just bear in mind if you stall you may want to switch things up. I also like squatting very frequently (5x-6x a week right now, depending). No problems at all, just keep at it.

8

For years I had a nagging muscular shoulder pain, somewhere between mid-line and scapula on the right. I moved to go to college and no longer had the daily massage from the GF available to keep it at bay, so I had to learn to treat it myself.

Between face pulls 3-5 times a week and med ball rolling my upper back (along with whatever body I was about to work) I conquered the pain and grew a reasonable set of traps, AND have no shoulder joint issues to speak of. Never really figured out what the issue was, but i certainly figured out how to make it go away.

9

I would echo what aragorn said, plus recommend high rep, heavy weight dumbbell rows (aka “kroc rows”) once or twice a week. (edit - because your program doesn’t have any horizontal rowing)

I personally find i can squat everyday(but not super heavy everyday) but struggle to recover if i deadlift more than 2x a week.

10

Heavy high pulls are also pretty awesome.

11

Lets see if I can clarify what Im saying.

Nothing wrong with squatting or dealifting 3X plus a week. I personally have never seen a program that does both at the same time, on the same day. IMHO, they are too taxing. I also have never seen a powerlifting program that does that. If I am wrong, and you know of a PROVEN program, then I would be more then happy to retract this statement. If I don’t know, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

You also said you could not do the all out 6x6, 3x3, 1RM. Is that not proof enough that it is not a good program for you? Wouldn’t a 5x5 type program be better? Follow for a full cycle (usually 8-10 weeks), get your numbers up, THEN concentrate on the "upper back? I am talking getting a good base before anything else!

The fact the “proven” programs don’t work for you, as nothing to do with the program. The fact that you now have a good iPhone app is the answer staring you in the face. You see, consistency is key. You app is a tool to keep consistent. If you did (as an example) SL5x5 for the full 12 weeks duration, adding the weight as prescribed. With everything else being optimal, you WILL see results. Adding 180lbs to your squat will make a change.

BTW, quoting me that football analogy just tells me that you are overthinking things. Too much info, not enough knowledge.

12

[quote]JFG wrote:
Lets see if I can clarify what Im saying.

Nothing wrong with squatting or dealifting 3X plus a week. I personally have never seen a program that does both at the same time, on the same day. IMHO, they are too taxing. I also have never seen a powerlifting program that does that. If I am wrong, and you know of a PROVEN program, then I would be more then happy to retract this statement. If I don’t know, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.[/quote]

Sheiko brother. Sheiko. Lots of strong ass lifters use Sheiko, which is essentially squat/bench/deadlift every workout, 3-4x a week, all at the same time.

With respect, you should always concentrate on building a back along with your main 3 lifts, 5x5 or not. Not doing so is essentially just waiting until it becomes a much weaker link.

Also, with respect, the whole point of frequent squatting or pulling is that you don’t have to push the all out limit. Frequent training is sort of a 1+1=3 thing with regards to intensity. For example, my little brother does the following: 5x5, 3x5 front squat, 3x3, 3x5 front squat, 5x5 front squat, OH squat max or triple (optional). You simply don’t need to push yourself to the utter limit when you do something so frequently. It’s not wise, actually, unless the lift itself is very limited on the eccentric phase and relies much more on speed (ala olympic lifts)

Also, see Sheiko above. Rarely has you training above 80% 1RM, but damn if there aren’t guys squatting huge off of it both raw and equipped. Al Caslow squatted 865 and totaled 2100 at a bodyweight in the 165 lb class, and trains primarily Sheiko style and there are other guys doing it raw and putting up big numbers as well.

This I thoroughly agree with.

13

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]JFG wrote:
Lets see if I can clarify what Im saying.

Nothing wrong with squatting or dealifting 3X plus a week. I personally have never seen a program that does both at the same time, on the same day. IMHO, they are too taxing. I also have never seen a powerlifting program that does that. If I am wrong, and you know of a PROVEN program, then I would be more then happy to retract this statement. If I don’t know, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.[/quote]

Sheiko brother. Sheiko. Lots of strong ass lifters use Sheiko, which is essentially squat/bench/deadlift every workout, 3-4x a week, all at the same time.

With respect, you should always concentrate on building a back along with your main 3 lifts, 5x5 or not. Not doing so is essentially just waiting until it becomes a much weaker link.

Also, with respect, the whole point of frequent squatting or pulling is that you don’t have to push the all out limit. Frequent training is sort of a 1+1=3 thing with regards to intensity. For example, my little brother does the following: 5x5, 3x5 front squat, 3x3, 3x5 front squat, 5x5 front squat, OH squat max or triple (optional). You simply don’t need to push yourself to the utter limit when you do something so frequently. It’s not wise, actually, unless the lift itself is very limited on the eccentric phase and relies much more on speed (ala olympic lifts)

Also, see Sheiko above. Rarely has you training above 80% 1RM, but damn if there aren’t guys squatting huge off of it both raw and equipped. Al Caslow squatted 865 and totaled 2100 at a bodyweight in the 165 lb class, and trains primarily Sheiko style and there are other guys doing it raw and putting up big numbers as well.

This I thoroughly agree with.
[/quote]

Overall, we are saying the same thing.

I’ll check out Sheiko. So many good programs out there, so little time…

As for the back comment, I didn’t say NOT to do back (SL 5x5 does have Bent over Rows). I’m saying that he should build a base before worrying about bodyparts that he “thinks” are not getting enough stimulation.

As far as training frequency, we are on the same boat. What I was saying is, if you can’t do the basic prescribed reps and/or sets, get on a simple program to get your strength up. or eat more?? The concept he is using, is from the '50’s. It is the low/med/high (I prefer the med/low/high) rep/set. You squat three times a week with alternate deadlifts and bench (this is one variation). Anyhoo, just for future reference, take care of your joints. High frequency at my age (47) is not a good way to train.

Good talk, thank you.

14

It’s unfair to compare Sheiko to the RWhipple program for a few reasons. 1) Sheiko does not have you 1RM your big three every week, for what should be obvious reasons. 2) To the extent you DL 3x a week on Sheiko, which is not the case from what I remember - but let’s assume it is for the sake of argument -, you are doing partials at lower intensities which is not comparable to a full ROM deadlift 3x a week at what I can only assume are maximal percentages for the given rep range. 3) Sheiko was developed by a world class russian powerlifting coach and has very specific %/sets/reps, etc. The RWhipple program was designed by RWhipple who has shown that he or she is too stubborn to adopt one of many proven powerlifting programs despite having a sub 800 total.

I don’t meant to rip on you OP, because at least you are trying and looking for feedback, but the only appropriate response to your post is that you need to drop the idea of programmimg your own routine and adopt one of the many already established PL programs. It doesn’t even need to be Starting strength! Sheiko, Westside, Texas Method, 5/3/1, etc. Literally any of these would be better than what you are doing, and I guarantee you would succeed on at least one of them.

15

One of the things i did to increase the upper back was to super ser EVERY pressing exercise with a upper back move. You can use pull ups ( these can be trained damn near everyday if you have a set of balls(look at the military) kroc row, face pulls, dm rows, pendlay rows whatever. Just make sure you watch the intensity. I saw you do unit pt so i am guessing you are in the military. So am i, god know their are pull up bar all over post. I usually pick a number lile 50 a day, and anytime i see a bar i crank them out. Dont over think this one.

16

You don’t need to sacrifice anything, provided that you’re actually only doing what you say on the list and are eating properly and sleeping properly.

Just do either BB or DB row on either your pull-up or deadlift day. I refuse to believe anyone who can bench over 200lb lacks the forearm strength to be able to do both rows and pull-up/deadlift on the same day.

Why aren’t you doing rows anyhow?