Where Are We Headed?

Off Topic
61

[quote]TShaw wrote:
When I see a thread where the OP’s goals and interests are clearly not mine, I leave the thread and look for something that matches my interests.

NO ONE says you have to coddle and comfort the newbies and jump on their threads and accept their goals.
NO ONE says you have to give them advice.
NO ONE says you have to pay them any attention.

We have been asked to just stop going out of our way to slam them. When they “get” that the community is into what the online magazine’s articles are about, they’ll adapt or leave.

And even if they outnumber me and my ilk, that doesn’t alter one whit the articles or the store or my goals. I’m within 5 pounds of 200–first time in my life; and that’s right: I’m actually bulking in the summer, not cutting–and no influx of 150-pound Emo kids can change what I intend to do.[/quote]

I feel the same way…and TShaw, hope you reach 200 soon! That’s an awesome accomplishment.

62

[quote]Mod Laurie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Mod Laurie wrote:
So, are you saying we should allow the newbies to post, get flamed, and let the strong survive? :slight_smile:

Wait, how do I use the type 40 Font.

YES!

Did that work?

No?

Damn.

Then why all the complaining about the Rate My Physique Forum? [/quote]

I don’t really care about that forum. But I will tell you that you type a few buzzwords into google. Things like “hot body” “rate me”, etc… and the top few entries are hotornot.com and T-Nation. That pretty well explains the element that comes here these days.

Personally, I think the internet is a free and open place, Pandora’s box has been open, and the cat’s out of the bag. And it’s never going back in. What TC said is right. I thought it was a good analogy. The drink menu may be the same, and there may be a few grizzled old veterans.

But the bar itself is overun with ‘yuppies’ and appletinis are everywhere. I don’t see that changing. The only solution would be a VIP section, cordoned off by a rope. In this case meaning a pay section where a small fee is charged.

But I’m not entirely sure that would change anything and I’m not sure I wouldn’t rather wade through the bullshit. Read the quality good articles. Ask any questions of the contributors or take part in the discussions about the articles and participate in the couple good discussions that catch my eye.

63

[quote]Lapo wrote:
Yeah, where are we headed? Peep this Finnish “irc-gallery” site out. T-Nation community:

It has two members. Does it reflect the average T-Nation reader?

Perhaps…[/quote]

what the hell? I dont get that…

64

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
robo1 wrote:
i know everyone has to start somewhere, but it just seems that more and more of these types of newbie threads are dominating the forums. there has to be a way to balance it out a bit more.

Someone posted a thread in the Supplements forum asking people to compare and contract Metabolic Drive and Surge. WTF?

When someone said, “Dude, read the articles associated with the products,” the OP got snarky. He, obviously being the CEO of GM, didn’t have time to read those articles. (More oddly, the OP had been registered on T-Mag for almost a year and had posted 150 times!)

I guess it comes down to this: Who are the “problem children”? Is is the people who refuse to do even remedial research before posting really stupid questions, or people who call them out on it?

As a matter of policy, the following would make the forums much cleaner: Any post about creatine, ZMA, surge, protein powder, etc., should be immediately re-directed into the Beginner’s forum. If you don’t know what creatine is, then you are a beginner - plain and simple.

The Beginner’s forum should be 100% flame free and a host for all of the ill-advised questions. If someone wants to ask whether drinking a scoop of protein powder before bedtime will destroy the chisel in his 6, 135 lb., physique, he should have a “safe place” to do so. But the rest of us should have “safe place” where we do not have to be subjected to such nonsense.

Also, there should be a separate forum for discussions of Biotest products. I get that if a newbie posts about creatine as if he’s asking about a cutting-edge product, Biotest wants these posts in: Maybe the dude will buy some Biotest creatine. That’s cool. I would never hate on Biotest for wanting to make money.

So Anyone who wants to ask for the one-thousandth time what ZMA is should post it in the Biotest forum. That way it won’t clutter the Supplements forum and it will also give Biotest people a chance to “sell” their products to the questioner by extolling the merits of their products and explaining what the products do.

Also, someone should send Phill a few cases of Metabolic Drive. The guy has the patience of a Zen master. Have him answer all the basic questions in the Biotest for Beginner forum.

I think making these changes would allow T-Nation to stay true to its hardcore roots while also expanding into the “Abercrombie crowd.”[/quote]

Yeah, that was me with the “Surge vs Metabolic Drive Complete” thread.

First off, I originally posted the thread IN THE BEIGINNERS FORUM BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS A NOOB QUESTION. I suppose the mod figured that since it was about supplements, it was better suited for the supps/nutrition forum.

Using your own logic, I should have been able to post that thread (and have it stay in the beginners forum) without having to worry about being “flamed”.

Furthermore, I did read the articles in the store, and I got the general impression that Surge was meant for post(and possibly pre) workout while Metabolic Drive Complete was more of a meal replacement. Which is what I was told on the forums, too.

However, this doesn’t tell me anyones personal experience with using both, or just one or the other.

Have some made better progress by having a quality meal replacement, or is post workout nutrition always more important?

Although I doubt it would work as well, wouldnt Metabolic Drive Complete be sufficient for a PWO shake?

Could Surge also be used in the mornings when our bodies are better suited for carbohydrates?

Which drink, given your goals, do you think is the most cost effective?

Granted, these questions arent just about Surge and Metabolic Drive Complete, but moreso about PWO and meal replacements in GENERAL. But its not as though these questions arent legitimate or are answered by the articles in the store.

Hence my decision to post the thread in the BEGINNERS forum.

By the way, on a more personal note, do me a favor and show me a few posts you’ve made that actually contribute to the quality of the site. I’m sure at some point you must have given someone some good advice, or shared some insight into the game, or brought up an interesting topic.

Because all I’ve seen from you, so far, is the usual e-cock waving of “I’m bigger, I’m stronger, I like to fight people” blah blah blah “I’m the lion who will eat the sheep”… thats why my response to you on the “Surge vs Metabolic Drive Complete” thread was “snarky”.

People who only come on the forums to put other people down and brag about themselves are as much “trolls” as the beginners who ask how to cut from 130 to 125.

So again, I ask, other than making yourself feel good, what good have your posts done for the site?

65

[quote]Professor X wrote:
burt128 wrote:
Here’s what I wonder: how many of the experienced lifters on this site started out wanting to “tone,” “get cut,” or the like? Or, did you start out wanting to get huge? What I’m trying to get at is, does the conversion from wanting to get cut to wanting to get huge ever really happen?

Most of the guys I’ve known who started out wanting to get cut never crossed over. I know when I started, I wanted to get huge from the beginning. I’m not there yet, mainly because the definition of what huge is keeps getting bigger the bigger I get. Just wondering if it’s doing any good to try and “convert” these people or if we’re just pissing up a rope.

I wanted to be big and strong. The specific weight at the time wasn’t the main issue. I just knew I needed to get close to or over 200lbs to look the way I wanted to and then diet down. Most of the guys I looked up to as a beginner were light heavies who competed…like Renel Janvier. That was my ideal. Considering what I weighed at the time, they were much bigger than me even though they competed at around 195-200lbs.

I think one of the major factors different from when I started is the ridiculously large number of obese teenagers. There may have been one fat kid in my whole class in high school. now, what used to pass for fat is now considered “normal”. There was no confusion about the fact that you had to eat a TON of food to make the type of progress I was after.

There was no fear of being unable to lose body fat like so many right now. Some of these guys act like if they gain 15lbs and 5-7lbs of that was fat, that they need to immediately start dieting down. They lose everything gained and then never make much progress.

I agree, most of the guys that worried about how “cut” they are won’t be making much progress. They never have and never will. They miss the basic desire to really push hard to gain some muscle mass and strength.[/quote]

You hit on an interesting topic here.

Part of the problem is that, like you said, a few decades ago everybody was thin, so the concept of “If I gain fat its going to be so hard to lose it” wasn’t on anyones mind.

Now its more normal for someone to be fat, so the prospect of gaining fat is more threatening.

As general food quality decreases, and the nation fattens up, its that much harder, now, for someone to lose the fat after a bulk. Its that much tighter their diet has to be, how much more restrictive their food choices become.

What do you think, Prof?

66

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

You hit on an interesting topic here.

Part of the problem is that, like you said, a few decades ago everybody was thin, so the concept of “If I gain fat its going to be so hard to lose it” wasn’t on anyones mind.

Now its more normal for someone to be fat, so the prospect of gaining fat is more threatening.

As general food quality decreases, and the nation fattens up, its that much harder, now, for someone to lose the fat after a bulk. Its that much tighter their diet has to be, how much more restrictive their food choices become.

What do you think, Prof?
[/quote]

I think it isn’t any harder to lose body fat right now than it was in the 80’s and 90’s. Just like I doubt the majority of the posters here even have a concept of “hard training”, I am sure their perception is their greatest hurdle when it comes to making physical progress.

Every single skinny newb who logs in thinks they are a “hardgainer”. If everyone is a “hardgainer”, doesn’t that mean no one is? People read everything from ONE author and then actually think they are informed. All they really have become are great contributors to book sales.

I doubt for a second that I would have gained as much muscle by approaching my training like some of these guys seem to be…wondering whether an extra cup of skim milk will derail all of their progress. It has gotten ridiculous. I don’t worry about “bulking up” because I know I can lose it later. It isn’t an issue as long as I maintain control and don’t go overboard. Too many think it is either one extreme or another.

I am just glad I started training just before this shit got out of hand. I also really don’t mind being one of the few who isn’t able to fit in women’s jeans…that are now sold in the men’s department.

67

http://www.google.com/search?q=rate+me&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B2DVFC_enUS218US220

T-Nation is on page 1 of results for “rate me”

68

[quote]Magnate wrote:
http://www.google.com/search?q=rate+me&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B2DVFC_enUS218US220

T-Nation is on page 1 of results for “rate me”[/quote]

I had to get to page 9 before I found T-Nation.com and the “FFB! Rate me homies” thread.

69

i only joined T-Nation a few months ago and i’ve already been lifting for a couple of years. THe kids who come on here and ask these questions that make you wanna beat them makes me think that they should get away from their computers and go to the gym,an actual gym where slayer and chalk dust are in the air and ask questions. thats what i had to do and getting reamed out in person made a much better impression than getting yelled at over the internet plus i learned a hell of a lot.

70

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
robo1 wrote:
i know everyone has to start somewhere, but it just seems that more and more of these types of newbie threads are dominating the forums. there has to be a way to balance it out a bit more.

Someone posted a thread in the Supplements forum asking people to compare and contract Metabolic Drive and Surge. WTF?

When someone said, “Dude, read the articles associated with the products,” the OP got snarky. He, obviously being the CEO of GM, didn’t have time to read those articles. (More oddly, the OP had been registered on T-Mag for almost a year and had posted 150 times!)

I guess it comes down to this: Who are the “problem children”? Is is the people who refuse to do even remedial research before posting really stupid questions, or people who call them out on it?

As a matter of policy, the following would make the forums much cleaner: Any post about creatine, ZMA, Surge, protein powder, etc., should be immediately re-directed into the Beginner’s forum. If you don’t know what creatine is, then you are a beginner - plain and simple.

The Beginner’s forum should be 100% flame free and a host for all of the ill-advised questions. If someone wants to ask whether drinking a scoop of protein powder before bedtime will destroy the chisel in his 6, 135 lb., physique, he should have a “safe place” to do so. But the rest of us should have “safe place” where we do not have to be subjected to such nonsense.

Also, there should be a separate forum for discussions of Biotest products. I get that if a newbie posts about creatine as if he’s asking about a cutting-edge product, Biotest wants these posts in: Maybe the dude will buy some Biotest creatine. That’s cool. I would never hate on Biotest for wanting to make money.

So Anyone who wants to ask for the one-thousandth time what ZMA is should post it in the Biotest forum. That way it won’t clutter the Supplements forum and it will also give Biotest people a chance to “sell” their products to the questioner by extolling the merits of their products and explaining what the products do.

Also, someone should send Phill a few cases of Metabolic Drive. The guy has the patience of a Zen master. Have him answer all the basic questions in the Biotest for Beginner forum.

I think making these changes would allow T-Nation to stay true to its hardcore roots while also expanding into the “Abercrombie crowd.”

Yeah, that was me with the “Surge vs Metabolic Drive Complete” thread.

First off, I originally posted the thread IN THE BEIGINNERS FORUM BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS A NOOB QUESTION. I suppose the mod figured that since it was about supplements, it was better suited for the supps/nutrition forum.

Using your own logic, I should have been able to post that thread (and have it stay in the beginners forum) without having to worry about being “flamed”.

Furthermore, I did read the articles in the store, and I got the general impression that Surge was meant for post(and possibly pre) workout while Metabolic Drive Complete was more of a meal replacement. Which is what I was told on the forums, too.

However, this doesn’t tell me anyones personal experience with using both, or just one or the other.

Have some made better progress by having a quality meal replacement, or is post workout nutrition always more important?

Although I doubt it would work as well, wouldnt Metabolic Drive Complete be sufficient for a PWO shake?

Could Surge also be used in the mornings when our bodies are better suited for carbohydrates?

Which drink, given your goals, do you think is the most cost effective?

Granted, these questions arent just about Surge and Metabolic Drive Complete, but moreso about PWO and meal replacements in GENERAL. But its not as though these questions arent legitimate or are answered by the articles in the store.

Hence my decision to post the thread in the BEGINNERS forum.

By the way, on a more personal note, do me a favor and show me a few posts you’ve made that actually contribute to the quality of the site. I’m sure at some point you must have given someone some good advice, or shared some insight into the game, or brought up an interesting topic.

Because all I’ve seen from you, so far, is the usual e-cock waving of “I’m bigger, I’m stronger, I like to fight people” blah blah blah “I’m the lion who will eat the sheep”… thats why my response to you on the “Surge vs Metabolic Drive Complete” thread was “snarky”.

People who only come on the forums to put other people down and brag about themselves are as much “trolls” as the beginners who ask how to cut from 130 to 125.

So again, I ask, other than making yourself feel good, what good have your posts done for the site?[/quote]

And how many threads and articles on this site are their discussing PWO nutrition, Surge, and Metabolic Drive in great detail?

71

[quote]texasguy wrote:
detazathoth wrote:
This is legit our version of the illegal immigration crisis with the newbies…scary shit.

and what happens to illegal immigrants? they work shitty jobs. they keep labor costs low which makes product cost low. they bring third world outsourcing home which also reduces shippings costs.

they also introduced what is quite possibly the worlds most delicious food.

some complications of immigration are bad, but some good comes out of new ideas, new people and new experiences too.

many of america’s greatest were immigrants. america was built on immigration. the strong immigrants made it what it is, the weak were the chaffe who did the menial shit.

you never know. some of these “newbs” may fall in love with training, learn a shit ton over time and school you on something one day.

you were born a crying baby with out a clue too. [/quote]

Word, I’m not banging on immigration, my parents are immigrants from Guatemala. I’m just saying drawing parallel from the huge influx of newbs, i.e. me coming to T-Nation, that’s all.

72

[quote]TShaw wrote:
Magnate wrote:
http://www.google.com/search?q=rate+me&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B2DVFC_enUS218US220

T-Nation is on page 1 of results for “rate me”

I had to get to page 9 before I found T-Nation.com and the “FFB! Rate me homies” thread.[/quote]

bottom of page 1 off the link i posted is another T-Nation thread

73

[quote]fightingtiger wrote:
And how many threads and articles on this site are their discussing PWO nutrition, Surge, and Metabolic Drive in great detail?[/quote]

That’s exactly the point. No one is saying, “Haha! You don’t know what Surge is!” or otherwise mocking ignorance. That would be wrong, and everyone was once ignorant; so no one has a problem with it, and indeed, are usually eager to help.

It’s just curious that people post as if a subject has never been discussed before. Also, it’s not like anyone is saying, “That was noted in Dec. 1999! How dare you not find that.” Rather, some things are treated as if they are unique every week or even month.

Indeed, some topics have been discussed so many times (Tanita scales come to mind) that it would actually be easier to run a search instead of posting.

It’s like people don’t want to put any work in. If no one wants to even put in a trivial amount of effort into finding a post, why should anyone assume those same people are going to put forth any effort in even applying what they are told.

74

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
fightingtiger wrote:
And how many threads and articles on this site are their discussing PWO nutrition, Surge, and Metabolic Drive in great detail?

That’s exactly the point. No one is saying, “Haha! You don’t know what Surge is!” or otherwise mocking ignorance. That would be wrong, and everyone was once ignorant; so no one has a problem with it, and indeed, are usually eager to help.

It’s just curious that people post as if a subject has never been discussed before. Also, it’s not like anyone is saying, “That was noted in Dec. 1999! How dare you not find that.” Rather, some things are treated as if they are unique every week or even month.

Indeed, some topics have been discussed so many times (Tanita scales come to mind) that it would actually be easier to run a search instead of posting.

It’s like people don’t want to put any work in. If no one wants to even put in a trivial amount of effort into finding a post, why should anyone assume those same people are going to put forth any effort in even applying what they are told.[/quote]

Because people want to look good but dont want to have to work or sacrifice it…

Thats why there are 135 lb kids afraid of eating anything bc they dont want to lose their abs, “lose weight overnight” diet pills, and those electrical ab stimulators.

Thats why people here spend more time trying to look up the perfect program than actually lifting weights and eating.

People look at this site less as an encyclopedia and more as an army of personal trainers who will answer any simple, minute question at the drop of a dime.

They dont want to look it up and learn for themselves, they want someone to tell them.

75

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
fightingtiger wrote:
And how many threads and articles on this site are their discussing PWO nutrition, Surge, and Metabolic Drive in great detail?

That’s exactly the point. No one is saying, “Haha! You don’t know what Surge is!” or otherwise mocking ignorance. That would be wrong, and everyone was once ignorant; so no one has a problem with it, and indeed, are usually eager to help.

It’s just curious that people post as if a subject has never been discussed before. Also, it’s not like anyone is saying, “That was noted in Dec. 1999! How dare you not find that.” Rather, some things are treated as if they are unique every week or even month.

Indeed, some topics have been discussed so many times (Tanita scales come to mind) that it would actually be easier to run a search instead of posting.

It’s like people don’t want to put any work in. If no one wants to even put in a trivial amount of effort into finding a post, why should anyone assume those same people are going to put forth any effort in even applying what they are told.[/quote]

So you now admit that just reading the fucking articles in the store would not have aptly satisfied my curiosity. We’re making some progress here.

Now your annoyance comes from the fact that I didn’t put enough time into reading through articles/forum posts to find the answer I was looking for.

Tell ya what, heres a challenge for you guys, Law and Tiger: Give yourself three or four sets of words I “should” have used to search on the forums, and look at the top 5 threads of each one.

If you find one that addresses the question of the importance of PWO nutrition VS the importance of quality meal replacements, where any of the posters share personal experience with using both, and compare the benefits of the two during different goal-oriented times… let me know. Kay?

Because I looked around a little, and I didn’t see any like that. Sure, there are ones about PWO nutrition. Its important. And there are ones about Metabolic Drive Complete. Saying its a good product, I should use it. But I didn’t see one asking the question of which one other posters would use if they had to choose between the two.

Certainly, CERTAINLY, if it would have been so easy for me to just read up a bit and get my answer, you guys should have no problem finding a thread that answers my questions.

If you can do that, I’ll sincerely apologize for wasting your time.

76

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Because I looked around a little, and I didn’t see any like that. Sure, there are ones about PWO nutrition. Its important. And there are ones about Metabolic Drive Complete. Saying its a good product, I should use it. But I didn’t see one asking the question of which one other posters would use if they had to choose between the two.
[/quote]

Because this is “either or”? Your question doesn’t even make much sense. If your goal is to gain, maybe, just maybe, you would go for more substantial calories than a specific protein shake. What if I’m dieting and choose to eat even less than that shake after training? What if I just plain don’t like Metabolic Drive shakes? Your “specific” question really just shows you need more experience, not that every single thought that pops into your head needs a specific answer to it.

Why wouldn’t you have thought of just some of the variables I listed? All you really saw in your head was “Metabolic Drive vs Post workout nutrition”? You do realize that just means what you eat after training? Do you understand that this would change depending on your goals, preferences or even what level of training you are at?

77

[quote]Professor X wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Because I looked around a little, and I didn’t see any like that. Sure, there are ones about PWO nutrition. Its important. And there are ones about Metabolic Drive Complete. Saying its a good product, I should use it. But I didn’t see one asking the question of which one other posters would use if they had to choose between the two.

Because this is “either or”? Your question doesn’t even make much sense. If your goal is to gain, maybe, just maybe, you would go for more substantial calories than a specific protein shake. What if I’m dieting and choose to eat even less than that shake after training? What if I just plain don’t like Metabolic Drive shakes? Your “specific” question really just shows you need more experience, not that every single thought that pops into your head needs a specific answer to it.

Why wouldn’t you have thought of just some of the variables I listed? All you really saw in your head was “Metabolic Drive vs Post workout nutrition”? You do realize that just means what you eat after training? Do you understand that this would change depending on your goals, preferences or even what level of training you are at?[/quote]

I posted it in the beginners forum because I knew it was a beginners question. I already explained that.

What I saw in my head was “Since I’m on a bit of a budget, would it make more sense for me to get Surge or Metabolic Drive Complete? I wonder what the other posters think of the two products, in comparison”

78

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

So you now admit that just reading the fucking articles in the store would not have aptly satisfied my curiosity. We’re making some progress here.

Now your annoyance comes from the fact that I didn’t put enough time into reading through articles/forum posts to find the answer I was looking for.

Tell ya what, heres a challenge for you guys, Law and Tiger: Give yourself three or four sets of words I “should” have used to search on the forums, and look at the top 5 threads of each one.

If you find one that addresses the question of the importance of PWO nutrition VS the importance of quality meal replacements, where any of the posters share personal experience with using both, and compare the benefits of the two during different goal-oriented times… let me know. Kay?

Because I looked around a little, and I didn’t see any like that. Sure, there are ones about PWO nutrition. Its important. And there are ones about Metabolic Drive Complete. Saying its a good product, I should use it. But I didn’t see one asking the question of which one other posters would use if they had to choose between the two.

Certainly, CERTAINLY, if it would have been so easy for me to just read up a bit and get my answer, you guys should have no problem finding a thread that answers my questions.

If you can do that, I’ll sincerely apologize for wasting your time. [/quote]

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

If you read that article and take the time to actually understand it, and then take the time to actually understand what the two prodcuts you are comparing are (which, btw, is as simple as looking up the nutrition facts), then you shouldnt have had a problem and shouldnt be here trying to cover your ass about it.

By the way, that was number three down the list on a search for “post workout nutrition”. Real fucking difficult.

79

How dare you come on a supplement company’s website and ask opinions on best usage of their supplements!

80

Time to unsubscribe from yet another thread…

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
How dare you come on a supplement company’s website and ask opinions on best usage of their supplements!

[/quote]