Where Are We Headed?

burt128 · May 27, 2007, 4:57pm

Here’s what I wonder: how many of the experienced lifters on this site started out wanting to “tone,” “get cut,” or the like? Or, did you start out wanting to get huge? What I’m trying to get at is, does the conversion from wanting to get cut to wanting to get huge ever really happen?

Most of the guys I’ve known who started out wanting to get cut never crossed over. I know when I started, I wanted to get huge from the beginning. I’m not there yet, mainly because the definition of what huge is keeps getting bigger the bigger I get. Just wondering if it’s doing any good to try and “convert” these people or if we’re just pissing up a rope.

Mad_Titan · May 27, 2007, 5:10pm

I wanted everything: cut, big, stamina and more important than the first two STRENGTH

[quote]burt128 wrote:
Here’s what I wonder: how many of the experienced lifters on this site started out wanting to “tone,” “get cut,” or the like? Or, did you start out wanting to get huge? What I’m trying to get at is, does the conversion from wanting to get cut to wanting to get huge ever really happen?

Most of the guys I’ve known who started out wanting to get cut never crossed over. I know when I started, I wanted to get huge from the beginning. I’m not there yet, mainly because the definition of what huge is keeps getting bigger the bigger I get. Just wondering if it’s doing any good to try and “convert” these people or if we’re just pissing up a rope.[/quote]

Professor_X · May 27, 2007, 6:10pm

[quote]burt128 wrote:
Here’s what I wonder: how many of the experienced lifters on this site started out wanting to “tone,” “get cut,” or the like? Or, did you start out wanting to get huge? What I’m trying to get at is, does the conversion from wanting to get cut to wanting to get huge ever really happen?

Most of the guys I’ve known who started out wanting to get cut never crossed over. I know when I started, I wanted to get huge from the beginning. I’m not there yet, mainly because the definition of what huge is keeps getting bigger the bigger I get. Just wondering if it’s doing any good to try and “convert” these people or if we’re just pissing up a rope.[/quote]

I wanted to be big and strong. The specific weight at the time wasn’t the main issue. I just knew I needed to get close to or over 200lbs to look the way I wanted to and then diet down. Most of the guys I looked up to as a beginner were light heavies who competed…like Renel Janvier. That was my ideal. Considering what I weighed at the time, they were much bigger than me even though they competed at around 195-200lbs.

I think one of the major factors different from when I started is the ridiculously large number of obese teenagers. There may have been one fat kid in my whole class in high school. now, what used to pass for fat is now considered “normal”. There was no confusion about the fact that you had to eat a TON of food to make the type of progress I was after.

There was no fear of being unable to lose body fat like so many right now. Some of these guys act like if they gain 15lbs and 5-7lbs of that was fat, that they need to immediately start dieting down. They lose everything gained and then never make much progress.

I agree, most of the guys that worried about how “cut” they are won’t be making much progress. They never have and never will. They miss the basic desire to really push hard to gain some muscle mass and strength.

Amsterdam_Animal · May 27, 2007, 6:20pm

I don’t disagree with the points you make but I don’t think I flamed him first of all. Second, I told him I liked his attitude. Third, I told him what I would have want an experienced lifter to tell me when I was a noob.

I have seen many people come and go. Some were more serious and dedicated for longer than the OP and fizzled out in the end. I hope the OP is different and I want to see him succeed. If you read anything else in my post, you were mistaken.

A

[quote]Mad Titan wrote:
Amsterdam Animal…would you rather see him complain about his abs weighing 134lbs? the point is the guy seem to be one of the few people who get it…so no need to flame him noob or not. Besides who give s a damn about his weight…when you focus on one aspect (weight) and not take into account other aspects i.e. strength…it makes you 1 dimensional.

Myself at 181 I’m willing to bet I’m just as strong maybe stronger than half the people here who weigh over 200lbs…no I’m not talking about that pound for pound bull crap. Too many people here place emphasis on just weight and not strength…so now you have a lot people walking around 200, 200+ with nothing to show for it in the strength department.

Weight means nothing if you don’t have the strength to back it …its akin to driving a corvette with a 4 cylinder engine. my point here is 2 fold

If noob’s mind is in the right place …i.e. the guy who wrote the post don’t flame him… encourage him/her

2)just because a guy doesn’t weigh 200 lbs doesn’t mean he’s any less knowledgeable

Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Lol, sorry my man but this makes me laugh. I like your attitude and you make some good points but for now I think you should work on putting in your time into this great iron game. Do you really expect people to take you serious? You have been lifting for 2 years and weigh all of 175.

Everyone has to start somewhere and I was once 175 but I did not get so worked up when I really had nothing to show for whatsoever. So proof me wrong and show you are different from these same posers you talk about. Put in your time, pay your dues and show us some progress. Good luck and train hard.

A

fightingtiger wrote:
I was going to post this on the thread in the beginners forum where some kid is yelling about everyone hating on him because he thinks Ryan Reynolds has a very aesthetic physique and that people shouldnt be hating on him on a bodybuilding website since “not everyone wants to be 250 lbs of useless mass”. I received a reply from the moderator saying my message had not been posted because it was too inflammatory for the beginners forum.

Here is my post:

"Things like this thread piss people off because it shows where T-Nation is headed:

a website where kids suck each others cocks for being 155 lbs instead of 150 and where being 185 means youre pretty much the authority on gaining. A website where kids argue endlessly over whether or not creatine is a steroid, leg extensions build more mass than squats, and exactly how many situps you have to do to get a six pack. a website where being able to see your abs means so much more than being able to see any other muscles on you body.

there has been an influx of new members here and the maority of them have been immigrants from that other site. That is why this is happening, and that is why people get pissed off when new guys post pictures of Ryan Reynolds talking about how “aesthetic” he is. Ryan Reynolds is not aesthetic. Frank Zane, Dave Henry, Stan Mcquay, and Reg Park are aesthetic.

This is a bodybuilding website. What use is it to build something if its not going to be strong?"

I understand TC doesnt want to scare the newbs off and I agree that some of the bullshit that goes on on this website is too much, but at the same time, I feel that fostering a mediocre mindset on this website is going to lead to the sort of stagnant wasteland that bb.com has become.

This is the problem with a lot of whats going on in our culture lately…mediocrity and laziness have consumed us. We want the best results we can get without having to work for them. We want to take a pill before we go to bed to lose weight and get a six pack while we work at our desks. The 170 lbs six pack physique has become our society’s Greek ideal. And well spend all of the money on earth to achieve that ideal, as long as we dont have to actually expend any effort.

/rant.

[/quote]

Amsterdam_Animal · May 27, 2007, 6:30pm

I also wanted to get big and strong when I first started out. This developed over time to wanting to be as big, strong and as lean as possible naturally.

I agree with what the prof says when it comes to people dieting down way too quickly and people being too concerned about gaining a little bit of fat.

I also think that people’s progress is limited to what they think is and is not possible. Since when did it become impossible to gain weight and stay lean at the same time? Clean bulking is what I advocate. Even at 270 plus my abs were visible. It takes a lot of time, effort and dedication to achieve that but it certainly is not impossible or beyond anyone’s capability.

It just doesnt happen overnight. The iron game is not subject to instant gratification. This shit takes time. When people start to realize that Rome wasnt built in a day then maybe we can cut out some of the bs on this site and in our gyms in general.

A

[quote]burt128 wrote:
Here’s what I wonder: how many of the experienced lifters on this site started out wanting to “tone,” “get cut,” or the like? Or, did you start out wanting to get huge? What I’m trying to get at is, does the conversion from wanting to get cut to wanting to get huge ever really happen?

Most of the guys I’ve known who started out wanting to get cut never crossed over. I know when I started, I wanted to get huge from the beginning. I’m not there yet, mainly because the definition of what huge is keeps getting bigger the bigger I get. Just wondering if it’s doing any good to try and “convert” these people or if we’re just pissing up a rope.[/quote]

TC1 · May 27, 2007, 7:33pm

[quote]texasguy wrote:
fightingtiger wrote:
texasguy wrote:

yeah but if the kids are buying the products pushed by the 185 lb and 155 lb kids, Biotest is happy and your opinions don’t really matter if they are making money.

Biotest is a business and T-Nation is an advertising medium. successful business change with their markets.

Successful businesses often do not alienate the clients that made them successful in the first place. Especially when that group is not shrinking and will not leave as long as the product retains its quality. The crowd that they seem to be changing to suit now are those that will not be ordering in the next 6 months, because they have not achieved the instant success that they had hoped for and have given up.

they are not alienating you. they are expanding their market share. you are already a loyal customer so they don’t worry about you so much.

it is kind of like buying a cell phone or anything with a contract.

when you first buy a phone, all the companies offer great deals on phones as long as you sign a contract. after that, you spend $300 for a phone because they have you. when your contract is up and you are free to go with who ever you want,they give you special prices again, but only if you resign your contract.

there are no contracts with Biotest, but they have already succussfully marketed their products to you.

you feel they make a superior product, you feel it does what you want and you buy it.

these kids are new and Biotest is after their money too.

it makes sense they spend more time on fresh faces than people who already buy there shit.

and they still give you your forums, your posts, articles you can enjoy etc to keep you interested.

should they be giving you a pacifier and some cheese with your wine too?[/quote]

Spend more time on fresh faces?

This is what gets me.

Have I changed the tone or content of the articles?

No.

Do I even read or answer the beginner’s thread?

No.

Do I post atta-boys on the Rate My Physique thread?

No.

Do I even look at the Rate My Physique feature unless it’s a babe or a guy who scored over a 7?

No.

I just wrote this another thread, but some of you guys remind me of a paranoid wife or girlfriend who keeps telling her loyal husband, over and over again, “I just KNOW you’re going to cheat on me?”

Well baby, it ain’t happened yet, so relax and make your life and my llfe easier.

CaliforniaLaw · May 27, 2007, 7:48pm

[quote]TC wrote:
but some of you guys remind me of a paranoid wife or girlfriend who keeps telling her loyal husband, over and over again, “I just KNOW you’re going to cheat on me?”[/quote]

Now that’s funny.

Aragorn · May 27, 2007, 8:25pm

[quote]Mod Laurie wrote:
Majin wrote:
I can’t believe there are still cries of how badly the newbies are treated. This is a bodybuilding site and it needs to be made clear. If anything, the bashing should be encouraged! How else can we ‘rub off’ on A MAJORITY!?

Because if you follow those same threads on a regular basis, you know that people who truly want to learn do stick around and listen. Yes, even through the bashing. It’s the internet for shit’s sake! Or what, is the site getting emails with complaints?

Most of the complaints are that we ALLOW newbies to post questions and photos.

So, are you saying we should allow the newbies to post, get flamed, and let the strong survive? :)[/quote]

Yes, exactly. That is what happened to me when I was a newb. Here.

Aragorn · May 27, 2007, 8:37pm

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:

Also, someone should send Phill a few cases of Metabolic Drive. The guy has the patience of a Zen master. Have him answer all the basic questions in the Biotest for Beginner forum.
[/quote]

You know, for once I really really agree with you. I’ve spent a lot of time in the Beginner’s forum trying to give the most patient best advice I can, but I haven’t been there for probably more than a month. I can’t take it anymore. I mean, I think I’m just going to start flaming people out to thin the herd.

Kidding. Kind of. Phill just keeps going and going. He may be up for T-Nation sainthood, along with Tampa Terry, who used to have that role.

Someone get him on the payroll…or at least give him a lifelong endorsement of Biotest goodies.

Stronghold · May 27, 2007, 8:45pm

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Mod Laurie wrote:
Majin wrote:
I can’t believe there are still cries of how badly the newbies are treated. This is a bodybuilding site and it needs to be made clear. If anything, the bashing should be encouraged! How else can we ‘rub off’ on A MAJORITY!?

Because if you follow those same threads on a regular basis, you know that people who truly want to learn do stick around and listen. Yes, even through the bashing. It’s the internet for shit’s sake! Or what, is the site getting emails with complaints?

Most of the complaints are that we ALLOW newbies to post questions and photos.

So, are you saying we should allow the newbies to post, get flamed, and let the strong survive?

Yes, exactly. That is what happened to me when I was a newb. Here.[/quote]

Either the site needs to be less tolerant of stupidity as a whole, or the mods should begin redirecting dumb posts into the beginners section or pm’ing posters who are asking a quesiton that is easily answered through a simple search telling them to do just that. Maybe if there were more specific stickies at the top of forums, then a lot of the dumb questions would disappear.

I dont know who thought it would be a good idea to post a thread called “Should I train my arms directly?” in the Bodybuilding forum rather than the Beginners section.

Stronghold · May 27, 2007, 8:48pm

Btw, thanks for weighing in on this, TC. It seems that you are posting around the boards more often lately and I think thats a good thing.

The more experienced posters we have around here, the more people there are for the less experienced, such as myself, to learn from.

And yeah, Phil and TT should get some free swag. They do a lot around here.

slimjim · May 27, 2007, 8:55pm

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I say just flame the shit out of them. It is, after all, the fucking internet… if they really cry about it, they got more problems than just being skinny.
[/quote]

By the same token, it could be argued that they should be allowed to post their pictures or their threads about being Brad Pitt in Fight Club, and so on.

As this site has grown there have been growing pains, the mods and administrators have had to try a precarious balancing act which at times has angered both sides of the spectrum. T-Nation seems to have virtually exploded from a membership standpoint, back in the day there would be like 10 guys posting on the forum and most of the posts from non-regulars were guys trying to find a source.

There are always threads that I won’t venture near, and the rate my physique section is one I won’t peruse unless I see someone with an exceptionally low rating because I know that the guy is probably getting ripped on and there always seems to be some entertaining debates going on.

However, it has gotten a lot more repetitive of late. Its not that it isn’t a big deal, but that I guess I’ve become a bit more desensitized to it. We’ve all seen the “I’m 150 lbs and I’ve been lifting for 5 years but I just can’t gain any weight” threads at least a hundred times on here.

jtrinsey · May 27, 2007, 9:33pm

[quote]fightingtiger wrote:

or the mods should begin redirecting dumb posts into the beginners section or pm’ing posters who are asking a quesiton that is easily answered through a simple search telling them to do just that. [/quote]

I think this would be a good idea. Give the mods a little more freedom to move posts to the Beginner forum.

Laurie · May 27, 2007, 9:34pm

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Mod Laurie wrote:
So, are you saying we should allow the newbies to post, get flamed, and let the strong survive?

Yes, exactly. That is what happened to me when I was a newb. Here.[/quote]

And look how well you turned out.

anon31651765 · May 27, 2007, 9:50pm

[quote]Irish Muscle wrote:

boobs[/quote]

Exactly.

system · May 28, 2007, 12:21am

[quote]TC wrote:
texasguy wrote:
fightingtiger wrote:
texasguy wrote: