What's Wrong with My Program?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1 
 I have been bodyweight training for the last four years, and I believe I am progressing much slower than I should be.  I have gained five pounds of lean muscle over these past four  years, which I believe is hardly anything.  I understand the principles for both hypertrophy and strength gains, but I find it hard to apply to bodyweight training.  So, Iâ??m going to outline my workouts, and I would appreciate feedback regarding the flaws of my program, and explanations as to why Iâ??m not making the gains Iâ??d like to see.

PRs:
-Standard Push Up = 46 (I have PRd 94 push ups, but I was doing them with my hands very wide apart, and I wasnâ??t touching my chest to the ground. Recently, I changed my form to hands a little bit wider than shoulders, and making sure my chest hits the deck.)
-Pull Ups = 18
-Muscle Ups = 9
-Pistols = 17L/18R

Iâ??m honestly not that displeased with these PRs, but the progress has been very slow.  And Iâ??m mainly frustrated that I basically havenâ??t gained any weight or size.  Iâ??m 5â??10â?? @ 147lbs.

Program:
**Everything I do is AMRAP, with 1min between sets. I was doing a 30sec rest between sets for 3 years, and recently switched to 1 minute rests.

Monday- Chest/Triceps (30 Minute workout)
-Standard Push Ups â?? Attempt PR
-After this, I will basically just do as many sets of pushup variations or dip variations for AMRAP, 30 sec rests between sets, for 30 minutes. Movements include 1 arm pushups, plyo pushups, plyo dips, slow eccentrics, pyramids, anything really.

Tuesday- Legs
-Pistols â?? Attempt PR
-Again, after the PR attempt, I do as many sets as I can of AMRAP of various leg movements for 30 minutes, such as pistols, squats, jump squats, jump lunges, etc.

Wednesday â?? Rest

Thursday â?? Back/Biceps
-I will either start with attempting a pull up PR or a muscle up PR. I alternate each week.
-Pull up variations, AMRAP, 30sec rest, as many sets as I can within 30 minutes.

Friday â?? Shoulders
-L Sit Press to Handstand â?? Attempt PR
-Then I do handstand balance and freestanding handstand pushup work. Iâ??ll finish with wall handstand pushups sometimes

So my questions come into play with reps, sets, and rest intervals.  Iâ??ll refer to the pullup workouts.  When I max out on pullups on the first set, and get 18 reps, I rest 60 seconds.  If I follow up with 3 more sets of pullups, my reps drop to only 5-7 reps.  Even if I wait 2 minutes, I might only be able to do 1 more rep, if that.  So if Iâ??m doing 6 reps, with 60sec rest intervals, and say I do that for 30 minutes, wouldnâ??t that be a high volume to gain hypertrophy?  My guess is no because the reps are not in the 8-12 range, so my time under tension isnâ??t high enough.  So, my reps are more in the strength range, especially if Iâ??m doing wide pullups (4-5 reps).  

Take pushups as a good example for hypertrophy.  Say I set a new PR, itâ??s usually only by a few reps.  So I max out my first set of pushups at 46, then after resting 1 min, I can hit about 15, and then after every minute rest between sets, I rep about 12 pushups.  Wouldnâ??t that be in the perfect range for hypertrophy?  30 minutes of 12 â?? 15 reps of pushups with 1 minute rest between sets should be ideal volume for hypertrophy, yet I donâ??t gain size.

Why arenâ??t I gaining more strength with doing sets where my AMRAP is in the strength range?  I feel like the load of bodyweight doesnâ??t fall into either strength or hypertrophy parameters, and Iâ??m just confused as to why my results are so limited.  I feel like I should be able to do at least 25 pullups, 15 muscle ups, and 100 pushups with 4 years of bodyweight training.

I know I eat enough, about 3k calories a day.  Setting PRs slowly is okay, but I just am not sure why Iâ??m not seeing size gains.  Guys like Barstarzz, BarBrothers, and those extreme calisthenics guys are all pretty big, and it seems like they just do mad pushups and pullup variations.  I train hard, and go all out for each set, so I feel like something just isnâ??t adding up.
2

Why are you only doing bodyweight exercises? Add some external load, whether it’s a vest, chains, KB/DB/BB, whatever…

As far as why you’re not progressing?

  1. You’re blowing your wad on the first set, leaving the remaining sets to suffer. Try leaving a few in the tank each set so you can get more reps in each subsequent set. Take pushups, for example:

Set 1 - 30 reps
Set 2 - 25 reps (since you didn’t work to failure on set 1, you should be able to get more on set 2)
Set 3 - 20 reps (same as above)

  1. Using your bodyweight only (at a light BW), the standard hypertrophy range doesn’t work. There’s just not enough resistance. Your body’s become really good at moving the same load year after year. Add some external resistance.

  2. If you’re not gaining weight, you’re not eating enough. What’s a typical day’s intake look like?

3

The whole strength/hypertrophy ranges are based on the fact that that’s the maximum number of reps you can do for a given weight.

So if you’re trying to stay in the 8-12 range… you shouldn’t be able to do more than 8-12 reps at that weight. It’s not about the number of reps themselves as is the number of reps performed with a given load.

Also, I really think you’re selling yourself short sticking with bodyweight only training. I say that based on having spent so much time on them myself. It took some time soul-searching before I realized what I really wanted was to just look better. And then it still took awhile before I got myself training sensibly with barbells. I’d worked up to doing sessions of 300 pushups and 300 situps every other day, and not really happy with my results.

Two days ago, just out of curiosity, I went and did a set of chest to the deck pushups just to see if I could still do them. Got 45 before I decided to stop, but probably could have done another 10 or 15 if I was really trying. I found it interesting that I could still do that after not having really done any pushups for a couple years.

4

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but could you just explain to me why “leaving more in the tank” on my first set would be beneficial? Am I going all out on the subsequent sets after that? I figured if I go all out on every set, that would promote the most stimulus to tear down muscle fibers, leading to growth.

5

[quote]DeltaCypher0 wrote:
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but could you just explain to me why “leaving more in the tank” on my first set would be beneficial? Am I going all out on the subsequent sets after that? I figured if I go all out on every set, that would promote the most stimulus to tear down muscle fibers, leading to growth.[/quote]

I don’t have the time to explain why not… but no, it doesn’t really work like that.

EDIT: basically it comes down to depleting the various energy systems, and the amount of time it takes to replenish each of them.

Even something as simple as do a rep, rest 10 seconds, do another rep, repeat will allow you to get more reps before you run out of gas than just going straight through. When I say rest, I mean complete rest, not plank at the top of the pushup for a bit.

Play with the amount of reps you do each miniset and the rests (start with maybe 5-10 reps, rest 10-15 seconds), and you should find that you’re able to do more work overall.

6

Lorez, what kind of resultd were you not happy with?

7

Without external loading you are never going to get big and muscular.

You r thought process being doing sets of 12-15 push-ups is totally flawed. Do you think anyone in the history of ever got big off of doing sets of 12 body weight push-ups? If you can do 96 straight push-ups then sets of 12 isn’t going to do anything.

If you are totally stuck on BW exercises for some reason than invest in a weight vest or, at a minimum, a backpack that you can fill with sandbags.

You need external load for the type of hypertrophy that you’re looking for.

8

[quote]DeltaCypher0 wrote:
I have been bodyweight training for the last four years, and I believe I am progressing much slower than I should be. I have gained five pounds of lean muscle over these past four years, which I believe is hardly anything. I understand the principles for both hypertrophy and strength gains, but I find it hard to apply to bodyweight training. So, I’m going to outline my workouts, and I would appreciate feedback regarding the flaws of my program, and explanations as to why I’m not making the gains I’d like to see.
[/quote]
No you’re progressing exactly as slowly as you should be, because that’s all you should expect from bodyweight exercises. I’m not sure you do understand the principles of hypertrophy or strength gains. If you did you would not be confused as to why bodyweight exercises aren’t eliciting either. The biggest problem with your program is that you aren’t lifting weights.

[quote]DeltaCypher0 wrote:
Take pushups as a good example for hypertrophy. Say I set a new PR, it’s usually only by a few reps. So I max out my first set of pushups at 46, then after resting 1 min, I can hit about 15, and then after every minute rest between sets, I rep about 12 pushups. Wouldnâ??t that be in the perfect range for hypertrophy? 30 minutes of 12 - 15 reps of pushups with 1 minute rest between sets should be ideal volume for hypertrophy, yet I don’t gain size.
[/quote]
Again, I’m not sure you understand what those “rep ranges” really mean. 46 reps is not the rep range for anything. All that does is build endurance and lactic acid tolerance. What you’re doing is completely exhausting yourself and then doing reps in the “hypertrophy rep range” simply because you’re so fatigued. That’s not how it works. The 10-12 rep range works when you go in and do like 4 sets of 12.

If you were to do only 4 sets of 12 pushups, what would that feel like? Ridiculously easy? That’s because pushups are garbage for hypertrophy and it’s too light to produce an adaptive response in your body no matter how much pre-exhaustion in which you engage.

[quote]DeltaCypher0 wrote:
I know I eat enough, about 3k calories a day. Setting PRs slowly is okay, but I just am not sure why I’m not seeing size gains. Guys like Barstarzz, BarBrothers, and those extreme calisthenics guys are all pretty big, and it seems like they just do mad pushups and pullup variations. I train hard, and go all out for each set, so I feel like something just isnâ??t adding up.
[/quote]
Are you doing the kinds of variations they are doing? Are you copying their parameters? I imagine they do more consistent volume such as 10 sets of 10 pullups or 10 sets of 20 dips and things of that nature. Genetics also play a bit of a factor in how easily one builds muscle. Also a few of those guys may or may not be doing some other things you’re not… But honestly most of those dudes aren’t even that big, they’re just lean and muscular. You already look lean and muscular. If you want to get bigger, you need to push some iron.

That is the bottom line and the foundation of the progressive overload principle. If all you ever do is lift your bodyweight, your body is only going to adapt as much as it has to to accomplish that task. You’re essentially someone who goes to the gym and lifts the exact same weight every single time. There is no stimulus. Once your body has gotten good enough at moving that weight (your bodyweight) it has zero incentive to progress any further.

Building muscle is energy expensive. Your body doesn’t want to do it. You must force it to do so by making the alternative more painful. In other words you need to start loading it with heavy weights.

9

[quote]DeltaCypher0 wrote:
Lorez, what kind of resultd were you not happy with?[/quote]

Strength and size. Endurance was good.

But… I wasn’t getting any stronger, or any bigger. I thought the more I did, or the longer I did them, the bigger and stronger I’d get. That didn’t happen.

10

Word, thanks for the input, everyone.

If I wanted to keep increasing my bodyweight rep PRs on pushups, pullups, muscle ups, and pistols, how would I incorporate bodyweight training into weightlifting? When should I check my max repetitions, if going all out on the first set exhausts my energy system? Would I integrate pistols on days I train legs? Or should I keep the bodyweight movements all to one day of training, and then strength train with only weights on other days?

11

[quote]DeltaCypher0 wrote:
Word, thanks for the input, everyone.

If I wanted to keep increasing my bodyweight rep PRs on pushups, pullups, muscle ups, and pistols, how would I incorporate bodyweight training into weightlifting? When should I check my max repetitions, if going all out on the first set exhausts my energy system? Would I integrate pistols on days I train legs? Or should I keep the bodyweight movements all to one day of training, and then strength train with only weights on other days?
[/quote]
Why do you care about body weight rep PR’s? Just too know how many you can do? Why do you want to continuously check your max reps?

12

Is your goal push-up reps, or muscle growth? You are at a point where those two are pretty much two different rabbits to chase. You have been chasing the push-ups up til now, thats why you havent caught the other one.

My honest suggestion, drop BW stuff entirely for a few months, get on a good weight training program and see if you like your results. Even if you are stuck on those BW rep PRs (I dont see the problem here, PLers are obsessed with 1RM), I bet you come back with just as many reps, if not more. How many push-ups do you think 400# benchers can do?

13

Well, I believe some bodyweight movements are essential for a functional and athletic body. Especially muscle ups.

14

[quote]DeltaCypher0 wrote:
Well, I believe some bodyweight movements are essential for a functional and athletic body. Especially muscle ups. [/quote]

Kid, you’re your own worst enemy. Several people have answered your question and tried to help you, and you respond with arguing, flawed logic and a complete misunderstanding of how the body works. I personally think pushups and bodyweight work are fucking awesome, but they work best in conjunction with the weightroom, not at the expense of it. Also, 46 max pushups for 4 years of focus is pretty bad. You should be well over double that. Getting stronger through the weightroom will get you there, real quick.

15

You have to be willing to challenge your own ideas on training when asking for training advice. Some very good points have been raised so far.
The reality is that you do not understand the “principles for both hypertrophy and strength gains” and that you’re stuck in some unrealistic belief system around bodyweight training. So listen to what more experienced people tell you, educate yourself properly and challenge your beliefs and ideas concerning (bodyweight) training.

The reason you’re not getting any bigger and stronger is because you’re mostly training your endurance with a light bodyweight on a ridiculously low training frequency. Pretty much the only thing you’re doing with once a week pull ups AMAP (and no other related exercises for the rest of the week) is maintaining a basic strength and endurance in the pull ups. I’m surprised you even managed to progress on that (who knows, you might be an easy gainer?)

I can easily bang out more pull ups than you, even though I NEVER train in that range (because it’s too light, boring as fuck and only gets me tired and not strong). Here’s what I’m currently (approximately) doing to increase my pull up strength:
mon, 2-8 deadlift (fat bar) work-max singles
8 sets of 2 reps weighted pull ups, working up to 8x3 (at 8x3 increase weight to 8x2)
rock climbing
tues, 5 sets of 8-10 reps weighted pull ups (less weight than mon obviously)
5 sets of 8-10 reps horizontal pull ups
thu, 2-8 sets deadlift (fat bar) work-max doubles
8 sets of 2 reps weighted pull ups, working up to 8x3 (at 8x3 increase weight to 8x2)
rock climbing
fri, 5 sets of 8-10 reps weighted pull ups (less weight than mon obviously)
5 sets of 8-10 reps horizontal pull ups

Every 2-3 weeks I deload (mainly for my fingers, the above does not include my grip and other training)
I just hit some work maxes on everything for only a few sets each, depending on how I feel, and keep the climbing light or I skip it. If I don’t feel refreshed the next week I’ll add a second deload week, I’ve learned from experience that’ll keep most injuries away (again, this is mostly for my fingers and grip, I’ve never had any issues with my pulling strength on this schedule).

I hope this gives you some ideas on how to expand your training. A simple weight belt and a heavy-ass barbell can make all the difference while providing a controlled increase in intensity.
Oh, and make sure you eat lots of protein :slight_smile:

16

I definitely feel all of you, and I appreciate the input. I know I’ve been being stubborn about my training methods, and I’m gonna switch up to hitting some iron. I’ma gonna look through the workout sections on the site and steal some ideas. I’ll post the program I devise, and I’d love to hear more feedback. Thanks people.

17

sorry, my previous post got posted by accident while I was only half way through it. I added the rest.

18

Okay, I’ve been reading up on some of the workouts here. So here are a few questions, obviously I’m going to be new to lifting weights, so should I do a strength program like an A/B 5x5 stronglifts, or something along the lines of 5/3/1? Im leaning more towards 5x5, because I want to get stronger, and I’m not really too concerned about gaining size. I figure I’ll add some mass anyways with a 5x5 program. So here’s what I was thinking for the program, basically just the 5x5 strong man…

But first, I have a questions about the 5x5 scheme. Am I using the same weight for all 5 sets?

Workout A:
-Front Squat 5x5
-Bench Press 5x5
-Deadlift 5x5
-Hanging Pikes (Toes to Bar) 3xAMRAP for core work
(Would it be a bad idea to finish the workout with a set of AMRAP push ups, and a set of AMRAP pistols? Just for some extra volume and to keep those bodyweight movements fresh)

Workout B:
-Back Squat 5x5
-Overhead Press 5x5
-Bent Over Row 5x5
-Hanging Wipers 3xAMRAP for core work
(Would it be a bad idea to finish the workout with a set of AMRAP pullups or muscle ups?)

Also, I saw the article regarding “World’s Simplest Training Template”, and it said that you have to focus on either mobility/flexibility, strength/hypertrophy, and conditioning, but to always incorporate all three. This article made a lot of sense to me, and I always do mobility work when I wake up everyday, so that’s fine how it is. But, I was wondering where I should throw in conditioning. I was thinking about doing intervals of sprints, prowlers, or burpees. Should I do that for like 15 minutes on off days, or should I throw that in at the end of each workout for 5-10 minutes?

I know everyone has told me to forget about bodyweight stuff for right now, and focus on getting stronger by lifting weights, but I figured one set of a bodyweight exercise at the end of a workout can’t be bad, and would just be supplemental. I know I’m gonna get flack for the next question, but the fact is that I’m really gonna find it hard to completely cut out bodyweight movements out of my life.

So, how do y’all think about me doing random sets throughout the day after my main workout of various bodyweight movements? Again, this would just be supplemental work, and I wouldn’t really be doing it as a second workout, but I don’t see how it could be a negative thing to do a set of muscle ups in my garage before I get in the car.

All my friends have been on my ass about getting into the gym and moving the barbell, but I’ve always been stubborn about it. But hearing everyone’s input on hear has helped facilitate in convincing myself that it’s what I need to do to grow stronger, so thank you. Sometimes you just need to hear it from strangers. So let me know what y’all think, and I’ll post this as a new thread in the forum as well.

19

If you’re new to lifting I wouldn’t start with both front squats and back squats. Better to just do back squats and develop good form before adding in front squats.

I would suggest buying Rippetoe’s Starting Strength (free app “Kindle for computer”, $10 for the ebook) to help you with technique. For other ideas with programming you could also get Wendler’s 5/3/1 (starting strength has the 5x5 programming in it as well).

In 5x5 you would use the same weight on each set. The original idea comes from Doug Hepburn. He would do 5 sets of 3 reps and slowly add reps until he could do 5x5, then he would increase the weight and start with 5x3 again. Read Starting Strength and see what Rippetoe recommends (might be different from Hepburn’s method).

No problem to add conditioning on non-weight training days. But don’t go too fanatic on this because it might hamper weight gain (you’re quite light to begin with) 3x 30 min a week is plenty (the weight training also conditions you)
No problem to add some bodyweight “finishers” into your training.

Since you’ve done AMAP for a bunch of years already maybe try something else, for example 3-5 set of 10 pull ups instead of 1 set of AMAP. Try not to squeeze the last rep out on these sets (so leave one in the tank on each set) except for the last set.
Random bodyweight sets throughout the day are not necessary and may interfere with your progress (you need rest to grow) and I have a feeling that you’re still having trouble letting go.

You won’t lose your current progress so don’t feel like you need to check that constantly. Backing off will probably only do you good and you need to learn that through experience, so back off from the endurance stuff. You could run through a skillset once a week or so and that should be enough (especially if you’re adding bodyweight finishers)

And please use gymnastic rings for things like muscle ups and dips if you like to keep healthy shoulders (remember you’re trying to gain weight which also means more pressure on your shoulders)

Don’t forget to eat more.

20

grippit, so am I supposed to start with 5x3 and progress to 5x5, then increase weight? Or is the modern program just 5x5 and try to increase weight each week and hit the prescribed reps?

Also, what are the rest intervals supposed to be? 2-3 minutes?