What's Safer, PH or AAS?

Pharma / TRT
1

iv been thinking of doing a ph cycle for a while but now im thinking maybe test i know a lot more about ph’s but i feel AAS might be a better safer route that i can maintain more gains so this is the ph cycle i had set up and this is the AAS cycle that iv just started researching and this is an outline from this sight yes also i have 7 years of training natural and have a very good diet and workout routine which i am extremely dedicated too will show progress pic if needed

so what do you guys think is safer over all a cycle of h-drol like this
h-drol
50/75/75/75/75

support sups
NAC and liv52
(possible saw pawlameto)
hawthorn berry

PCT
nolva
30/20/10/10/5
bioforge

or an AAS cycle like this

Cycle Plan
Week 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
Week 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week) Optional Ancilliaries

incase of any issues
Week 1-12 Nolva 20mg/d if gyno symptoms start to show
Week 1-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w if you are having prolactin issues
Week 3-10 HCG 250iu 3x/w prevent nuts from shrinking make recovery easier

PCT
Week 13 Nolva 20mg 2x/d
Week 14-16 Nolva 20mg/d with getting your hormones back to normal like which cycle would have a greater toll on the hormone production

2

Age? Weight/Height? Lifting stats?

3

A cycle of testosterone is going to be far safer than halodrol. If you have access to test then don’t bother with the PH.

4

[quote]bbh90 wrote:

Week 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week) Optional Ancilliaries

incase of any issues
Week 1-12 Nolva 20mg/d if gyno symptoms start to show
Week 1-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w if you are having prolactin issues
Week 3-10 HCG 250iu 3x/w prevent nuts from shrinking make recovery easier

[/quote]

If gyno becomes an issue, why not just increase the adex dose-leave the nolva for PCT. Adex will work much better and faster. Also, You more than likely will not need the caber with test only. Good to have it on hand but most people use it when running a 19nor like deca or tren.

If recovery is the worry, with a good PCT and HCG use its not too much to worry about-if the shits real. You could shorten the 10 weeks down to 8 weeks, most gains come in the first 6-8 weeks and either way you have to wait 2 weeks before starting PCT. The longer you are on the harder it is to recover. Although two weeks isnt a huge deal at all.

you could still post up a pic w/stats so we know who/what we are dealing with.

5

I forget who it was, but I read on this forum that you never really know what a prohormone is turning into in your body. Yes, it is supposed to turn into one thing… but who really knows?

6

[quote]DaJa wrote:

[quote]bbh90 wrote:

Week 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week) Optional Ancilliaries

incase of any issues
Week 1-12 Nolva 20mg/d if gyno symptoms start to show
Week 1-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w if you are having prolactin issues
Week 3-10 HCG 250iu 3x/w prevent nuts from shrinking make recovery easier

[/quote]

If gyno becomes an issue, why not just increase the adex dose-leave the nolva for PCT. Adex will work much better and faster. Also, You more than likely will not need the caber with test only. Good to have it on hand but most people use it when running a 19nor like deca or tren.

If recovery is the worry, with a good PCT and HCG use its not too much to worry about-if the shits real. You could shorten the 10 weeks down to 8 weeks, most gains come in the first 6-8 weeks and either way you have to wait 2 weeks before starting PCT. The longer you are on the harder it is to recover. Although two weeks isnt a huge deal at all.

you could still post up a pic w/stats so we know who/what we are dealing with.[/quote]

thanks for the info it is a possibilty to add deca into the first 4 weeks but adding deca isnt too appealing to me because of the deca dick ill post my stats and a pic here

age: 20
weight: 170
height: 5 9 1/2
bf%: 8-9%
goal: gain more mass been training 7 years natural and find it very difficult to bring myself above 170 without fat gain although i do see volume gains so i feel i can get bigger still but very slowly basically i feel i am reaching my natural potential
nutrition: i like to go for lean gains iv done bulks and cuts in the past and did not find them as effective right now im going for very lean gains and i take in about 3000 calories with 1 cheat day a week my macros are right around protein 292 carbs 276 and fats 60
routine: i have tried many routines and my favorite by far is the max ot routine

this is what im workin with right now

i can post my exact diet and routine if you want

my main concern is being able to make my hormones recover fully in the long run i think i have a good set up and can get them to recover post cycle but i guess im still somewhat worried about the unknown and long term while at the same time i rather strongly believe that with proper pct and cycle set up you will be alright

7

Youre nowhere close to your natural potential. Thats a joke.

Max OT is not ideal for hypertrophy. Nor is “lean bulking”. Fat gain is apart of getting more muscular. This does not mean you get fat. But clearly you dont have the genetics to stay at 7-8% bodyfat and grow muscle. Therefore you should focus on eating more and getting on a bodybuilding oriented split to elicit the mass gains you seek.

Using steroids at this stage in your development is simply a shortcut.

8

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Youre nowhere close to your natural potential. Thats a joke.

Max OT is not ideal for hypertrophy. Nor is “lean bulking”. Fat gain is apart of getting more muscular. This does not mean you get fat. But clearly you dont have the genetics to stay at 7-8% bodyfat and grow muscle. Therefore you should focus on eating more and getting on a bodybuilding oriented split to elicit the mass gains you seek.

Using steroids at this stage in your development is simply a shortcut. [/quote]

why do you say i clearly dont have the genetics to grow muscle at 7-8%?

i have tried gaining with heavier bulks at one point i was up to 195 and although i think at the time i did not know how to cut quiet properly the end result was that i gained about 5 pounds of muscle in a 2 year bulk i think now i would have a more successful bulk because i have everything much better figured out

but still im not sure what makes you think im so far away from my natural potential jim cordova is like 165 granted he is shorter than me but at the same time my career is not natural bodybuilding but what my point is is that he hasnt gained that much bodyweight but he has gained muscle volume which i said i think i can still gain as well

id like to see if we compared me to a bunch of the other natural lifters at 20 who are 5 9 1/2 i gurantee i would be one of the better builds of them

maybe im taking this in the wrong way but i think its some serious bullshit the way most ppl rate physiques if i was 185 11-12% bodyfat i guarentee more ppl would be saying that they think im gettin close to ready for a cycle not to mention if i was 25 i could litterally be my height 180 14% bodyfat and ppl would be like alright man looks like your ready to start your first cycle
i see this all to often where ppl will be in half as good of shape or just a few years older and ppl are more than willing to recommend cycles

i think ppl far to often associate mass with extra bodyfat sure you look bigger if your 185 12% bodfat but that person does not ahve anymore actual muscle than a person with my stats they just look overall bigger notice i say bigger because thats just it they look overall bigger not better and definetly arnt in better overall shape

i have a goal to look big and good not just “big”

i

9

I say that because if you did have that ability you’d be growing at a steady rate and not be thinking about steroids.

If you have things figured out better thats great, you should work with your new knowledge and add the muscle the you say you can add.

Jim Cordova is 160lbs at 2-3% bodyfat. You better believe he doesnt stay at that bodyfat % while attempting to gain muscle. And when he does add bodyfat you have to consider that he is a pro bodybuilder meaning he has the best genetics in the world for doing what he does. If you keep saying retarded shit like comparing yourself to the best “natural” bodybuilder people are going to think youre a troll.

Youre delusional if you think comparing yourself to other 20 year olds is valid criteria for justifying using steroids. You may not have the literal age of a child but you sure do sound like one.

About your gripe about others’ opinions. Ill put it to you nicely. You arent 8% based on that picture. Just because you have abs and used some calipers that said so doesnt mean its true. Now theres a chance you may be 8% but you dont look it because your muscle doesnt have that dense look. The muscle still looks soft.

If you were 25 with your stats people would be asking you why you havent made more progress for someone lifting since he was 13. No one would be impressed/support a steroid cycle by a underdeveloped 25 year old either.

Newsflash. If you are infact 8% bodyfat at 170lbs then 185lbs @ 12% IS more muscle than you. do the math.

Who in their right mind doesnt want to look good? You sound like a fool.

The fact is that youre young and underdeveloped. But even more so NO WHERE CLOSE to your natural potential. Use steroids if you want. Who cares really? But dont bullshit us or yourself by claiming youre close to your natural potential.

10

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I say that because if you did have that ability you’d be growing at a steady rate and not be thinking about steroids.

If you have things figured out better thats great, you should work with your new knowledge and add the muscle the you say you can add.

Jim Cordova is 160lbs at 2-3% bodyfat. You better believe he doesnt stay at that bodyfat % while attempting to gain muscle. And when he does add bodyfat you have to consider that he is a pro bodybuilder meaning he has the best genetics in the world for doing what he does. If you keep saying retarded shit like comparing yourself to the best “natural” bodybuilder people are going to think youre a troll.

Youre delusional if you think comparing yourself to other 20 year olds is valid criteria for justifying using steroids. You may not have the literal age of a child but you sure do sound like one.

About your gripe about others’ opinions. Ill put it to you nicely. You arent 8% based on that picture. Just because you have abs and used some calipers that said so doesnt mean its true. Now theres a chance you may be 8% but you dont look it because your muscle doesnt have that dense look. The muscle still looks soft.

If you were 25 with your stats people would be asking you why you havent made more progress for someone lifting since he was 13. No one would be impressed/support a steroid cycle by a underdeveloped 25 year old either.

Newsflash. If you are infact 8% bodyfat at 170lbs then 185lbs @ 12% IS more muscle than you. do the math.

Who in their right mind doesnt want to look good? You sound like a fool.

The fact is that youre young and underdeveloped. But even more so NO WHERE CLOSE to your natural potential. Use steroids if you want. Who cares really? But dont bullshit us or yourself by claiming youre close to your natural potential.
[/quote]

apparently you either didnt comprehend what i wrote or are putting words in my mouth to try and defend your statemetns

first of all jim cordova isnt 2% bodyfat 3 is the lowest bodyfat anyone gets too
second im not comparing myself to jim cordova im using him as an example to make a point that just because im 170 bodyweight alone doesnt really say much in reaching your natural potential your development does
third when did i ever say that comparing myself to other 20 year olds justifies steroid use?? i was saying that to make a point that i have made good progress and definitely more progress than a lot of 20 year old lifters and you statement about sounding like a child is rediculous cuz if i do sound like one your the dumbass arguing with one
forth im not sure what made you a more accurate bodyfat calculator than calipers apparently your just under the impression that your some sort of guru when it comes to anything bodybuilding
fifth even if i was 25 ppl would be pleased to have my physique and i dont think anyones first words would be that im underdeveloped and since im 20 i definitely done think im under developed and sorry i didnt do the math cuz i dont give a fuck if its 100% correct i was making an exampel that i could have the same muscle mass and more body fat yet ppl would see that as more progress because i would appear “bigger”
and there are a shit load of ppl who just want to look big so your statement really holds no water at all

so now that you have tried to call me out on a bunch of bullshit that i never even said you just decided to try and make it sound that way why dont you explain your experience since you apparently think you hold some sort of superior knowledge how big were you at 20? how about when you started juicin? did you reach your natural potential before juicin? lets hear a little about yourself bonez im dying for your wisdom

and just as a side note im glad i was able to sort out all the bullshit you tried to pin on me with a correct explanation of each statement but i think its pretty agreeable that by far the most fucking retarded statement in this thread was by you saying max ot is not ideal for hypertrophy…

wow… it may not fall under the catagory of hypertrophy but the real point is your saying its not ideal for mass gains… shit man you better tell that to jeff willet and skip lacour cuz apparently their doin it all wrong! who would have guessed a random T-Nation poster was so much more knowledgable than two of the worlds best natural bodybuilders??

11

Hang on a minute, why are you even talking about natural bodybuilders if you plan on using steroids? Am I missing something?

12

[quote]bbh90 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
I say that because if you did have that ability you’d be growing at a steady rate and not be thinking about steroids.

If you have things figured out better thats great, you should work with your new knowledge and add the muscle the you say you can add.

Jim Cordova is 160lbs at 2-3% bodyfat. You better believe he doesnt stay at that bodyfat % while attempting to gain muscle. And when he does add bodyfat you have to consider that he is a pro bodybuilder meaning he has the best genetics in the world for doing what he does. If you keep saying retarded shit like comparing yourself to the best “natural” bodybuilder people are going to think youre a troll.

Youre delusional if you think comparing yourself to other 20 year olds is valid criteria for justifying using steroids. You may not have the literal age of a child but you sure do sound like one.

About your gripe about others’ opinions. Ill put it to you nicely. You arent 8% based on that picture. Just because you have abs and used some calipers that said so doesnt mean its true. Now theres a chance you may be 8% but you dont look it because your muscle doesnt have that dense look. The muscle still looks soft.

If you were 25 with your stats people would be asking you why you havent made more progress for someone lifting since he was 13. No one would be impressed/support a steroid cycle by a underdeveloped 25 year old either.

Newsflash. If you are infact 8% bodyfat at 170lbs then 185lbs @ 12% IS more muscle than you. do the math.

Who in their right mind doesnt want to look good? You sound like a fool.

The fact is that youre young and underdeveloped. But even more so NO WHERE CLOSE to your natural potential. Use steroids if you want. Who cares really? But dont bullshit us or yourself by claiming youre close to your natural potential.
[/quote]

apparently you either didnt comprehend what i wrote or are putting words in my mouth to try and defend your statemetns

first of all jim cordova isnt 2% bodyfat 3 is the lowest bodyfat anyone gets too
second im not comparing myself to jim cordova im using him as an example to make a point that just because im 170 bodyweight alone doesnt really say much in reaching your natural potential your development does
third when did i ever say that comparing myself to other 20 year olds justifies steroid use?? i was saying that to make a point that i have made good progress and definitely more progress than a lot of 20 year old lifters and you statement about sounding like a child is rediculous cuz if i do sound like one your the dumbass arguing with one
forth im not sure what made you a more accurate bodyfat calculator than calipers apparently your just under the impression that your some sort of guru when it comes to anything bodybuilding
fifth even if i was 25 ppl would be pleased to have my physique and i dont think anyones first words would be that im underdeveloped and since im 20 i definitely done think im under developed and sorry i didnt do the math cuz i dont give a fuck if its 100% correct i was making an exampel that i could have the same muscle mass and more body fat yet ppl would see that as more progress because i would appear “bigger”
and there are a shit load of ppl who just want to look big so your statement really holds no water at all

so now that you have tried to call me out on a bunch of bullshit that i never even said you just decided to try and make it sound that way why dont you explain your experience since you apparently think you hold some sort of superior knowledge how big were you at 20? how about when you started juicin? did you reach your natural potential before juicin? lets hear a little about yourself bonez im dying for your wisdom

and just as a side note im glad i was able to sort out all the bullshit you tried to pin on me with a correct explanation of each statement but i think its pretty agreeable that by far the most fucking retarded statement in this thread was by you saying max ot is not ideal for hypertrophy…

wow… it may not fall under the catagory of hypertrophy but the real point is your saying its not ideal for mass gains… shit man you better tell that to jeff willet and skip lacour cuz apparently their doin it all wrong! who would have guessed a random T-Nation poster was so much more knowledgable than two of the worlds best natural bodybuilders??

[/quote]

Haha

Ok chief. You know it all. Have fun with your endeavor.

13

Yah brother, you’re not that big. We can take pictures that are angled as well. You still don’t look big regardless of the angle. If you think you’ve reached your natural potential, then go ahead and cycle. It just means you have weak genetics and are not cut out to hang with the big dogs anyway. So go ahead and pretend you’re a thoroughbred but we all know you’re a mutt.

14

[quote]bbh90 wrote:

[quote]DaJa wrote:

[quote]bbh90 wrote:

Week 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week) Optional Ancilliaries

incase of any issues
Week 1-12 Nolva 20mg/d if gyno symptoms start to show
Week 1-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w if you are having prolactin issues
Week 3-10 HCG 250iu 3x/w prevent nuts from shrinking make recovery easier

[/quote]

If gyno becomes an issue, why not just increase the adex dose-leave the nolva for PCT. Adex will work much better and faster. Also, You more than likely will not need the caber with test only. Good to have it on hand but most people use it when running a 19nor like deca or tren.

If recovery is the worry, with a good PCT and HCG use its not too much to worry about-if the shits real. You could shorten the 10 weeks down to 8 weeks, most gains come in the first 6-8 weeks and either way you have to wait 2 weeks before starting PCT. The longer you are on the harder it is to recover. Although two weeks isnt a huge deal at all.

you could still post up a pic w/stats so we know who/what we are dealing with.[/quote]

thanks for the info it is a possibilty to add deca into the first 4 weeks but adding deca isnt too appealing to me because of the deca dick ill post my stats and a pic here

age: 20
weight: 170
height: 5 9 1/2
bf%: 8-9%
goal: gain more mass been training 7 years natural and find it very difficult to bring myself above 170 without fat gain although i do see volume gains so i feel i can get bigger still but very slowly basically i feel i am reaching my natural potential
nutrition: i like to go for lean gains iv done bulks and cuts in the past and did not find them as effective right now im going for very lean gains and i take in about 3000 calories with 1 cheat day a week my macros are right around protein 292 carbs 276 and fats 60
routine: i have tried many routines and my favorite by far is the max ot routine

this is what im workin with right now

i can post my exact diet and routine if you want

my main concern is being able to make my hormones recover fully in the long run i think i have a good set up and can get them to recover post cycle but i guess im still somewhat worried about the unknown and long term while at the same time i rather strongly believe that with proper pct and cycle set up you will be alright [/quote]

Dont worry about fat gain. If you want to add mass eat and eat everything. Drink shit loads of water, and milk if you can take it. You can eat clean, but regardless your callories need to be sky high so you will gain some amount of fat. At 6’9 170lbs that is kinda small-your body looks fine-athletic. But not so much big bodybuilder/powerlifter. You could easily push it to 180lbs, and Im sure with time you could gain more.

Yes you could start using gear at this stage, and use it successfully. You could recover successfully, But like Bonez and others are pointing to is it would be a short cut to get to your natural limit vs a tool to get you above and beyond your natural limit. I personaly started using as a “short cut” and am not bothered by it at all-it was my choice, and Im happy with it. But Im also not saying everyone should go that route. As said, its your choice. Do as you please. Make damn sure this is what you want and you know just a smidge of what you’re doing.

To the original ?, ditch the PH if you can get real AAS. And read

15

[quote]TheBigV wrote:
Yah brother, you’re not that big. We can take pictures that are angled as well. You still don’t look big regardless of the angle. If you think you’ve reached your natural potential, then go ahead and cycle. It just means you have weak genetics and are not cut out to hang with the big dogs anyway. So go ahead and pretend you’re a thoroughbred but we all know you’re a mutt.[/quote]

i have no problem admitting that i havent reached my max potential i think that i have made good progress and as far as genetics i think i have pretty good genetics idk that i think my genetics are pushing me twards a huge hulky look but i do think they have an asthetic look in which i can gain a reasonable amount of mass

while at the same time im not trying to obtain a huge hulky look im basically trying to obtain a similar look to what i have with more mass and about 1 or 2% less bodyfat

do i think i could get to 180 sure i do so i guess we can call it a shortcut but 180 i really do believe at least at a similar bodyfat would be very very close to my natural potential and that it would take a very long time to get to so can we call it a shortcut ya but im not sure who anyone else is to judge based on that alone basically everyone using steroids is taking a shortcut theres never been someone who took a cycle that litterally couldnt improve their physique at all before using steroids

so im not trying tosay im so advanced that the only option is steroids what im saying is that iv gotten to a point where its definetly a lot harder to get gains and if i were to get to 180 it could take a very long time yes it is a shortcut but all im trying to defend is that regardless of shortcut or not i think iv made myself a respectable frame and that its reasonable to be thinking about a cycle

16

You dont get it. Ill leave you alone though since you clearly dont want to hear it

17

[quote]DaJa wrote:

[quote]bbh90 wrote:

[quote]DaJa wrote:

[quote]bbh90 wrote:

Week 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week) Optional Ancilliaries

incase of any issues
Week 1-12 Nolva 20mg/d if gyno symptoms start to show
Week 1-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w if you are having prolactin issues
Week 3-10 HCG 250iu 3x/w prevent nuts from shrinking make recovery easier

[/quote]

If gyno becomes an issue, why not just increase the adex dose-leave the nolva for PCT. Adex will work much better and faster. Also, You more than likely will not need the caber with test only. Good to have it on hand but most people use it when running a 19nor like deca or tren.

If recovery is the worry, with a good PCT and HCG use its not too much to worry about-if the shits real. You could shorten the 10 weeks down to 8 weeks, most gains come in the first 6-8 weeks and either way you have to wait 2 weeks before starting PCT. The longer you are on the harder it is to recover. Although two weeks isnt a huge deal at all.

you could still post up a pic w/stats so we know who/what we are dealing with.[/quote]

thanks for the info it is a possibilty to add deca into the first 4 weeks but adding deca isnt too appealing to me because of the deca dick ill post my stats and a pic here

age: 20
weight: 170
height: 5 9 1/2
bf%: 8-9%
goal: gain more mass been training 7 years natural and find it very difficult to bring myself above 170 without fat gain although i do see volume gains so i feel i can get bigger still but very slowly basically i feel i am reaching my natural potential
nutrition: i like to go for lean gains iv done bulks and cuts in the past and did not find them as effective right now im going for very lean gains and i take in about 3000 calories with 1 cheat day a week my macros are right around protein 292 carbs 276 and fats 60
routine: i have tried many routines and my favorite by far is the max ot routine

this is what im workin with right now

i can post my exact diet and routine if you want

my main concern is being able to make my hormones recover fully in the long run i think i have a good set up and can get them to recover post cycle but i guess im still somewhat worried about the unknown and long term while at the same time i rather strongly believe that with proper pct and cycle set up you will be alright [/quote]

Dont worry about fat gain. If you want to add mass eat and eat everything. Drink shit loads of water, and milk if you can take it. You can eat clean, but regardless your callories need to be sky high so you will gain some amount of fat. At 6’9 170lbs that is kinda small-your body looks fine-athletic. But not so much big bodybuilder/powerlifter. You could easily push it to 180lbs, and Im sure with time you could gain more.

Yes you could start using gear at this stage, and use it successfully. You could recover successfully, But like Bonez and others are pointing to is it would be a short cut to get to your natural limit vs a tool to get you above and beyond your natural limit. I personaly started using as a “short cut” and am not bothered by it at all-it was my choice, and Im happy with it. But Im also not saying everyone should go that route. As said, its your choice. Do as you please. Make damn sure this is what you want and you know just a smidge of what you’re doing.

To the original ?, ditch the PH if you can get real AAS. And read[/quote]

thanks i agree i could put on more mass with time and upping calories but as you said its a personal choice of when and if you want to cycle and i would not be bothered by starting now i like the frame i have and iv experience bulking cutting maintaing lean bulking and so i feel im prepared to bring myself up to the level i want to be at and maintain it as well as make some gains iv been researchign mroe and getting more opinions and iv decided id rather do test as long as i can find connections its probably going to be another 3 months before i can actually start thinking about starting the cycle because it will take time for me to do all this as well as really zero in on the exact cycle i want to do and how i will run it

thanks for the help i think you understand more my goal in all this because im not trying to sound like im the shit or something and look at all this great physique all im really trying to say is i think iv made enough progress and that i am knowledgable enough to start thinking about taking it to the next level and in my mind the next level isnt looking like a bodybuilder its basically just looking really good its kind of like i know i put waay more time effort and over all its a lifestyle choice some people choose to work out casually and drink every weekend not eat right and all kinds of stuff and thats there choice and amoung those people there are even some gentic freaks that can eat shitty get hammered every weekend ect. and still have a physique just as good as mine but for me and everything i put into it i want to be the best i can and although i still have some natural potential left maybe some people wouldnt choose this but i choose that i want to look my best sooner than later i know i love the bodybuilding lifestyle so its not like im going to stop lifting or become less dedicated once i reach my goal so why not just enjoy my goal physique for longer?

18

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
You dont get it. Ill leave you alone though since you clearly dont want to hear it[/quote]

explain to me what im not understand but please read my most recent post before deciding you dont think i get it at all

im not trying to argue with you your correct im not at my natural potential but still i think iv made good progress i was defensive about you coming on strong with your posts

19

The fact that you are asking such a superficial question such as “which is safer?” is enough to confirm that you are not ready in terms of understanding. Don’t take this the wrong way I am simply saying that if you need to ask this question… you do not know enough about these compounds to start a cycle.

In terms of physical development, I think that a “decent” level of strength should be attained before using AAS, simply so that 1) you can make the most of the compounds, in terms of knowledge of how to train… and 2) tendon and connective tissue strength need to be adequate before you start piling on extra loads quickly through AAS use.

Just what “decent” and “adequate” mean are subjective… just don’t take the piss.

Also take note that steroids will only accelerate your gains… if you are barely gaining naturally then I’m doubtful it is worth it for you at this point.

20

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
The fact that you are asking such a superficial question such as “which is safer?” is enough to confirm that you are not ready in terms of understanding. Don’t take this the wrong way I am simply saying that if you need to ask this question… you do not know enough about these compounds to start a cycle.

In terms of physical development, I think that a “decent” level of strength should be attained before using AAS, simply so that 1) you can make the most of the compounds, in terms of knowledge of how to train… and 2) tendon and connective tissue strength need to be adequate before you start piling on extra loads quickly through AAS use.

Just what “decent” and “adequate” mean are subjective… just don’t take the piss.

Also take note that steroids will only accelerate your gains… if you are barely gaining naturally then I’m doubtful it is worth it for you at this point.[/quote]

when i posted this i was more a matter of which people thought would shut you down harder not so much other things im not sure if i can answer which one i think is truly safter ph’s are harder on the liver and how do you really know your getting what you wanted and AAS have the chance for abcess with injectables plus depending on your dealer you dont know that your really getting what you wanted with AAS either as far as shut down i have come to the understanding that they will both shut you down pretty significantly but h-drol will cause less overall shutdown but not by much

with physical devopment my strength is kind of my strong point right now im doing 275 bench for sets of 5 squats i was at 340 for sets of 5 but i no long back squat because of a bulged disc i do front squats instead and my dead lift about 405 seated BB press i have some room for improvement but its about 180 for sets of 5

i didnt mean to make the impression that im not gaining naturally i go up in strength in most all my lifts every week and i do see gains in my muscle volume but as far as actually bodyweight gains those are rather slow going i weighted myself yesterday actually and when i have been weighing in at 170 i recently weighed in at 175 not sure what that was about although i did make this last weekend a huge cheat weekend i guess i might need to up my cals because i didnt see any bodyfat gain either but im also wondering if it could be the scale ill re weigh myself today at the gym

but as far as gains i absolutly am making gains honestly iv actually been making better gains in the last couple months than i have in a while for the most part they arnt really translating into actually bodyweight gains though but i was suprised with the scale yesterday so well have to see

not trying to make it sound like anything you said isnt valid just trying to give some info on myself to give you a better understanding of where im at