What to Do When Doing ~15 Reps on 1+Week (Back Problems)

Training 5/3/1
1

So, in March I started with 5/3/1 Triumvirate. I picked Triumvirate to avoid over-loading my lower back, which causes me some problems. My assistance work has been:

Squat / abs / Bulgarian split squat / back extensions
Dead lift / abs / GHR

I started with an estimated squat 1RM of ~130 kg (110 kg x 5) and am now at and estimated 1RM of ~180 kg (115 kg x 14).

With DL I started with an estimated 1RM of ~150 kg (127,5 kg x 5) and am now at an estimated 1RM of ~220 kg (137,5 kg x 14).

So progress WAY faster than I expected - thank’s Jim. I suspect it went so fast because I lifted a lot 20 years ago in high school for football / shot put + discus. Back then I reached a similar strength level over about 3 years of lifting.

So, I’m not sure about a couple of things:

Is there a general recommendation for what to do when you’re doing ~15 reps on your 1+ week? Just keep going with the normal +5 kg per cycle progression? The rep maxes are killer… after ~15 reps I’m more winded than I’ve ever been just by sprints. I’m sometimes pretty wasted the day after and the 4 days between squats and dead lifts is definitely not enough recovery, so I end up with a pattern of good/bad/good/bad lower body days.

Squats seem to be no problem for me, but dead lifts seem to aggravate my lower back. I’ve already been to the doc and I hope this issue will get better as my back gets stronger and more flexible again, so I’m happy to be taking things slow and don’t necessarily want to increase the TM super fast.

I’m also somewhat concerned about injuries - I would really like to lift for many years to come. In the Injuries & Rehab sub-forum and via Google I’ve seen a bunch of posts like “while DLing 400+ lbs / squating 350+ lbs I f***ed up my back - what now?”. So, I guess my questions are, do you find very heavy weights more risky with respect to injury? And is there a general recommendation for what to do if you are hesitant to do extremely heavy weights? (Yeah, yeah, I know I’m a pussy… but hopefully one that will be lifting for many years without major joint problems…)

Also, my goal is not to become a power lifter, although it seems pretty cool. I want to be strong in general and have a high lean BM and picked 5/3/1 because I figured getting strong would lead to a higher lean BM.

Thanks!

2

Don’t mess with the progression, however, you should look into some of the options that Jim suggested in Beyond 531, such as capping your max rep set at 10, 8 or 5 reps and then using Joker sets. Also, you seem to have miscalculated your predicted maxes (just pointing this out so it doesn’t get nasty when you use those numbers to reset your training max), 115 kg x 14 would give you an estimated training max of 167.5kg for your squat and 137.5 kg x 14 would give you an estimated training max of 202.5 kg for your deadlift.

3

It depends on exactly how strong you want to be man. Some people lift such God awful heavy weights that they can’t help but get injured. On the other hand some never have any problems from lifting heavy weights. If you are getting 15+ you probably underestimated your 1 rm a little but that is ok just keep going because the weights will get heavy as you progress. Use the 5 cycles forward 3 cycles back progression.

brought to you by my e-opinion

4

Switch to 3/5/1

Weeks:

  1. Hard - rep maxes
  2. Easy (no rep maxes)
  3. Hard - cap rep maxes at X, do ONE joker set (105%)

Personally I wouldn’t change at all: you are getting stronger. You seem to equate lifting weights with getting injured: it’s usually lack of concentration and preparedness to the task at hand that gets you hurt. Also, be sure to do tons of ab/low back work.

If you are having problems recovering, either do a better job of recovering, take more days off between sessions (7 days is a totally arbitrary number to base training on) or suck it up. Your “complaint” is that you are getting stronger. Ride the wave.

5

Just to add,
I stopped thinking of my training week in terms of 7 days a long time ago. My weeks are now 10 days long - like Jim outlines in the “Three Days Per Week” book. It works like a charm. FYI, read the article just posted here by Staley - especially point 4- it addresses a certain attitude towards fear.

6

If you’re concerned about your volume with deadlifting, and to Jim’s point, take a look at his SVR template in the Beyond book; I think it’s what he’s referring to actually.

7

[quote]ario wrote:
Also, you seem to have miscalculated your predicted maxes (just pointing this out so it doesn’t get nasty when you use those numbers to reset your training max), 115 kg x 14 would give you an estimated training max of 167.5kg for your squat and 137.5 kg x 14 would give you an estimated training max of 202.5 kg for your deadlift.[/quote]

I use a slightly different method to calculate 1RM based on the numbers here:

I use…
1 rep = 100 %
2 reps = 93.5%
3 reps = 91.0 %
4 reps = 88.5%
5 reps = 86.0 %
(and -2.5% for every further rep)
and so forth…

The 3.3% per rep is a linear fit to the same data. The numbers I use are a bit more complicated because the jump from 1 to 2 reps doesn’t fit the equation of a line.

8

[quote]casperthegst wrote:
If you are getting 15+ you probably underestimated your 1 rm a little but that is ok just keep going because the weights will get heavy as you progress. Use the 5 cycles forward 3 cycles back progression.[/quote]

Well, when I tested my strength I had just switched from conventional dead lift to sumo, so I didn’t have the technique down, the motor pattern was new and my glutes were a big a weak point. So I added Bulgarian split squats, which smoked my glutes and then I started trying to copy this guy:

Seems to have worked.

:slight_smile:

9

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
If you’re concerned about your volume with deadlifting, and to Jim’s point, take a look at his SVR template in the Beyond book; I think it’s what he’s referring to actually. [/quote]

SVR is similar, but a little different. Do see the book for more details, but it is not exactly the same as Jim’s post. Just FYI and to avoid any confusion.

10

Thanks for the input, I was hoping to hear from you. I’m always informed and amused by your no BS answers.

[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:
Switch to 3/5/1

Weeks:

  1. Hard - rep maxes
  2. Easy (no rep maxes)
  3. Hard - cap rep maxes at X, do ONE joker set (105%)
    [/quote]

Didn’t think of anything like this, though now you say it, it seems obvious. I’ll have to try it out.

Well, it’s not weight lifting in general, but rather more like:
very heavy weight + possibly bad technique + possible asymmetries/weak points = bad injury

I don’t have a coach here to check my technique and the “trainers” in my commercial gym make mistakes that even I can easily pick out. The best technique tips I’ve gotten have been from a PT believe it or not. Plus, I know I have some specific weak points / slightly limited range of motion in spine extension/flexion.

You’re definitely right about lower back/ab work… I’ll have to work that in.

[quote]
If you are having problems recovering, either do a better job of recovering, take more days off between sessions (7 days is a totally arbitrary number to base training on) or suck it up. Your “complaint” is that you are getting stronger. Ride the wave. [/quote]

I think my “complaint” is that I’m very nervous about starting in at weights over above ~160 - 180 kg. And this is making me second guess a good program. Which is annoying.

11

[quote]Rave2.0 wrote:
Just to add,
I stopped thinking of my training week in terms of 7 days a long time ago. My weeks are now 10 days long - like Jim outlines in the “Three Days Per Week” book. It works like a charm. FYI, read the article just posted here by Staley - especially point 4- it addresses a certain attitude towards fear.[/quote]

Needing more than 3-4 days to recover is new to me…

Good call on the point in the article.

12

I also have a bad back, so I use a hex bar for deadlifts ( which I like much more than sumo, which used to be my style of choice until I reached 40 and I made more money to buy the bar :slight_smile: and do the 4 workouts over 3 days/week. My routine is about identical to yours with assistance exercises as well - on my upper body days, I also finish with abs/core to burnout. And like what has already been said, I cap my deadlifts at 10 and squats at 15, especially on the 1+ days.

13

how the heck are you guys getting 15 frigging reps on your 1+ week??? come on now isn’t that a bit easy this is not to be a walk in the park or an endurance race. sorry but grow a pair I cap mine at 5 max 6 on my 1+

14

oh and one more thing I will push my 5’s week 3’ and 1’s week until I hit those numbers and then and only then will I reset my training max.it is fucking hard and suppose to be what a bunch of vags or vagina’s :slight_smile: