[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
You such a derogatory asshole it boggles my mind.
[/quote]
Only speak when spoken to Ryan
Nearly a full page of the same nonsense.
Childish bullshit and childish posters.
I doubt I am alone in being real tired of this shit and the same guys doing it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Nearly a full page of the same nonsense.
Childish bullshit and childish posters.
I doubt I am alone in being real tired of this shit and the same guys doing it.[/quote]
And you doing the same as well not even being able to hold an adult conversation without refusing to speak to someone on the subject then reffering to them as guy. Yes childish I agree
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
You such a derogatory asshole it boggles my mind.
[/quote]
Only speak when spoken to Ryan[/quote]
I will go to my room on a time out sorry.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Nearly a full page of the same nonsense.
Childish bullshit and childish posters.
I doubt I am alone in being real tired of this shit and the same guys doing it.[/quote]
Iām fully aware of how pointless it is in pointing this out to you, but YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. Itās been pointed out time and again, yet you blame everyone else. Youāre like the 4 year old girl that throws a temper tantrum the jams her fingers in her ears while shouting āBLAH-BLAH-BLAH-BLAHā¦ā Itās the major reason so many quality posters have abandoned the site, plain and simple.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
I understand where you are coming from with that, and the Butts formula that I have referenced in other threads makes an effort to accommodate that with the wrist and ankle measurements however he (and I) acknowledge that there will be some variance for those with out of the norm proportions. [/quote]
Actually, Casey Butts stated right here that his formula may not work for those of African descent.
His source of info would further call it into question.
[quote]
I think the limits argument is still valid however if start from the place that Brick suggested when he was discussing the limit, which was your fully matured self in an untrained state compared to your matured self in your currently trained state. I know you disagree with using that as a measuring stick and I will agree that it is a lot of conjecture in that but by using that formula saying 80lbs of muscle gains is unattainable is a pretty safe bet.
Again I know that you disagree with starting from that point but if one does start from that point then I think the limit is perfectly reasonable. [/quote]
You already should know that I would look at where the actual individual was at the age of adulthood.
I wouldnāt look at them as an adultā¦and then add weight to them for weight they are āsupposed to gainā before they hit the age of 21.
That makes no sense.
So yes, I agree it is conjecture and nothing more.
Everyone doesnāt fit the same mould ā¦thus why a guy as tall as you can have a shoe size damn near 3-4 sizes bigger.
Chances are, he can hold more ālean body massā than youā¦even if you won the best natural bodybuilding contest in the world.[/quote]
The Americans of African descent thing has some value but I would make the case that the same thing could be said for Samoan or Nordic genetics. However he also said that the variance would be in the round about 5% range. And you are right that your body type will hold more LBM than mine however that is accounted for in Butts formula with the ankle and wrist circumferences. Yours are probably larger than mine, most are, therefore your LBM potential would be higher.
Our biggest difference of opinion appears to be what we consider gains. I try to eliminate all gains that were not strictly a product of training and you allow those gains in LBM that are strictly a result of maturation of the body to be added on to your total gains.
This is not even necessarily a wrong or a right that can be definitively answered but we each believe that our way is the most correct so I think we have reached an impasse in the debate.
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
5 10, 210 and 6-10% natural? Oh no bro.
Brickhead says you are either a) lying b) your friends are on roids c) you donāt know what bodyfat is. Because he talked to a load of bodybuilders about it. Who apparently are all pathological liars. Does that make much sense?
[/quote]
5ā10, 210 pounds @ 10% isnāt unattainable as a natural and Iām sure Brick would agree.
Please try not to stir up more S, things have become civil lately and lets yet to keep it that way.
Iām sure we can keep it civil for a little while until some mega douche decides to try and really stir it up againā¦
Did you get a chance to snap a photo of your massive guns for me?
I am still waiting for the arms tips because mine are lagging :([/quote]
No pics Iām afraid. Iām not here to prove anything. Iād like to think that the logic of what I say when I decide to talk sense speaks for itself. But then again, not everyoneās into logic.
[quote]Gooze wrote:
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
5 10, 210 and 6-10% natural? Oh no bro.
Brickhead says you are either a) lying b) your friends are on roids c) you donāt know what bodyfat is. Because he talked to a load of bodybuilders about it. Who apparently are all pathological liars. Does that make much sense?
[/quote]
5ā10, 210 pounds @ 10% isnāt unattainable as a natural and Iām sure Brick would agree.
Please try not to stir up more S, things have become civil lately and lets yet to keep it that way.
Iām sure we can keep it civil for a little while until some mega douche decides to try and really stir it up againā¦
Did you get a chance to snap a photo of your massive guns for me?
I am still waiting for the arms tips because mine are lagging :([/quote]
For the record, Iām 5ā9" 230 at approximately 18% BF. I was 17 at my last DEXA scan so I know thatās very close. Theoretically, if I dropped half of my body fat I would be about 209 at a true 9%, and I havenāt used roids. So I would agree that itās doable.
[/quote]
Do you think if you totally dedicated yourself to lifting, ate a perfect diet and got adequate sleep for the next ten years that you could hit 225 at six percent? Who here thinks he couldnāt? And for the motivation to do this, if you reach that then you will beat the worlds best pro nattys and could easily clean up. If you got to that level, would you compete in bodybuilding?
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
And you are right that your body type will hold more LBM than mine however that is accounted for in Butts formula with the ankle and wrist circumferences. Yours are probably larger than mine, most are, therefore your LBM potential would be higher. [/quote]
But my wrists also grew from since when I was 18ā¦something Butt does NOT take into accountā¦so I do not use any of his formulas nor do I give them much credit because of what we have discussed right here.
[quote]
Our biggest difference of opinion appears to be what we consider gains. I try to eliminate all gains that were not strictly a product of training and you allow those gains in LBM that are strictly a result of maturation of the body to be added on to your total gains. [/quote]
This is incorrect. You are ASSUMING someone is going to gain weight between ages 18-21ā¦based on what?
This is conjecture.
I know what I weighed at 18ā¦and I know how hard I had to try just to weigh that much.
Coming in from the outside and saying I would have magically gained another 20lbs effortlessly just because I turned 21 isnāt factā¦it is THEORY.
[/quote]
Do you think if you totally dedicated yourself to lifting, ate a perfect diet and got adequate sleep for the next ten years that you could hit 225 at six percent? Who here thinks he couldnāt? And for the motivation to do this, if you reach that then you will beat the worlds best pro nattys and could easily clean up. If you got to that level, would you compete in bodybuilding?
[/quote]
That would require an approximate gain of 23lbs of LBM and a loss of roughly 28lbs of fat, if my quick calculations are close to correct. But that could be off. Over ten years, thatās likely possible, if I dedicated myself to it wholeheartedly. However, bodybuilding is not a sport that I have much interest in competing in, so the likelihood of reaching those levels of body fat is slim. Iād be much happier reaching 250lbs at 12% bf than I would 225 at 6%, but thatās just me, and that will still likely take 10 years, but thatās okay.
[quote]Gooze wrote:
Iād be much happier reaching 250lbs at 12% bf than I would 225 at 6%, but thatās just me, and that will still likely take 10 years, but thatās okay. [/quote]
To tell the truth, I am sure most people are like this.
Most people are NOT trying to jump on a bodybuilding stageā¦nor would they need to get that lean in order to look goodā¦so why does that standard matter here at all?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
And you are right that your body type will hold more LBM than mine however that is accounted for in Butts formula with the ankle and wrist circumferences. Yours are probably larger than mine, most are, therefore your LBM potential would be higher. [/quote]
But my wrists also grew from since when I was 18ā¦something Butt does NOT take into accountā¦so I do not use any of his formulas nor do I give them much credit because of what we have discussed right here.
I donāt think it would be much of a stretch to say that 90% of guys that never lift a weight will be carrying more LBM at 25 than at 18. I cant prove that but I feel pretty safe in making that assumption however I know that you disagree because I think you think that I am trying to diminish you somehow, which I am not. I am merely discussing something that I find interesting and consider myself a constant student of.
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
I donāt think it would be much of a stretch to say that 90% of guys that never lift a weight will be carrying more LBM at 25 than at 18. [/quote]
90% of those guys were not 80lbs as a high school freshman nor did they need weight gainer just to hit 150lbs before graduation.
Like I said, that is why an actual education in how variable the human body can be is valuable.
[quote]
I cant prove that but I feel pretty safe in making that assumption however I know that you disagree because I think you think that I am trying to diminish you somehow, which I am not. I am merely discussing something that I find interesting and consider myself a constant student of. [/quote]
I donāt think you are trying to do anything but have a discussionā¦and you are doing fine with that.
I just know what I had to do in my life to gain weight at allā¦and you are maiking ASSUMPTIONS based on what most people can do.
Most people donāt have a size 14 shoe at 5ā10"ā¦so āmost peopleā are not the definitive answer for what all people can do.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
I donāt think it would be much of a stretch to say that 90% of guys that never lift a weight will be carrying more LBM at 25 than at 18. [/quote]
90% of those guys were not 80lbs as a high school freshman nor did they need weight gainer just to hit 150lbs before graduation.
Like I said, that is why an actual education in how variable the human body can be is valuable.
[quote]
I cant prove that but I feel pretty safe in making that assumption however I know that you disagree because I think you think that I am trying to diminish you somehow, which I am not. I am merely discussing something that I find interesting and consider myself a constant student of. [/quote]
I donāt think you are trying to do anything but have a discussionā¦and you are doing fine with that.
I just know what I had to do in my life to gain weight at allā¦and you are maiking ASSUMPTIONS based on what most people can do.
Most people donāt have a size 14 shoe at 5ā10"ā¦so āmost peopleā are not the definitive answer for what all people can do.[/quote]
When did your foot hit size 14? Was it that way before 18?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]mistereg wrote:
I know two guys in various sports (wrestling and basketball) who are very lean (6-10% bf) and weigh almost the same as this ānatural limit lbm numbersā suggest. (one of these guys is 5ā10 and weighs 210 lbs). They have never touched a weight in their lifeā¦Both of them have huge legs and small upper bodies. So what do u think would happen if these guys started lifting weights? They would add lbm and would be over the ānatural limitā easily. Does this makes them top natural bodybuilders?[/quote]
It is very likely that they wouldnāt add any significant size regardless of protocol or diet.
[/quote]
I am very interested in what makes you think this.
Someone who never trained like a bodybuilder would be lagging in many areasā¦so how would they possibly not gain any size at all if they started training like one?[/quote]
Before I answer the direct question I want to clarify my general position on the matterā¦
*I do believe that every athlete/lifter has an individual genetic limit
*I do believe that less than 1% of athletes/lifters even come close to that limit
*I do believe that although there are outliners; the majority of lifters will fall within the historical averages. IMOā¦the outliners represent 1% of the 1% and are statistically insignificant
*I do believe that(unassisted)3lbs/inch of height in lean condition is an accomplishment few will achieve; and there are athletes/lifters that have surpassed that point, see 1% of 1% above
*I do not believe that discussing the lifetime development of previous bodybuilders, listing those developments in a table, or calculating stats from the data could interfere with any individuals progress or development unless they are āweakā minded to begin with
Direct Answerā¦
Although I believe the type of development mentioned could be achieved without direct weight training, that development is the response to some type of athletic conditioning. If the individual is indeed 5ā10" @ 210 in lean condition the odds are against any significant unassisted development. Note that I clearly said āodds are againstā not impossible.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
I donāt think it would be much of a stretch to say that 90% of guys that never lift a weight will be carrying more LBM at 25 than at 18. [/quote]
90% of those guys were not 80lbs as a high school freshman nor did they need weight gainer just to hit 150lbs before graduation.
Like I said, that is why an actual education in how variable the human body can be is valuable.
[quote]
I cant prove that but I feel pretty safe in making that assumption however I know that you disagree because I think you think that I am trying to diminish you somehow, which I am not. I am merely discussing something that I find interesting and consider myself a constant student of. [/quote]
I donāt think you are trying to do anything but have a discussionā¦and you are doing fine with that.
I just know what I had to do in my life to gain weight at allā¦and you are maiking ASSUMPTIONS based on what most people can do.
Most people donāt have a size 14 shoe at 5ā10"ā¦so āmost peopleā are not the definitive answer for what all people can do.[/quote]
And to be honest, I would feel pretty confident in thinking that if you only weighed 150 at 18, your body would have to do some significant changing that no amount of training or diet could achieve if you were able to reach a non-fat 270 (or there abouts because my memory has let me down).
By the way, I was throwing out some old bodybuilding mags the other night and Toney Freeman was discussing the quantity of food and frequency of meals he had to eat to go from 160lb kid to the monster that he is now.
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Who here thinks he couldnāt?
[/quote]
Not a knock on the young man but I will raise my hand here.
You are also right about when you try to write seriously your words holding weight
You know I just like to give you a hard time about your massive guns.
Maybe no pics but what about some tips?
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Although I believe the type of development mentioned could be achieved without direct weight training, that development is the response to some type of athletic conditioning. If the individual is indeed 5ā10" @ 210 in lean condition the odds are against any significant unassisted development. Note that I clearly said āodds are againstā not impossible.
[/quote]
I would disagree just from personal experience. My frat brother who I trained years back played football at TSU. He was a relatively muscular guy from that alone and maybe doing some sit ups at home. Just two months in the gym of training with me caused a 20lbs gain in body weight with no increase in body fatā¦and his shoulders filled out and his chestā¦both of which were lagging.
Someone only training for sports is not going to have traps like mineā¦or even a chest like mine. If they have the genetics to do thatā¦and are sitting at a high weight without ever training those body parts wellā¦they will no doubt go up in body weight.
The only way they wouldnāt is if they were already training like a bodybuilding for their sports training.
What sport is focused on full body development as big as possible?
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
When did your foot hit size 14? Was it that way before 18?[/quote]
Itās been that size since about that age. I know I have a picture of me in college with some Converse on that look like I am wearing banana boats.
Donāt laugh at my big feet, dude.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bpick86 wrote:
When did your foot hit size 14? Was it that way before 18?[/quote]
Itās been that size since about that age. I know I have a picture of me in college with some Converse on that look like I am wearing banana boats.
Donāt laugh at my big feet, dude.[/quote]
Yeah my feet were almost fully grown in junior high before my last growth spurt. So I got to rock the banana boat look for a while. I also broke my left foot in Jr High football and it hasnāt grown since so it is a half size smaller than my right which makes shoe buying difficult.