What Naturals are Truly Capable of...

Training
721

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
Oh, X. Buddy, pal, sonny. Just because one guy (flipcollar) pops in and takes your side doesn’t make you right, champ. Really, what is it at this point, 5 or so guys on your side and the rest of us on the other? You are way outnumbered. And, it’s not because we are unfair or out to get you, it’s because you are the one who is wrong often. I’m sorry, scout.[/quote]

A few posts ago you mentioned that X sounds worse than you guys. Then you post something like this? Just because I’m the only one speaking up about it doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of people reading this that can see the same things I do.

As far as your comment about me having a dog in the fight: my point was that I don’t have a vested interest in any of the posters here. I like most of you guys, and can pull up posts from all of you that I’ve gotten something out of. It doesn’t matter to me who’s right or wrong in this. Since I haven’t been engaged in the conversation, I felt like I had a reasonable perspective on what I read, and I called it like I saw it. You’re welcome to take it how you like.

@Utah - I’m concerning myself with this thread, because I like T Nation. I feel a brotherhood with you, X, and everyone else here. We all came here for the same reason - the iron game. You don’t seem to realize that when 3 or more of the front page threads are essentially shit storms that look just like this, it hurts everyone here. The thread is called ‘What naturals are capable of’. I’m interested in the topic, so I read it. I get this. It sucks. I have a personal interest in this site not sucking. So do the thousands of regulars who aren’t posting in this thread.[/quote]

Thank you…and honestly, I will try to avoid adding to it…but when every single post I write gets this, it becomes impossible.

They seem to be trying to get me to stop posting here for some reason.[/quote]

No, we’re just trying to get you to stop being a dick.

722

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
@X-I agree that many here probably are trying to get you to stop posting here. I, personally, don’t have an opinion on that matter. However, are you really surprised after all the times you’ve argued with them that they want you to go? That’s just what happens when you upset enough people: they rally to try and push you out.[/quote]

It makes me think they feel threatened…because they know if they stop shouting me down in every thread, people will read what I write.

In my opinion, it is why they try so hard. There could be no other reason. Nothing has been written to cause all of this.

You would think I was personally insulting people like they are to me…when it is NOT happening.

I get told I am fat and weak…by people with way less muscle than me. I get told I a “just a dentist” by people with less education.

This shit is old. People can decide for themselves who to listen to. They don’t need you and friends screaming in every thread telling them I am a troll for responding at all or acting like anyone who agrees with me is an alternate account.

Let it go and stay on topic for once.[/quote]

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
I generally find X annoying and argumentative, but why the fuck is everyone so willing to argue semantics in this case. Let’s just get back to the stuff that is entertaining at least. [/quote]

This is all they do. As if it was ever different?

They spend hours literally lying and making shit up just to argue even if they really agree with what was written…and then some of you keep cheering it on…[/quote]

Because you’ve done it for 11 years and people are finally tired of your BS. That’s why it gets cheered on. It’s like seeing the school bully finally get his ass kicked, or the loudmouth, shit-talking drunk getting punched in the face.

It did used to be different in that people used to simply tolerate your attitude. It didn’t have to be this way. You made your bed now you have to lie in it.

[/quote]

Ahh, so in your twisted head, you are going to act in a way you claim you hate?

You do realize what a hypocrite is, right?[/quote]

Absolutely. But the kicker is I only do it to you. An eye for an eye. You, on the other hand, are a complete dick to everyone that disagrees with anything you have to say.

Stop being a prick and you will stop seeing prickish posts from me to you. I’m not going to hold my breath.[/quote]

LOl at this. Apparently telling you the truth is “being a prick” to you.

You can rant about how lean you are, but if I ever mention I have more muscle than you, then that is me acting “superior”.

Got it.

You guys are a waste and detriment to this forum if this is all you are about.

For real.[/quote]

Wrong. The “truth” has nothing to do with it.

THIS is being a prick:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I hope what you just wrote doesn’t make sense to even you.[/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Thank you for that. I have “doctor” in front of my name but there is always basic shit about biology that I missed. I shall credit that for my weight gain.
[/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am a DMD, the type who uses a scalpel and sutures on an almost daily basis.
[/quote]

THIS is being a prick:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:
Or more recently, the famous pre-fatigue thread where you completely got the concept wrong, refused to admit you were wrong, but later changed you’re mind without offering an apology.

first…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why would I want to “pre-fatigue” my chest on CHEST DAY???[/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I guess that explains why mine keeps growing.
I’m doing it wrong.[/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You usually only pre-fatigue a muscle if it is interfering or becoming the optimal mover in an exercise when the goal is another muscle group. [/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That is WHY you pre-exhaust a muscle group…so it fails first and doesn’t interfere with the TARGET muscle group.

That is why pre-exhausting chest on CHEST DAY makes little sense.[/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why would I want to weaken my chest WHEN TRAINING MY CHEST IN PRIORITY??
[/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am laughing at how the definition got switched.
[/quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Now mind you, your own personal experience shows this to be the case…but somehow I got it wrong.

I know this term may be used now in fitness sites, but in bodybuilding historically years ago, I think it meant getting a muscle that fires first when you don’t want it to to tire first.[/quote]

then later…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am also NOT disagreeing with the other concept if anyone is still arguing that for some reason.
[/quote][/quote]

THIS is being a prick:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

Reminds people constantly he’s a doctor.

Brags constantly about his education.

Asks people if they need him to repeat what he just wrote.

Asks people if he needs to write it out in crayon.

Asks people who argue with him in multiple threads if they’re gay.

Asks people if English is their first language.

Constantly tries to convince everyone to accept the inflated image he has of himself.

Is constantly sarcastic and condescending.

But I suppose none of the above is being a prick. It’s just pointing out when people are wrong.[/quote]

Let me end this by quoting the most famous asshole in all of T-Nation:

Let me know if I need to repeat that again lest that basic message be lost again.

  • Professor X
    [/quote]
723

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Still everybody’s fault but X’s? OK…sounds good.[/quote]

Question, why does PX follow us around just to argue with everything we write? It’s as if he wants us to stop posting.

BTW, he doesn’t even post much anymore just in case you haven’t noticed.

724

Well if people actually think Stu and the rest of the good posters are the bad guys and X is getting picked on…I should probably go.

725

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Mez

Px is the one who has said multiple times that dentistry and md are equal. Or at least he continues to imply as well as state claims that dentists know more about pharmacology than a pharmacist. It’s claims like that that cannot go in tested since they are plain wrong.

You can call him a price and asshole ect because that is how he acts. Does that give others a right to do the same? No but it doesn’t excuse his behavior either.

Undergrad course can certainly be harder and more indepth than med school classes. My cell bio and biochem classes were easier in med school than undergrad. I loved it.

And not being able to provide even a basic template is certainly not the way to go. A basic template lays the foundation the. The beginner can tweak from there but just saying lift heavy and eat is no where near good enough.

Also curious what you matched into?

[/quote]

i really dont know how this turned from a thread about naturals to what kind of schooling is harder.

anyway to try and keep this thread some what informative, what would be your recommendations for a newb?

726

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Mez

Px is the one who has said multiple times that dentistry and md are equal. Or at least he continues to imply as well as state claims that dentists know more about pharmacology than a pharmacist. It’s claims like that that cannot go in tested since they are plain wrong.

You can call him a price and asshole ect because that is how he acts. Does that give others a right to do the same? No but it doesn’t excuse his behavior either.

Undergrad course can certainly be harder and more indepth than med school classes. My cell bio and biochem classes were easier in med school than undergrad. I loved it.

And not being able to provide even a basic template is certainly not the way to go. A basic template lays the foundation the. The beginner can tweak from there but just saying lift heavy and eat is no where near good enough.

Also curious what you matched into?

[/quote]

i really dont know how this turned from a thread about naturals to what kind of schooling is harder.

anyway to try and keep this thread some what informative, what would be your recommendations for a newb? [/quote]

I thought the same. Though I like mezcal, I’m puzzled how this turned into a thread about school, especially when no serious schooling is needed to train and look good and perform good.

Kali Muscle did 11 years in the clink eating tuna and Ramen noodles, starting at 19 years old. FIne example of just using some damn ingenuity, rather than an understanding of what goes on at the cellular level.

727

For a newb I would reccomend a strength split and learning how to track food. Get that engrained early. Teach them good choices for food first then slowly transition to iifym if they can handle it. Then basically give them a bunch of templates and tell them to experiment and they like and progress with.

728

So how about someone starts posting some pics of legit well developed naturals so we can get this back on track and give some of us Natty losers some inspirational physiques?

729

[quote]super saiyan wrote:
Back in '82, I used to be able to throw a pigskin a quarter mile. If coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would’ve been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind. [/quote]

SS, I’m not positive but I’m pretty sure you could throw that pigskin over them there mountains if you wanted to.

730

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]mezcal wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Mez

Px is the one who has said multiple times that dentistry and md are equal. Or at least he continues to imply as well as state claims that dentists know more about pharmacology than a pharmacist. It’s claims like that that cannot go in tested since they are plain wrong.

You can call him a price and asshole ect because that is how he acts. Does that give others a right to do the same? No but it doesn’t excuse his behavior either.

Undergrad course can certainly be harder and more indepth than med school classes. My cell bio and biochem classes were easier in med school than undergrad. I loved it.

And not being able to provide even a basic template is certainly not the way to go. A basic template lays the foundation the. The beginner can tweak from there but just saying lift heavy and eat is no where near good enough.

Also curious what you matched into?

[/quote]

Honestly, no where did I interpret a statement of his to say that an MD and a DDS are equivalent, rather, that the initial basic science component of their anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology courses are on the same level. I agree with the latter part of that. Oftentimes, medical and dental students may sit in the same lecture hall for those courses. Of course when we’re talking about the clinical component of the education, they are no where near the same, and I don’t think anyone would make the claim that they are.

Interestingly, however, there are some dental OMFS residencies that require an additional year or two of coursework plus the residency years, and the graduate finishes as a fully licensed OMFS not limited to just endodontics, but as someone able to perform craniofacial or maxillofacial surgery. Just some minor trivia, haha.

I actually find your respect for pharmacy school to be more interesting than anything else. I wouldn’t venture to say that MD/DDS know more about drugs than a pharmacy graduate, however, I wouldn’t argue that they know less. Honestly, with the very small exception of clinical pharmacists whose sole job is to work in the ICU rounding on patients taking 15 meds to find the very, very obscure drug interactions, they are not a critical part of the clinical care team. You will be expected to know every major side effect of every common drug, as well as common life threatening interactions, AND why you would pick certain drugs over others who have the same ultimate result. Very few garden variety pharmacists are able to reconcile the pathophysiological reasoning behind choice of drug within the same class, and you will realize that soon enough.

I agree with what you say in regards to the beginner program, though I would take exception to the thought that a true beginner would know precisely what tweaks would be advantageous to them. For example, how many kids do you think would cut out squats for fear of injury/hard work?

As for me, I matched into anesthesiology at a well known Boston hospital. I am sincerely looking forward to putting internal medicine in the rear view and spending more time in the OR.

EDIT: I forgot to mention J Prufock. Just because I have a low post count doesn’t mean I don’t know who is posting - I’ve been an avid reader of T-Nation since before I even signed up for a forum account. I know who X is, I know he can be a jerk, and I also know there’s a gang of other dudes who gang up on him in nearly every thread he posts. And both sides blame the other for the deterioration of honest discussion on this website. Everyone is sick of it, so I wish they’d just move on. It’s everyone’s fault, not one particular party. Recognize that.[/quote]

Nice match. I am too lazy to keep typing long replies and debate the knowledge of professional schools as we seem to have ver different views. I have never see or heard of any schools mixing classes that is a first. [/quote]

Agreed. Awesome match.

Yeah a few schools in Canada do it. Not gonna name names because I may be wrong.

731

[quote]mezcal wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Mez

Px is the one who has said multiple times that dentistry and md are equal. Or at least he continues to imply as well as state claims that dentists know more about pharmacology than a pharmacist. It’s claims like that that cannot go in tested since they are plain wrong.

You can call him a price and asshole ect because that is how he acts. Does that give others a right to do the same? No but it doesn’t excuse his behavior either.

Undergrad course can certainly be harder and more indepth than med school classes. My cell bio and biochem classes were easier in med school than undergrad. I loved it.

And not being able to provide even a basic template is certainly not the way to go. A basic template lays the foundation the. The beginner can tweak from there but just saying lift heavy and eat is no where near good enough.

Also curious what you matched into?

[/quote]

Honestly, no where did I interpret a statement of his to say that an MD and a DDS are equivalent, rather, that the initial basic science component of their anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology courses are on the same level. I agree with the latter part of that. Oftentimes, medical and dental students may sit in the same lecture hall for those courses. Of course when we’re talking about the clinical component of the education, they are no where near the same, and I don’t think anyone would make the claim that they are. Interestingly, however, there are some dental OMFS residencies that require an additional year or two of coursework plus the residency years, and the graduate finishes as a fully licensed OMFS not limited to just endodontics, but as someone able to perform craniofacial or maxillofacial surgery. Just some minor trivia, haha.

I actually find your respect for pharmacy school to be more interesting than anything else. I wouldn’t venture to say that MD/DDS know more about drugs than a pharmacy graduate, however, I wouldn’t argue that they know less. Honestly, with the very small exception of clinical pharmacists whose sole job is to work in the ICU rounding on patients taking 15 meds to find the very, very obscure drug interactions, they are not a critical part of the clinical care team. You will be expected to know every major side effect of every common drug, as well as common life threatening interactions, AND why you would pick certain drugs over others who have the same ultimate result. Very few garden variety pharmacists are able to reconcile the pathophysiological reasoning behind choice of drug within the same class, and you will realize that soon enough.

I agree with what you say in regards to the beginner program, though I would take exception to the thought that a true beginner would know precisely what tweaks would be advantageous to them. For example, how many kids do you think would cut out squats for fear of injury/hard work?

As for me, I matched into anesthesiology at a well known Boston hospital. I am sincerely looking forward to putting internal medicine in the rear view and spending more time in the OR.

EDIT: I forgot to mention J Prufock. Just because I have a low post count doesn’t mean I don’t know who is posting - I’ve been an avid reader of T-Nation since before I even signed up for a forum account. I know who X is, I know he can be a jerk, and I also know there’s a gang of other dudes who gang up on him in nearly every thread he posts. And both sides blame the other for the deterioration of honest discussion on this website. Everyone is sick of it, so I wish they’d just move on. It’s everyone’s fault, not one particular party. Recognize that.[/quote]

Best post again.

Nowhere did I write that dental school and med school are EXACTLY THE SAME. That is a flat out lie. What was said is that I am a DDS which includes the basic sciences of med school students…and yes, we took gross anatomy WITH the med students. Our dental school was in walking distance of the med school so we shared facilities.

Anyone saying anything else is lying at this point.

They are acting like bullies while crying about bullies when no one is attacking them.

It is way past played out.

732

[quote]mezcal wrote:

[quote]
The Mighty Stu wrote:
There are people on this site who are friendly, humble, and knowledgeable as can be verified via objective means (PL meets, BBing contests, Degrees and Certifications in Nutrition, Kinesiology and fields specific to what gets discussed, not 'Well, Biology is Biology") [/quote]

I suppose this is where the problem originated and the original intent was lost. The objective means that you have cited, when we’re talking about knowledge of bodybuilding, are absolutely appropriate. When it’s discussion of the human body, however, or issues of physiology, anatomy, etc., I would defer all of those certifications and accolades to someone who completed a graduate medical education. Again, though, the nitpicking pollutes the message ever so slightly in each post, so that by 10 pages later no one knows what the hell they’re even discussing anymore. [/quote]

Fucking brilliant. That is what I was trying to get across. I am not sure how that can be contested.

733

[quote]Waittz wrote:
So how about someone starts posting some pics of legit well developed naturals so we can get this back on track and give some of us Natty losers some inspirational physiques? [/quote]

100% all naturale

734

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Well, a noob hasn’t been doing anything so far. Hence he’ a noob. Care to part with advice for someone who’s done nothing so far, and therefore hasn’t made any progress. [/quote]

Dear Lord. What is with you and hypotheticals? My cousin is staying with me for a while and I am training him now. He wasn’t training before…but I don’t know many people who really have an affinity for real size who have NEVER worked out a day in their lives.

Your problem is using some made up person so you can sit there and critique a sheet of paper.

That’s lame and isn’t reality.

I started him in the gym this past week judging his weight to be used by how much he was straining in the gym. I told him to start trying to make sure he eats at least 3 good meals a day. The exact specifics of each meal are less important than the action itself considering he rarely eats even that often and needs to make that alone a priority.

Changes will be made gradually beyond that.

You see, your problem is expecting me to jump through hoops so you can have more to complain about.

None of that is any indication of real world knowledge.

Yeah, that would be false. You keep pushing this bs “you will not part with the information” as if what I am writing isn’t being understood.

735

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
So how about someone starts posting some pics of legit well developed naturals so we can get this back on track and give some of us Natty losers some inspirational physiques? [/quote]

100% all naturale[/quote]

Cereals? Who is that man?

736

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
For a newb I would reccomend a strength split and learning how to track food. Get that engrained early. Teach them good choices for food first then slowly transition to iifym if they can handle it. Then basically give them a bunch of templates and tell them to experiment and they like and progress with. [/quote]
^this

737

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
For a newb I would reccomend a strength split and learning how to track food. Get that engrained early. Teach them good choices for food first then slowly transition to iifym if they can handle it. Then basically give them a bunch of templates and tell them to experiment and they like and progress with. [/quote]

IMO this /thread a lot of threads.

738

[quote]socrplyr09 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Man, this thread blew up today.

I just want to throw this out there, in case guys like Smashing Weights, Steven Alex, Saiyan, Utah, haven’t realized it yet:

You guys come off FAR worse than X at this point. It’s not even close. You’re nitpicking the fuck out of every little thing he says. It’s truly ridiculous how you guys want to pick apart his school curriculum. Is it really a worthwhile argument to keep up? You guys sound like fucking babies. I seriously challenge all of you guys to stop posting for 2 days, then read your own parts in this thread, and tell me that you honestly believe you’re on the right side of this.

I have absolutely no dog in this fight, which is why I’m posting. I have enjoyed posts from pretty much everyone participating in this thread in the past. X is one of 2 guys I remember reading since 2003 that are still here. The other is Thibs. I got a lot out of X’s posts for years, and while you guys can say he doesn’t help anyone, I can assure you that his posting style, and specific advice helped me. His progress inspired me in part because he went from a tiny dude to huge. And I respected the fact that he made his progress while balancing rigorous course work, followed by his current career. I think Saiyan posts some of the funniest shit on the internet, apart from this thread, and I also respect his profession. Utah is generally level-headed and sensible, and he’s also clearly done well outside the gym. And yet you all seem to suck at life in this and other related threads.

I hope this dies soon, it’s not good for anyone here.[/quote]

Agree with this for the most part

I’m unbiased as I do not know anyone in this thread and I never really post outside my training log, but the Professor-haters are looking really weak and childish in this thread.

From what I have read Prof is well educated, appears to be large and muscular, and his posts are pretty entertaining. He may not look like a bodybuilder, but very few people actually want to look like a bodybuilder and he appears to have a lot of muscle mass.

Honestly, I don’t agree with everything the Prof posts, but it is really pathetic how all of his posts are being attacked. I mean, attack the content in his posts if you think it is invalid, but attacking the poster is really not a good look and makes you appear desperate.

Anyways, just thought I would throw my opinion out there.

Peace[/quote]

I appreciate this post.

I will also try to avoid adding to this nonsense if I can actually post on a thread topic without it happening.

739

There are obvious limits to building muscle naturally. Pretty much, between what natural bodybuilders and hard training guys posting on forums is enough for a broad strokes idea. The Lyle McDonald post seems pretty accurate as well. It’s ridiculous to say that understanding these limits is somehow holding people back. Just for the simple reason that most people who train hard and eat right don’t even get close to these limits. The limits are typically set by guys with the best genetics to begin with, so I don’t see how they could serve as a glass ceiling for people.

If some hypothetical guy has the ability to surpass these limits to any noticeable extent, guess what? That guy will have no trouble at least coming close to them in the first place. It will be a guy with great genetics as well.

The other thing is that the limits are pretty good. You can look decently muscular and lean as a natural, even with sub-par(read: average) genetics. Saying one’s personal limits - especially after years of training - are some nebulous unknown is(aside from being delusional) encouraging bulking up for decades, only to look pretty much the same. But life is short. You get most of your progress in the first 2-3years of bodybuilding training. Everything after that are just small corrections and tweaks. You want to spend the majority of your life enjoying your body and looking your best, rather than wasting decades in permabulk land ‘building’ it is not a good way to go.

Limits encourage staying skinny? Well, then ‘no limits’ encourages staying fat. Whenever two extremes exist, the truth is in the middle.

I guess this is off-topic at this point…

740

[quote]Bauber wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
So how about someone starts posting some pics of legit well developed naturals so we can get this back on track and give some of us Natty losers some inspirational physiques? [/quote]

100% all naturale[/quote]

When you got up to 225 naturally, what was your bodyfat? Abs visible?