steveo5801,
I actually have a background in interpreting “scriptures” it was called “studying law” but the process was more or less the same.
If you honestly believe that you can get some sort of absolute truth out of a text instead of various interpretations of it, you are, how shall I put this, wrong.
[quote]orion wrote:
steveo5801,
I actually have a background in interpreting “scriptures” it was called “studying law” but the process was more or less the same.
If you honestly believe that you can get some sort of absolute truth out of a text instead of various interpretations of it, you are, how shall I put this, wrong.
[/quote]
Wow, not that’s a really convincing argument counsellor – just say “you’re wrong” and then you must be right. Incredible!
You might be correct if the Scripture was an ordinary book with an ordinary author. But with God as its Ultimate Author and having God’s Spirit as the Ultimate teacher, Absloute Scriptural Truth is possible to discern.
Read John chapters 14 through 17 and see what God says about this. After all His is the Wodnerful Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
orion wrote:
steveo5801,
I actually have a background in interpreting “scriptures” it was called “studying law” but the process was more or less the same.
If you honestly believe that you can get some sort of absolute truth out of a text instead of various interpretations of it, you are, how shall I put this, wrong.
Wow, not that’s a really convincing argument counsellor – just say “you’re wrong” and then you must be right. Incredible!
You might be correct if the Scripture was an ordinary book with an ordinary author. But with God as its Ultimate Author and having God’s Spirit as the Ultimate teacher, Absloute Scriptural Truth is possible to discern.
Read John chapters 14 through 17 and see what God says about this. After all His is the Wodnerful Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).
[/quote]
I just thought it was funny that the way you think the bible should be interpreted was pretty much the same way one would (or at least should) approach a piece of legislature.
You know, grammar, context and so on…
So if I understand this correctly, you cannot interpret the bible in a wrong way if you are guided by the Holy Spirit while interpreting it…
Unfortunately, there are others who seem to disagree with you on some issues, but they probably think they are guided as well…
There might even be people who think they are guided but aren?t and those that would be, that are to modest to assume they are…
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Absolute truth (which has to exist)
Why?
Why not?[/quote]
You’re the one who’s affirming that absolute truth must exist. I disagree, as far as moral values are concerned.
Is it that hard to state your case?
You’re 47 years old, have supposedly thought long and hard about this, been a strong believer for 11 years because of your love and lust for “Truth” and you can’t even articulate why it must (not might) exist? That’s pathetic.
“A small mind is easily filled with faith.”
…unless you’d like to revise your answer?
[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Absolute truth (which has to exist)
Why?
Why not?
You’re the one who’s affirming that absolute truth must exist. I disagree, as far as moral values are concerned.
Is it that hard to state your case?
You’re 47 years old, have supposedly thought long and hard about this, been a strong believer for 11 years because of your love and lust for “Truth” and you can’t even articulate why it must (not might) exist? That’s pathetic.
“A small mind is easily filled with faith.”
…unless you’d like to revise your answer?
[/quote]
You sound a bit angry for a person with a moniker “pookie.” Calm down, and take a slow, long deep breath.
Now, it was you who asked the question “why,” I was giving you the opportunity to articulate why you think Absolute Moral Truth doesn’t exist.
The fact that I can or cannot explain something should not deter you from explaining your side of things. I did want this thread to be interactive and not just be “preaching” at people.
So, now, exactly where to you get the idea that Moral Absolute Truth doesn’t exist. When you have stated all of your reasons, I will be glad to use my “small mind” and give you “big answers.”
You know, its Sunday and you could be a bit more kind on the Lord’s Day 
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
To try to refute unbeliving refutations of the Bible would be beyond the scope of what I can do here. That being said, there are answers for each one if you search them out dilligently. The Bible must be understood and read in its grammatical, historical, and contextual basis.[/quote]
I’ve read most of the “refutations” for those contradictions and they’re unconvincing at best, mostly ridiculous. The amount of verbal and mental gymnastic and context switching and other far-fetched justifications one has to accept to reconcile those contradictory passages is simply laughable.
A perfect God inspiring a Book of his True Word should have no problem making Himself clear. Unless the Bible isn’t divinely inspired, but instead the work of ordinary men, over many, many years.
Guess which of those two possibilities the facts fit best?
Yes, ignore the argument and comment on the URL. Always the same tactics from believers. Can’t refute the arguments, then attack the source; the location of the source; the font, the colors, etc.
I used to waste time pointing out the contradictions in long form, but since it always comes back to the same cop-outs (basically, you have to “interpret” until the passages means something completely different that what the actual words say) that I now save time a post a link. I still haven’t seen a valid refutation of any of those contradictions, much less all of them. How can the Book of Truth be so filled with errors?
Of course, I lack the proper “Holy Spirit” mind-numbing apparatus required to see the “Truth.”
[quote]But without faith, it is impossible to please Him…" Hebrews 11:6
“But the fearful, and unbelieving [infidels], and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8[/quote]
Scare me into believing with scripture? Yup, that’ll work.
Ever wonder why it is so hard to find secular, non-religious sources that support what is written in the Bible? Why is it that “Absolute Truth” is so difficult to verify? Shouldn’t Truth, especially the absolute one, be self-evident and impossible to dismiss?
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got to go and kill one of my kids. What can I do, she mouthed off to me this morning and I can’t refute the truth of the Bible:
“For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.”
Leviticus, 20:9
Hey Pookie,
The next time you train hard in the gym to hit a PR,think about it.Wouldn’t you have faith in your training that you will make that lift.A person can have faith with or without the weak mind.The weak mind comes from NOT working it out.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
This is just not true. When you do get the Spirit of God, through salvation in Jesus, then you understand that God is true and His Word is true. Of course from a perspective of those who have not been “born again” it does seem circular and I agree that I held these same views before I came to faith.
Ultimately, Absolute Truth needs to be apprehended via faith and not human logic alone. That being said, again we don’t just ‘check our brains’ at the door, but I know how this looks to you because more than 11 years ago, I would have posted the same thing.[/quote]
Bunk. Truth is truth. Ever seen a mathematical proof? You don’t have to “believe” it true, it can be demonstrated to be true, AKA proven. You have to accept it or you’re simply a stubborn moron. And even if you do deny its truth; the proof still stands as true and you’re wrong. That’s truth.
A Truth that’s dependent on previously accepting parts of it as “True” can’t be right. I don’t believe in God (any of them) and therefore don’t accept any of what follows from it (Hell, the Bible, the Holy Spirit, virgin births, etc.) but by your own definition, unless I accept the Holy Spirit, I can’t understand the Bible. Again, unless I accept part of the fairy tale as fact, then the rest of it won’t make sense.
If that’s your idea of “Absolute Truth”, then it is truly a pathetic one.
It also pretty much concludes the argument right there. Since your “absolute” Truth cannot stand on it’s own, then any other truth that stands alone trumps your “truth”, showing it not to be “absolute.”
And since the Word of God could not, by definition, be any other thing than the “Absolute Truth” we then show that the Bible and the whole system of deities, spirit, etc. surrounding it is wholly made up.
You can choose to believe it; but that belief has the same value as a children’s belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. A amusing tale, but completely unrelated to reality.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
You sound a bit angry for a person with a moniker “pookie.” Calm down, and take a slow, long deep breath. [/quote]
First the URLs, now the moniker. Do you plan on eventually getting to the meat of the matter?
I think a lot of things don’t exist. I’m quite sure you also think a lot of things don’t exist. We’ll be here for years if we have to justify everything we don’t believe to exist.
If I claim that invisible ninja monkeys make the world work as it does, don’t you think the onus would be on me to prove the existence of those invisible ninja monkeys? Or can I simply affirm whatever crap I can make up and throw the burden upon you to show I’m wrong?
If that’s the case, I’d like to introduce you the real Creator: The Flying Spaghetti Monster. http://www.venganza.org/ Explain why you don’t accept him as your True Creator.
Great. A whole thread about “The Truth” and you cannot explain why you believe an absolute moral truth must exist?
Just one reason: There exists no Moral Absolute Truth source. Nothing in the universe indicates any moral value, much less absolute ones. Whatever law we’ve got, we’ve made’em up ourselves. And that’s the best we’ll get.
And no, it is not that hard to establish rules to govern the lives of men and insure that everyone pretty much leads a happy and fulfilling life.
We’ve already done it: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Also note that we cover more situation than the incomplete and lackluster “10 commandments” of which 4 are wasted on “worship me-me-me!”
[quote]You know, its Sunday and you could be a bit more kind on the Lord’s Day
[/quote]
I’m dressed in full pirate regalia as I type this. I’m sure the Flying Spaghetti Lord is pleased.
[quote]Jimmy T wrote:
Hey Pookie,
The next time you train hard in the gym to hit a PR,think about it.Wouldn’t you have faith in your training that you will make that lift.A person can have faith with or without the weak mind.The weak mind comes from NOT working it out.[/quote]
That’s not faith. That’s trust. I trust I can make that PR because I’ve trained hard, eaten right and followed my plan to break my previous PR.
Faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof; or even belief in something contrary to proof.
In your example, I’ve broken previous PRs thru a combination of training and nutrition. Breaking another one doesn’t require any “faith”, just hard work and discipline.
[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
This is just not true. When you do get the Spirit of God, through salvation in Jesus, then you understand that God is true and His Word is true. Of course from a perspective of those who have not been “born again” it does seem circular and I agree that I held these same views before I came to faith.
Ultimately, Absolute Truth needs to be apprehended via faith and not human logic alone. That being said, again we don’t just ‘check our brains’ at the door, but I know how this looks to you because more than 11 years ago, I would have posted the same thing.
Bunk. Truth is truth. Ever seen a mathematical proof? You don’t have to “believe” it true, it can be demonstrated to be true, AKA proven. You have to accept it or you’re simply a stubborn moron. And even if you do deny its truth; the proof still stands as true and you’re wrong. That’s truth.
A Truth that’s dependent on previously accepting parts of it as “True” can’t be right. I don’t believe in God (any of them) and therefore don’t accept any of what follows from it (Hell, the Bible, the Holy Spirit, virgin births, etc.) but by your own definition, unless I accept the Holy Spirit, I can’t understand the Bible. Again, unless I accept part of the fairy tale as fact, then the rest of it won’t make sense.
If that’s your idea of “Absolute Truth”, then it is truly a pathetic one.
It also pretty much concludes the argument right there. Since your “absolute” Truth cannot stand on it’s own, then any other truth that stands alone trumps your “truth”, showing it not to be “absolute.”
And since the Word of God could not, by definition, be any other thing than the “Absolute Truth” we then show that the Bible and the whole system of deities, spirit, etc. surrounding it is wholly made up.
You can choose to believe it; but that belief has the same value as a children’s belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. A amusing tale, but completely unrelated to reality.
[/quote]
A couple of points…
(1) Whether or not someone, like yourself, “believes” in something or not, doesn’t make the thing less truthful or not the truth. Absolute Truth transcends man’s beliefs.
(2) Yes, as a mathematics teacher I am very aware of how mathematical proofs work. However, even mathematical systems have axioms and postulates that are accepted as being absolute truth with no proof for reasons either than they are self-evident, or cannot be proven. Again, just because something cannot be formally proven does not make it less truthful.
(3) Using Leviticus and “applying” it to today is ridiculous as I have written before on this thread. The Bible needs to be understood in its Historical Context. If you would read Leviticus, you would see that the laws laid down by God were for the Nation Israel, in the Land of Israel, under a Theocracy. This is not where you or I live right now, and therefore does not apply as law. However, there are universal laws of God that do apply, such as capital punishment for murder. This law, for example, was stated in Genesis and pre-dates the law of Moses and is intended for all time. It is also repeated in the NT, therefore showing it does apply.
Then you conclude your tired diatribe with the “Santa Claus” and “Tooth Fairy” argument, which seeks to reduce what I believe to some comical form of child’s play. Nice ploy, but unfortunately in intellecutal argumentation it simply doesn’t fly.
So, the argument is not “concluded right there,” because (and I will use a math expression since you seem fond of mathematics as I am):
Zero + Zero + Zero… = Zero!
God’s Truth absolutely stands on its own. “In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.” See after centuries of trying to disprove it, it is still around…
Take care!
[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
You sound a bit angry for a person with a moniker “pookie.” Calm down, and take a slow, long deep breath.
First the URLs, now the moniker. Do you plan on eventually getting to the meat of the matter?
Now, it was you who asked the question “why,” I was giving you the opportunity to articulate why you think Absolute Moral Truth doesn’t exist.
I think a lot of things don’t exist. I’m quite sure you also think a lot of things don’t exist. We’ll be here for years if we have to justify everything we don’t believe to exist.
If I claim that invisible ninja monkeys make the world work as it does, don’t you think the onus would be on me to prove the existence of those invisible ninja monkeys? Or can I simply affirm whatever crap I can make up and throw the burden upon you to show I’m wrong?
If that’s the case, I’d like to introduce you the real Creator: The Flying Spaghetti Monster. http://www.venganza.org/ Explain why you don’t accept him as your True Creator.
The fact that I can or cannot explain something should not deter you from explaining your side of things. I did want this thread to be interactive and not just be “preaching” at people.
Great. A whole thread about “The Truth” and you cannot explain why you believe an absolute moral truth must exist?
So, now, exactly where to you get the idea that Moral Absolute Truth doesn’t exist. When you have stated all of your reasons, I will be glad to use my “small mind” and give you “big answers.”
Just one reason: There exists no Moral Absolute Truth source. Nothing in the universe indicates any moral value, much less absolute ones. Whatever law we’ve got, we’ve made’em up ourselves. And that’s the best we’ll get.
And no, it is not that hard to establish rules to govern the lives of men and insure that everyone pretty much leads a happy and fulfilling life.
We’ve already done it: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Also note that we cover more situation than the incomplete and lackluster “10 commandments” of which 4 are wasted on “worship me-me-me!”
You know, its Sunday and you could be a bit more kind on the Lord’s Day
I’m dressed in full pirate regalia as I type this. I’m sure the Flying Spaghetti Lord is pleased.[/quote]
Pookie,
You must not be reading all of my responses on this thread. Everything I have written, taken together, shows why I believe that Moral Absolute Truth exists and God is the Truth Giver.
You have given no reasons why you believe otherwise, except to attack my faith, my Bible, and my God. That’s OK – I’m a big boy and I’ll get over it.
Now, I was not attacking your moniker as such, but only expressing my concern for your apparent anger at even the notion of God’s existence and His Truth. The anger that comes through here IS in contrast to a moniker that sounds very nice and calm. I am wondering what happend in your life thus far to make you so angry at God? That’s all. I am just concerned – kill me because I care…
Now, if you want to put your trust in the morally and politically corrupt United Nations, you go right ahead…
…“but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD…” Joshua 24:15
[quote]pookie wrote:
And no, it is not that hard to establish rules to govern the lives of men and insure that everyone pretty much leads a happy and fulfilling life.
[/quote]
Not that hard?
Pretty much impossible is more like it, given that our genetic programming is designed to force us to compete with each other.
Homo homini lupus, that general direction…
Steveo,
I still think you need to explain why different people of faith do not have the same interpretations of “the truth”.
An absolute truth must be absolute!
People of faith, around the world, to this very day, routinely disagree on how the word is to be interpreted.
Honestly, if that is what you call absolute truth, it is meaningless because nobody can ascertain it’s meaning and have others agree.
This is a serious flaw in the theory of absolute truth!
A good explanation for this, that I have put forth a few times, is that the writings may have been inspired, but that they were done by man. As such, they contain the flaws that all works of man contain.
Do you really believe that mankind would require faith at all if he was not flawed? If is in fact our flaws that deny us the knowledge of any absolute truth and it is why Christ had to die for us and why we need to have faith.
Faith is an important word in religion. Faith means that we must believe that which WE CANNOT KNOW. It is the basis of religion. I submit that all religions of faith are predicated on the fact that absolute truth is denied to humans. We are flawed and as such require faith.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
(1) Whether or not someone, like yourself, “believes” in something or not, doesn’t make the thing less truthful or not the truth. Absolute Truth transcends man’s beliefs.[/quote]
Exactly. Truth, especially in it’s absolute form, should be irrefutable, completely self-evident and unnaissable. God and his Bible are none of those.
You don’t prove axiom because doing so would be trival and redundant, as they are self-evident. Again, neither God nor the Bible are self-evident. They claim to be, but objectively aren’t. Just saying “This is the Truth” doesn’t make it so.
So at so time, it was a good idea to kill a child because he’d been disrespectful? You can really say that honestly and believe in the wisdom behind that?
Show me axioms supporting the Bible or God, and we’ll talk. As far as I can tell, there is no self-evident truth in the Bible. At least, none relating to the whole belief system.
It is quite similar though. As a child believes in Santa because he’s been taught about him and doesn’t think to question any of the underlying assumptions, people of faith do the same thing. Accept a bunch of premises without question because “It is so”.
[quote]So, the argument is not “concluded right there,” because (and I will use a math expression since you seem fond of mathematics as I am):
Zero + Zero + Zero… = Zero!
God’s Truth absolutely stands on its own. “In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.” See after centuries of trying to disprove it, it is still around…
Take care!
[/quote]
Again, the burden is not on disproving it, it is on proving it in the first place. Proving a negative is never required in any serious science or other sphere of knowledge. Only in religion, it seems, does one claim something and have it stand as true by the simple fact of claiming it such.
Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
[quote]orion wrote:
Not that hard?
Pretty much impossible is more like it, given that our genetic programming is designed to force us to compete with each other.
Homo homini lupus, that general direction…
[/quote]
That might be true if we were only gene-programmed responses. But we have the ability to think and reason. It is possible to reason that in the long term, cooperation with each other will benefit us more, even individually, than pure one-on-one competition.
Even amongst animals, the “pack” or “pride” of similar animals will accept to not compete against each other so as to increase the chance of survival for the group. So even thru pure naturally selected behavior, cooperation amongst a group trumps pure individuality.
Being able to think and reason, we can do event better. We can proclaim laws that insure a good, prosperous life for the majority and that restrict unwanted behavior.
It’s not rocket science.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Jimmy T wrote:
Hey Pookie,
The next time you train hard in the gym to hit a PR,think about it.Wouldn’t you have faith in your training that you will make that lift.A person can have faith with or without the weak mind.The weak mind comes from NOT working it out.
That’s not faith. That’s trust. I trust I can make that PR because I’ve trained hard, eaten right and followed my plan to break my previous PR.
Faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof; or even belief in something contrary to proof.
In your example, I’ve broken previous PRs thru a combination of training and nutrition. Breaking another one doesn’t require any “faith”, just hard work and discipline.
[/quote]
Pookie,
There is a component of faith in my opinion.So, we agree to disagree.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
You must not be reading all of my responses on this thread. Everything I have written, taken together, shows why I believe that Moral Absolute Truth exists and God is the Truth Giver. [/quote]
I get the part where you believe in the Absolute Moral Truth and God. I missed the “why” part. I’ve been known to be a little dense at times, so if you would be so kind as to spell it out for me…
[quote]You have given no reasons why you believe otherwise, except to attack my faith, my Bible, and my God. That’s OK – I’m a big boy and I’ll get over it.
Now, I was not attacking your moniker as such, but only expressing my concern for your apparent anger at even the notion of God’s existence and His Truth.[/quote]
You’re reading annoyance as anger. It is pointless to be angry at what is, as far as I can tell, an imaginary being.
It is annoying, though, to have believers of fairy tale support legislation that forces their backwards view on all.
Or to see the immense misery and suffering that occurs in some part of the world because religious people refuse to use birth control…
I’m appaled by the unnecessary suffering and misery caused by belief in stupidities. There’s no point in being angry at God, at is is self-evident that no infinitely loving God would cause so much pain and death to his favored creation, ergo, no God exists.
That the U.N. has other problems has no bearing on the validity of the document. Again, you try to evade the argument by attacking some peripheral fact. Instead, why don’t you read that secular document and tell me what’s wrong with it?
We’d save a lot of back and forth if you didn’t concern yourself so much with URLs, monikers and other piffles. For someone who claims to be interested in the truth, you sure go out of your way to avoid any of it.
“He that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16
Damn.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Steveo,
I still think you need to explain why different people of faith do not have the same interpretations of “the truth”.
An absolute truth must be absolute![/quote]
Also note that much lesser truths can easily be demonstrated and proven. One wonders how the “Absolute Truth” could be so intractable. Unless there is no such thing, of course.
With over 3000 different faiths and variations within, for any given faith, there is a majority of people on the Earth that believe differently than any one group of believer does. God sure does a bang-up job of getting his word out.
A common comment that comes up when stating the above, is that a majority of people believe in something, and that billions of people can’t be wrong.
It does appear that all religious “truths” suffer from the same problems. In so doing, they all show themselves to be anything but absolute. Probably anything but truth even.
Another equally good explanation is that there never was any divine inspiration and that there are only tales and stories given an air of respectability by being ancient and having mysterious unnamed sources.
Cloaking it all up with words like “Sacred” and “Holy” helps stop the questions and critics.
It always surprises me that a God so petty and small as the one from the Bible evokes any kind of awe in anyone.
That an omnipotent and omniscient being would have to play such silly games with his creation is simply ridiculous.
Why put a forbiden Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, when you already know Eve’s going to eat from it?
Why punish Eve for doing so, when she was previously “innocent”, ignorant of the difference between Good and Evil, and as such incapable of arriving at correct moral decisions?
Why punish all of Humanity for ever because Eve chose badly?
Why later change your mind and get your Son sacrificed so that he could “save” everyone you’d previously damned.
An omniscient being does not change his mind. No new facts can come to light to have you revise a decision…
Etc, etc. It requires serious mental damage to be able to read the Bible and accept it as any kind of truth while at the same time thinking you are being honest with yourself.
The search for absolute truth is not answered thru religion. Religion simply makes up all the answer it needs and then works at quieting the doubters.
The real search for the absolute truth is done through science and physics. Simply behold the technological advances made since the early Renaissance from the knowledge we’ve acquired through the scientific method. A method that requires you to believe nothing apriori and that encourages you to question and reject current knowledge, provided you can supply better knowledge to replace it.
[quote]Jimmy T wrote:
There is a component of faith in my opinion.So, we agree to disagree.[/quote]
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’