What Is Truth?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
…

What I disagree, of course, is that the Bible not being the absolute Word of God. Now it is good that you beleive that the Bible “contains” truth, whereas I believe that it is the whole truth. Again, the ball is in your court to prove this by disproving some part of the Bible. If you can, then you would be correct; if you cannot, then God is correct.
[/quote]

Cool, we have a start. However, I do not think your little challenge is realistic.

It is only valid in that if I can disprove the bible then it could not be the whole truth. My human failing if I cannot do this is not proof that the bible is the whole truth.

Beware, you are trying to set yourself up for an easy victory. My failing would be just that, a human failing, which would prove nothing at all, except perhaps that I am human.

[quote]Challenge: What parts of the Bible are true and what parts aren’t? Tell us if you can.
[/quote]

My concern, again, is that the bible was written by humans, using their own language and capabilities. Jesus did not write the bible, but his apostles wrote things, describing his words and his actions.

Did they leave anything out? Did they add anything in? Did they personally make any interpretations? Did they make any errors in recall? Remember, these are men doing the writing, and none of them claim that God was directly speaking to them, as was done for Moses.

Let me return your own question to you with a slight twist.

If the bible is the absolute truth, the word of God, then tell me how different people of faith, different pious Christians, interpret it differently than one another. Surely the word of God will be an absolute truth and not one that varies based on who is reading it?

Challenge: Tell me what the absolute truth is, explicitly, so that there can be no disagreement between individuals as to what is the correct course of action for any situation. If you can, then you have the absolute truth. If you can’t, then you don’t.

122

I don’t think we have any disagreement here, my point being essentially that length, or even more simply velocity is not an absolute quantity, but rather length/gamma is absolute (for all inertial frames) (while neither length nor gamma alone is absolute).

One thought-the age of the universe is also not absolute, and relativity proves this. A day is not absolute, but depends upon the frame of reference. In other words, a literal Genesis cannot be universally true because a 24 hour day will have a different meaning depending upon the relative motion of those counting the hours.

[quote]Mordred wrote:
This only goes towards my point though. Assuming you know the above, and are capable of making the calculations for different reference frames, how are we to answer the basic question…what is the length of the object?

The answer is that the question itself can only be made sense of if we define the reference frame. Each different reference frame will produce a different result, and they are all equally valid (assuming they are inertial reference frames of course, small point there). So what is the TRUE length of the object?

Does this clear anything up for you steveo5801? Can you be more specific as to your problem with the question?

[/quote]

123

Dermo:It is the height of egotism to assume that only your religion can reach the Aboslute Truth. Fundamentalism, whether Christian or Muslim, is inherently exclusionary. Jesus was about love and acceptance, not hate and intolerance.
Jesus did exclude people. His time spent on Earth was that he was the Son of God and he is the truth, the way and the light. So he was either insane or he was telling the truth.

I would like to add that Christianity is not a Religon. It doesn’t contain rituals and it boils down to accepting Christ as your savior and growing in his word. I have never tried to convince or impose my beliefs on anyone.

Lets remember people in general will try to impose their will no matter what background. Peta, world liberation front, and do not forget the men who flew those planes into the WTC. The cuase Islam. Let me add that if I touch a hot fire that I abolutely burned myself. Gravity is also an absolute. Just try and jump out of plane without a parachute.

124

There are central doctrines, those things which the Bible makes crystal clear. Here is a good summary:

The Bible - We believe the Bible to be the complete Word of God; that the sixty-six Books, as originally written, comprising the Old and New Testaments were written by chosen men of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and are entirely free from error: that the Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice and is the basis of Christian union.

God - We believe in one God, who is the Creator of all, eternally existent as God, the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ - We believe that Jesus Christ came as God in the flesh, that He was born of the Virgin Mary, lived a sinless and perfect human life, suffered and died upon the cross for the sin of the world, arose bodily from the grave, and ascended triumphantly into heaven as our Mediator from where we joyously await His return.

The Holy Spirit - We believe in the personality of the Holy Spirit and that His ministry is to reveal Christ to men, to convict of sin, to regenerate repentant sinners, and to sanctify and empower the lives of the redeemed.

Satan - We believe that Satan exists as an evil personality, the originator of sin, the arch-enemy of God and man. That he is destined to final defeat at the hands of the Son of God and to suffer eternal punishment in a place prepared for him and the fallen angles.

Man - We believe that man was created in the image of God, but by willful transgression became sinful and is justly under the condemnation and wrath of the Almighty God. Man is utterly incapacitated to receive the grace of God apart from the quickening of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation - We believe that there is one Mediator between God and man - Jesus Christ. The purpose of His coming was to redeem man from the judgment and power of sin and to reconcile him to God. Through the shedding of His blood, Christ provided the one sufficient sacrifice for sin and established God’s New Covenant.

We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, convicts man of his sin and need for salvation. Those who repent of their sin and trust in Christ as Savior and Lord receive forgiveness. By the power of the Holy Spirit they are born into the family of God and receive the assurance of salvation. Saving faith involves a surrender of the will to Christ, a complete trust in Him, and a joyful obedience of his Word as a faithful disciple.

Future Things - We believe in the visible, personal, bodily and glorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the resurrection of the just and the unjust, in the eternal blessedness of the redeemed, and in the judgment an conscious eternal punishment of the wicked.

Local Church - We believe that the membership of a New Testament Church is a body of baptized believers, associated for worship, service, and the spread of the Gospel of the grace of God to all the world.

Ordinances - We believe that in the New Testament there are only two ordinances for the church:

Baptism - We believe that Christians should obey their Lord’s command to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To qualify for baptism, one must repent of sin and trust Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and Lord.

The Lord’s Supper - The recurring memorial wherein the believer pursuing a right relationship with God partakes of two symbols, the bread and the cup, which symbolizes the Lord’s body and shed blood, proclaiming His death until he returns.

There are other things which the Bible is less clear on. These would include things such as Christian pacifism, the role of signs and wonders and the role of tongues in the believers life, exactly how the end times will play out, and the whole predestination issue (for the record, I am a Calvinist, but most of the believers I have ever met are not).

125

[quote]Dex wrote:
I would like to add that Christianity is not a Religon. It doesn’t contain rituals and it boils down to accepting Christ as your savior and growing in his word. I have never tried to convince or impose my beliefs on anyone.
[/quote]

What is a ritual? Jesus practiced and instituted several things that I think you would call rituals-fasting, being baptised, washing feet, being buried, anointing, communion, laying on of hands, and he certainly followed the Jewish law when he could.

The problem is thinking of rituals as being mere symbols, rather than a part of what is real.

126

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
I would like to distance myself a bit from extol’s points here. I hope that this doesn’t give those who wish to “prove” God wrong by showing that even Christians may disagree a bit. Just like with anything human, we are all on different levels of Biblical understanding and walk with God.

That being said, there are those who assert that Christ died for a group of people called the “elect” and nobody else. This belief is called “Calvinism” after John Calvin who first asserted these views.
[/quote]

Actually, John Calvin believed that Christ died for everyone without exception, including those who perish. In this, he was of one mind with his universal atonement brothers in satan. See the Calvin quotes below:

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him.” [Commentary on Romans 5:18]

Calvin is here saying that although Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, yet all do not receive Him. If he had just said, “Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world,” we could have considered the possibility that he could have meant “the whole world of the Jews and Gentiles” or “the whole world of the elect” and not everyone without exception. But he goes on to say that “all do not receive him,” which means that he believed that Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, including all who do not receive him.

“True it is that the effect of His death comes not to the whole world. Nevertheless, forasmuch as it is not in us to discern between the righteous and the sinners that go to destruction, but that Jesus Christ has suffered His death and passion as well for them as for us, therefore it behoves us to labour to bring every man to salvation, that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ may be available to them …” [Sermon CXVI on the Book of Job (31:29-32)]

Calvin is here saying that Jesus Christ has suffered His death and passion for the righteous as well as the sinners that go to destruction. (Note also that Calvin used the term “whole world” to mean everyone without exception.)

One more very popular, and very influential Calvinist was a Presbyterian theologian by the name of Charles Hodge. Here is his take on what Calvinism teaches. I quote him (and Calvin above) to show you that I am by no means a Calvinist. Here’s Hodge:

“Admitting, however, that the Augustinian doctrine that Christ died
specially for his own people does account for the general offer of
the gospel, how can it be reconciled with those passages which, in
one form or another, teach that He died for all men? In answer to
this question, it may be remarked in the first place that
Augustinians do not deny that Christ died for all men. What they
deny is that He died equally, and with the same design, for all men.
He died for all, that He might arrest the immediate execution of the
penalty of the law upon the whole of our apostate race; that He
might secure for men the innumerable blessings attending their state
on earth, which, in one important sense, is a state of probation;
and that He might lay the foundation for the offer of pardon and
reconciliation with God, on condition of faith and repentance”
(Systematic Theology, Volume 2, p. 558).

Note that Hodge says regarding Calvinists/Augustinians that they “do not deny that Christ died for all men. What they deny is that He died equally, and with the same design, for all men.” This is damnable. This is what Hodge calls Calvinism. I am not a Calvinst. I am a Christian, and Christians do NOT believe that Christ died for all–abeit in different senses.

127

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
I would like to distance myself a bit from extol’s points here. I hope that this doesn’t give those who wish to “prove” God wrong by showing that even Christians may disagree a bit. Just like with anything human, we are all on different levels of Biblical understanding and walk with God.

That being said, there are those who assert that Christ died for a group of people called the “elect” and nobody else. This belief is called “Calvinism” after John Calvin who first asserted these views.

Actually, John Calvin believed that Christ died for everyone without exception, including those who perish. In this, he was of one mind with his universal atonement brothers in satan. See the Calvin quotes below:

“He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive him.” [Commentary on Romans 5:18]

Calvin is here saying that although Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, yet all do not receive Him. If he had just said, “Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world,” we could have considered the possibility that he could have meant “the whole world of the Jews and Gentiles” or “the whole world of the elect” and not everyone without exception. But he goes on to say that “all do not receive him,” which means that he believed that Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, including all who do not receive him.

“True it is that the effect of His death comes not to the whole world. Nevertheless, forasmuch as it is not in us to discern between the righteous and the sinners that go to destruction, but that Jesus Christ has suffered His death and passion as well for them as for us, therefore it behoves us to labour to bring every man to salvation, that the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ may be available to them …” [Sermon CXVI on the Book of Job (31:29-32)]

Calvin is here saying that Jesus Christ has suffered His death and passion for the righteous as well as the sinners that go to destruction. (Note also that Calvin used the term “whole world” to mean everyone without exception.)

One more very popular, and very influential Calvinist was a Presbyterian theologian by the name of Charles Hodge. Here is his take on what Calvinism teaches. I quote him (and Calvin above) to show you that I am by no means a Calvinist. Here’s Hodge:

“Admitting, however, that the Augustinian doctrine that Christ died
specially for his own people does account for the general offer of
the gospel, how can it be reconciled with those passages which, in
one form or another, teach that He died for all men? In answer to
this question, it may be remarked in the first place that
Augustinians do not deny that Christ died for all men. What they
deny is that He died equally, and with the same design, for all men.
He died for all, that He might arrest the immediate execution of the
penalty of the law upon the whole of our apostate race; that He
might secure for men the innumerable blessings attending their state
on earth, which, in one important sense, is a state of probation;
and that He might lay the foundation for the offer of pardon and
reconciliation with God, on condition of faith and repentance”
(Systematic Theology, Volume 2, p. 558).

Note that Hodge says regarding Calvinists/Augustinians that they “do not deny that Christ died for all men. What they deny is that He died equally, and with the same design, for all men.” This is damnable. This is what Hodge calls Calvinism. I am not a Calvinst. I am a Christian, and Christians do NOT believe that Christ died for all–abeit in different senses.
[/quote]

Hey Extol,

Thanks for your thought-provoking theology lesson. However this is beyond the scope of my original intent with this thread. The thread asks about the origin of absolute truth.

I suggest you start your own thread where Christians can discuss the finer points of Christian theology.

Thanks again!

SteveO

128

Special preservation does not mean protection from tribulation, distress, famine, nakedness, or sword (see Romans 8:35-36). It means that whether they have food or no, God causes all things to work together for their good (Romans 8:28), and that nothing can separate them from the love of God that is in Christ (Romans 8:37-39). Those who believe that Christ died for those who finally perish deny this awesome truth, by blasphemously asserting that MANY things separate one from the love of God found in Christ Jesus.

The “especially” of 1 Timothy 4:10 is shown in that in the case of those for whom Christ did NOT die, everything (no matter how outwardly “blessed” they appear to be), works for bad (contra the believers of Romans 8:28). They are cursed and are being fattened up by God for the slaughter (Romans 9:22).

[quote]
mertdawg wrote:
Also, I have disproved determinism on page 1 of this thread. You have outlined a deterministic world where humans have no free will. Deal with my proof first, or admit that the universe is not-deterministic please.[/quote]

God is Sovereign and man is not free.

I will look at page 1 in as soon as I can in order to deal with your proof first.

I am not limiting God’s power. I am proclaiming it by saying that God shows His power in showing mercy to whom He wills, and also in hardening whom He wills (see Romans 9:18).

Take a look at Romans 9:17. This passage of Scripture shows that the purpose for which God created the Pharoah was to destroy him. God raised him up in order to demonstrate His power and wrath. By the way, for those who use the whole argument regarding the so-called problem of evil: There is no problem. Why does evil exist? Answer: God desires to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known:

“But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction, and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory” (Romans 9:22-23).

“For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:18).

The fact that the atonement of Christ DOES save every person for whom it was made shows that it is 100% powerful – 100% effectual. The atonement (or cross-work) of Jesus Christ is the power of God to those being saved.

Now what about those who believe that the blood of Christ was shed for every single person without exception, yet also say that there are some people who go to hell anyway? What does this say about the POWER of the cross (i.e., Christ’s saving work on the cross) of Christ? It says that the cross-work of Christ was NOT powerful enough to save. Instead, the cross-work of Christ needed something else – the works of man – to make it effectual. This is the damnable false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

129

[quote]extol7extol wrote:

mertdawg wrote:
If you are saying that Savior means simply that he provides for our biological needs, then how can you say he provide special preservation to those who believe, when the apostles all lost their lives.

Special preservation does not mean protection from tribulation, distress, famine, nakedness, or sword (see Romans 8:35-36). It means that whether they have food or no, God causes all things to work together for their good (Romans 8:28), and that nothing can separate them from the love of God that is in Christ (Romans 8:37-39). Those who believe that Christ died for those who finally perish deny this awesome truth, by blasphemously asserting that MANY things separate one from the love of God found in Christ Jesus.

The “especially” of 1 Timothy 4:10 is shown in that in the case of those for whom Christ did NOT die, everything (no matter how outwardly “blessed” they appear to be), works for bad (contra the believers of Romans 8:28). They are cursed and are being fattened up by God for the slaughter (Romans 9:22).

mertdawg wrote:
Also, I have disproved determinism on page 1 of this thread. You have outlined a deterministic world where humans have no free will. Deal with my proof first, or admit that the universe is not-deterministic please.

God is Sovereign and man is not free.

I will look at page 1 in as soon as I can in order to deal with your proof first.

mertdawg wrote:
I think you are limiting God’s power more than one who says he could save all of us.

I am not limiting God’s power. I am proclaiming it by saying that God shows His power in showing mercy to whom He wills, and also in hardening whom He wills (see Romans 9:18).

Take a look at Romans 9:17. This passage of Scripture shows that the purpose for which God created the Pharoah was to destroy him. God raised him up in order to demonstrate His power and wrath. By the way, for those who use the whole argument regarding the so-called problem of evil: There is no problem. Why does evil exist? Answer: God desires to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known:

“But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction, and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory” (Romans 9:22-23).

“For the Word of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:18).

The fact that the atonement of Christ DOES save every person for whom it was made shows that it is 100% powerful – 100% effectual. The atonement (or cross-work) of Jesus Christ is the power of God to those being saved.

Now what about those who believe that the blood of Christ was shed for every single person without exception, yet also say that there are some people who go to hell anyway? What does this say about the POWER of the cross (i.e., Christ’s saving work on the cross) of Christ? It says that the cross-work of Christ was NOT powerful enough to save. Instead, the cross-work of Christ needed something else – the works of man – to make it effectual. This is the damnable false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

[/quote]

Extol,

Please don’t hijack this thread! You should start a new one and you can then discuss your false ideas of God and salvation.

God says in His Word:

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

If God is NOT WILLING that any perish, but ALL come to repentance (and in the original language there is no qualification on the “ALL”) then how dare you say that “God is fattening them up for slaughter” as if He delights in it. Please don’t make my God (the God of the Bible) into some monster!

Now I am asking you very nicely to get off this thread and start your own. You are doing nothing to relate to the topic at hand…

130

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Truth is whatever you or I or anyone believes. I have no problem with christian beliefs. What I despise is that christians feel it necessary to try and impose those beliefs on others. This is a fact it can’t be disputed.
I find it hilarious that a christian is upset about not being able to state his beliefs. The christians have in fact a terrible track record as far as tolerance is concerned. [/quote]

You may believe what happened on 9/11 was good and I may believe it was bad. So who is right? According to you - we both are. Really?

You shouldn’t judge a religion by it’s followers but by it’s progenitor.

131

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
I will look at page 1 in as soon as I can in order to deal with your proof first.
[/quote]

It’s actually page 2 if you get the time.

132

I want to apologize to all for the apparent hijacking of this thread.

There are some, who claim to be Christians, that have some very distorted views of the Bible and salvation. I know that this will comfort those who are bent against God’s Word, but as I have said before, just because someone believes something, does not necessarily make it “T” ruth.

The Bible teaches the absolute truth that God loves all people. God’s best demonstration of the love for all was His sending His Son to die for all so that all could be saved. Whether or not they will, depends upon their choice of taking what God offers.

An example:

If I buy someone a gift, it is intended for that person. That person does not have to work for it, cannot do anythig for it, and certainly didn’t make it or buy it. However, for that gift to become a reality in thier lives, they do have to do one thing – take it. Unless the gift is taken, they don’t BENEFIT from the gift, even though the gift was bought for them.

Christ’s death is for all, but will not benefit a person unless he or she takes it. That’s why the Bible in that verse which was quoted by someone earlier said …“especially those who believe…” The “especially” is because while Christ died for all, the death does not have an effect unless the person takes it.

Clearly, God would be a monster if he “elected” only a few to be saved and then (by not electing others) damn them to hell and then send them there when they COULD NOT be saved even if they wanted to. That is NOT my God – the God of the Bible. That is not love!

Again, this thread was intended for a discussion of the origin, existence, and validity of Absolute Truth. Let’s stay on point and continue what was (before the hijack) a good discussion.

133

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Extol,

Please don’t hijack this thread! You should start a new one and you can then discuss your false ideas of God and salvation.

Now I am asking you very nicely to get off this thread and start your own. You are doing nothing to relate to the topic at hand…

[/quote]

What I am saying has EVERTHING to do with the topic at hand. The topic of this particular thread is “What Is Truth?” So, I’m telling you, and I told you the truth per John 14:6.

Whosever righteousness one believes makes the difference between salvation and damnation is the righteousness one is attempting to come to God in. If one believes that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, then they are ipso facto attempting to come to the Father in their own righteousness, contrary to John 14:6.

It’s either Christ’s work alone that makes the difference between heaven and hell (John 14:6), or it is the work of the self-righteous tower builders that makes the difference. You are a self-righteous tower Babylonian tower builder.

134

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Extol,

Please don’t hijack this thread! You should start a new one and you can then discuss your false ideas of God and salvation.

Now I am asking you very nicely to get off this thread and start your own. You are doing nothing to relate to the topic at hand…

What I am saying has EVERTHING to do with the topic at hand. The topic of this particular thread is “What Is Truth?” So, I’m telling you, and I told you the truth per John 14:6.

Whosever righteousness one believes makes the difference between salvation and damnation is the righteousness one is attempting to come to God in. If one believes that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, then they are ipso facto attempting to come to the Father in their own righteousness, contrary to John 14:6.

It’s either Christ’s work alone that makes the difference between heaven and hell (John 14:6), or it is the work of the self-righteous tower builders that makes the difference. You are a self-righteous tower Babylonian tower builder.
[/quote]

There is nothing I said contrary to John 14:6 EXCEPT for those who wish to espouse Calvinist(False)Doctrine and interpret the Bible through the press of their own system of theology.

Also, calling me names only shows that while you claim to be stating the truth of John 14.6, you are in clear violation of the truth of Matthew 7:1-5.

Why would that be? Oh, I’ll try to answer my own question. Perhaps you console yourself when violating Scripture when it is in defense of your chosen system of theology.

Again, I would urge you to end the hijack (as you did with that other thread last May) and start your own. Do you know how to start one?

135

[quote]extol7extol wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Extol,

Please don’t hijack this thread! You should start a new one and you can then discuss your false ideas of God and salvation.

Now I am asking you very nicely to get off this thread and start your own. You are doing nothing to relate to the topic at hand…

What I am saying has EVERTHING to do with the topic at hand. The topic of this particular thread is “What Is Truth?” So, I’m telling you, and I told you the truth per John 14:6.

Whosever righteousness one believes makes the difference between salvation and damnation is the righteousness one is attempting to come to God in. If one believes that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, then they are ipso facto attempting to come to the Father in their own righteousness, contrary to John 14:6.

It’s either Christ’s work alone that makes the difference between heaven and hell (John 14:6), or it is the work of the self-righteous tower builders that makes the difference. You are a self-righteous tower Babylonian tower builder.
[/quote]

Wrong again…

I am a born-again Christian, washed by the blood of the Lamb of God and have been cleaned through His Word. I have no rightesousness of my own except the righteousness which is in Christ.

136

Mertdawg:What is a ritual? Jesus practiced and instituted several things that I think you would call rituals-fasting, being baptised, washing feet, being buried, anointing, communion, laying on of hands, and he certainly followed the Jewish law when he could.

The problem is thinking of rituals as being mere symbols, rather than a part of what is real.
Rituals as repeated actions that become a persons source of salvation. The position I am taking is that fasting(known in that time as a cleansing processes), being baptised(This is not necessary for salvation but as a sign of being saved. Also, this is done once). washing feet(this was a not a ritual. Romans Muslims, Etc. washed guest feet a show of good will, since the feet were exposed to some pretty nasty things in that time. Ie. Camel and horse crap.

More of a hospitable act.)being buried, anointing, communion, laying on of hands(Listen these are not practiced by every Christains. By what you say eating fish and bread are rituals)Really if you take a closer look Christ rejected Jewish Law. The main reason the Pharisees and the Sadducees wanted him gone. Jewish law was made not to save but to expose sin. The people became more interested in ritual and tradition and forgot God.

137

Steveo,

I have to disagree. This side discussion is very apropos to the discussion of truth.

Disagreements about the meaning of various passages in the bible, by believers that are desirious of being devout Christians, are a direct argument against man being able to ascertain the absolute truth.

138

[quote]vroom wrote:
Again, I would urge you to end the hijack (as you did with that other thread last May) and start your own. Do you know how to start one?

Steveo,

I have to disagree. This side discussion is very apropo to the discussion of truth.

Disagreements about the meaning of various passages in the bible, by believers that are desirious of being devout Christians, are a direct argument against man being able to ascertain the absolute truth.[/quote]

Vroom,

I would agree with you if the INTENT of the side issue was to contribute to the thread. His intent, unfortunately, was to promote a particular system of theology with which I believe the Bible does not teach if you study it.

I also disagree with your argument that disagreements between believers about various passages of the Bible show that we cannot obtain absolute truth. If truth is written and given to us, we either can take it and accept it or we can read into it whatever we choose. That is why when it comes to the Bible, one must read it:

(1) Grammatically – using the common rules of grammar since the Word was written in words.

(2) Historically – we must understand the various historical periods which the Bible was written to ascertain the original intent of the passage.

(3) Contextually – no “picking out individual verses.” The context of the verse must be examined so that we are careful to allow the Bible to say only what it says.

The hard part is applying the truth to our lives.

I do appreciate your thoughful and honest comments Vroom. I think you would be open to Biblical truth if you would read the Bible with an open mind. Read the Gospel of John and ask God to show you the truth. One of two things may happen:

a) Nothing – but you would still be reading an excellent work of literature.

b) Your eyes will open spiritually – in which case you will be truly blessed.

Either way there is nothing to lose…

139

Steveo,

I’m not sure I understand how you can suggest that mankind can know absolute truth, but then claim that two different people exposed to it can walk away with differing views on what that truth is.

How can truth be absolute if nobody can agree on what the truth is?

The problem with people is that they can neither say nor hear anything without processing it through their own mind… and I daresay that none of us posess the mind of God.

So, even if we were given absolute truth, I would suggest that it is not in our ability to agree on it. Given that, nobody will ever be sure which interpretation is the right one, when interpretations differ among legitimate believers.

140

I have to ask…what do you mean by truth?

I am a…recovering Catholic I guess you could say. I believe in God one moment and then curse him off the next. I have serious problems with all organized religions everywere.

So when you say truth, do you mean God? Or the meaning of life?

Because when you say “Truth”, the only thing that can come about for me is “None”.

Green is only green for those that aren’t color blind. For them, green never existed, and never will. Whos more irrational- those that see it or those that don’t?

Atoms are always moving, electrons shifting and dissapearing. So really, no object “exists” at all. Nothing is in a stagnant state, everything is changing- how can anything exist then?

The human mind, human conciousness, is only made up of perceptions. For every different person, there is a different perception. Therefore, there are 6 billion truths…meaning that there is no truth, being as “truth” should only really be one thing…

I agree with Hspder. The only truth can be mathmatics. 2+2=4 That does not change whether there is a god or not, that doesn’t change if god dies, that doesn’t change if this planet randomly explodes. Math is the only truth. Other than that, all we have are perceptions.