What is the True Religion?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
381

[quote]pookie wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Why are atheists discussing the bible? That makes no sense A)since you most like did not read it,[/quote]

Of course we read it. That’s how we know it’s entirely man-made.
[/quote]
Mmmhmmm, I am not talking about little bits and pieces. I am talking about the whole thing. And no you didn’t. Maybe you read the first 2 chapters of Genesis, but not the whole thing.

I don’t. I think their idiots.

[quote]

I’ve been quite well thank you. Must be all those goods prayers you guys keep having for me.

As for where I came from, Trib is of the opinion that God sent me, so I’ll go with that.[/quote]
And predetermined you to hell before you were born… Don’t worry, according to him, I will be holding the door open for you and slapping your ass with pitch fork as you are walking through.

382

[quote]pookie wrote:
Why is that snake there?
[/quote]

Because that’s where the food was? Sounds reasonable to me.

383

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Blaspheme. God does not predestine someone to disobedience. [/quote]Nonsense Christopher. If He didn’t it could not happen. It would be blasphemy if I said He was responsible for the sin. Our God is not ultimately contingent on absolutely anything external to Himself. You’re gonna get that man. I just know you are.

[quote]pookie wrote:<<< In that story, God is either wicked or stupid (or both if you like).[/quote]Or God. You forgot to include the option that’s actually true.

[quote]pookie wrote:<<< So if God told you (in a way that made it clear to you that it was actually God telling you) that “being good” is now to kill as many people as possible - the weaker, the better - you’d run out and start mowing down kids, women, your friends and neighbors, etc?[/quote]That would not be an ipso facto impossibility because God has already conveyed through the revelation of His written Word that the new covenant redemptive church age does NOT include such things EVER.

[quote]pookie wrote:<<< And that’s relevant because…?[/quote]A God that can do that is not mystified by any alleged conundrums we can insolently challenge Him with

384

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pookie wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Or, you shall surely die. They knew what was up.[/quote]

Did they even know what death was?
[/quote]

Without the tree of knowledge?

They did not even know that they were butt naked, one would think anything above and beyond that was also beyond them as well?[/quote]

They knew they were naked.[/quote]

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

New International Version (�©1984)[/quote]

First, I didn’t know you were a fundamentalist.

Second, what seems to be your understanding of this verse is at based on eisegesis rather than exegesis.

“the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed” Gen 2:25

They knew they were naked, they were not mentally handicapped and just imagined that they were actually clothed. The difference before and after is this: Shame.

What’s happening is that because you nor I understand this original nakedness from experience we make assumptions that they should have been ashamed, but were just dumb and didn’t know that they were supposed to be ashamed. This is not the case, there was no reason for anyone to be ashamed to be naked. The reason: love.

There was no objectification of persons. The result of eating the fruit is that they died. The spirit of God left them, and they were dead in sin and could no longer love perfectly. For the first time persons objectified each other. Just as a woman would almost instinctively cover themselves if a strange man came in when she was not decent, because he does not love her. Adam and Eve felt this for the first time. They felt objectified, and shame – a form of self-defense against being treated as an object for sexual use.

385

[quote]pookie wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Yes they knew, it was expulsion from the Garden. They wouldn’t walk with God and would no longer be filled with the Holy Ghost.[/quote]

That’s not dying. Why did God lie to them? They ate the fruit and did not die.

They got kicked out, but Adam lived to be 900 if memory serves… that’s one fucking slow death.

As for the Holy Ghost, I’m not sure what’s the perk of being filled with it, doesn’t seem much of a loss…[/quote]

You’re taking a materialistic view of this. That is not what God meant. How was Adam brought to life? God breathed into his nostrils, what did he breathe? The Holy Ghost. When you are disobedient to God, you remove yourself from his presence or better you remove him from your heart. The Holy Ghost is the actual person you’re removing from your person or heart. The Holy Ghost is the supernatural life force for mankind. If you remove someone’s life force what happens? They die.

And, the loss of the Holy Ghost is the loss of Heaven.

386

[quote]pookie wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No. God created you to know and love him. You can only love him if you freely choose to love him. If there is no option to reject him, then you’re just a robot programed to bring him drinks and a sammich. [/quote]

You’re missing the part where if I don’t love him, he’ll burn me for eternity.

Great choice that.
[/quote]

Sounds like you’re angry about something.

The choice is not exactly, but kinda, like your dad is offering you keys to the truck and you complaining that if you don’t choose the truck keys that he’s making you walk. That is obviously not the case, it’s you making the choice of walking. Your dad gave you the choice of the two, he would rather you take the truck because he knows it will make you superiorly happy compared to walking. Now sometimes he makes it so that certain people cannot not accept the keys to the truck, but all are welcome to take the keys, he leaves these people to make the choice.

On the burning for eternity. The reason for that is not because God is torturing you. That is not theological at all. What is theological is that at final judgement our choice is finalized and we now either completely hate God or complete love Him. If you are worried about being burned, stay out of Heaven. Theologically, the burning will be more intense in Heaven (infinitely more so). However, the burning you experience in Hell is from your complete hatred of God, not fire.

387

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Blaspheme. God does not predestine someone to disobedience. [/quote]Nonsense Christopher. If He didn’t it could not happen. It would be blasphemy if I said He was responsible for the sin. Our God is not ultimately contingent on absolutely anything external to Himself. You’re gonna get that man. I just know you are.[quote]pookie wrote:<<< In that story, God is either wicked or stupid (or both if you like).[/quote]Or God. You forgot to include the option that’s true.[quote]pookie wrote:<<< So if God told you (in a way that made it clear to you that it was actually God telling you) that “being good” is now to kill as many people as possible - the weaker, the better - you’d run out and start mowing down kids, women, your friends and neighbors, etc?[/quote]That would not be an ipso facto impossibility because God has already conveyed through the revelation of His written Word that the new covenant redemptive church age does NOT include such things EVER.[quote]pookie wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
God had recently completed His project of commanding light and matter to exist from nothing and ordering them in such a way so that He declared them “very good”.[/quote]
And that’s relevant because…?[/quote][/quote]A God that can do that is not mystified by any alleged conundrums we can insolently challenge Him with
[/quote]

Can’t read.

388

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving. [/quote]Lemme make this a little worse for ya. God did NOT test them knowing they would fail. He decreed their failure. And He did it by divine mechanisms known only to Himself whereby He remained and remains utterly free from so much as even the whiff or smudge of sin. All this is addressed in His Word. HE defines what’s loving. Not his corrupt rebellious creatures, myself included.
[/quote]

You are making this no worse for me! According to you, he made us EXACTLY the way we are. To the last molecule. Why would he create such a corrupt, wretched species, only to save those who he was going to save anyway!? Why create only to punish? This is beyond stupid and insulting to the very idea of a god, should there be one.

389

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving. [/quote]Lemme make this a little worse for ya. God did NOT test them knowing they would fail. He decreed their failure. And He did it by divine mechanisms known only to Himself whereby He remained and remains utterly free from so much as even the whiff or smudge of sin. All this is addressed in His Word. HE defines what’s loving. Not his corrupt rebellious creatures, myself included.
[/quote]You are making this no worse for me! According to you, he made us EXACTLY the way we are. To the last molecule. Why would he create such a corrupt, wretched species, only to save those who he was going to save anyway!? Why create only to punish? This is beyond stupid and insulting to the very idea of a god, should there be one. [/quote]See the view of God that I espouse is THEE one that unbelievers will least accept. That is a testimony to it’s truth. He did not “make” anybody wretched or corrupt. He rendered it certain that they would be. Why would He do such thing? Because He wanted to display both His compassion, mercy and love AND His holiness which necessitates His unspeakable, horrific judgement and damnation of evil.
There had to be sin so there could be the cross of Christ. The whole of creation, seen and unseen, men and angels, good and evil. The entirety of universal history is all about Jesus Christ. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Before there was man or sin. The Christ was already, incarnated, crucified, buried, resurrected and glorified in the mind of the Father. All things, as in everyTHING and everyBODY, are from Him, to Him, through Him, by Him and for Him.
He is the reason the sun rises and sets. The reason the cosmos maintains it’s order. The reason 2+2=4. The reason your heart beats and mine. The reason the Red wings lost in the first round this year. He counts every raindrop that is falling on Detroit right now. It’s all His.
The Jesus I know is not a femmy limp wristed hippie. Begging people to believe in Him. He and He alone is the triumphant conquering King of all that is, including most especially the pitiful hearts of sinful men. He is seated at the right hand of majesty on high. The flawlessly just and righteous judge of the quick and the dead.

I expect that you’ll yawn your way through this post. That will be just as it should be too.

390

How about His Holiness and Wisdom go far beyond your imagination / comprehension

391

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
You are making this no worse for me! According to you, he made us EXACTLY the way we are. To the last molecule. Why would he create such a corrupt, wretched species, only to save those who he was going to save anyway!?
[/quote]

So that all could know and love God eternally. Though man isn’t a wretch, that is M. Luther’s words. Man is good, though is inclined towards evil since the Fall. He saves the ones who allow him to save them, through his Grace.

392

Romans 3:9-18

[quote]9 What then? are we better? No, in no wise: for we have before charged both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin:
10 according as it is written, There is not a righteous man, not even one;
11 there is not the man that understands, there is not one that seeks after God.
12 All have gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable; there is not one that practises goodness, there is not so much as one:
13 their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; asps’ poison is under their lips:
14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;
15 swift their feet to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery are in their ways,
17 and way of peace they have not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes.[/quote]

393

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[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving.

[/quote]

394

[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
No Pookie, it doesn’t matter what good or evil is. That is not even included in this particular command.

So disobeying is not evil then. How would you value obeying vs. disobeying without a notion of good and evil?[/quote]

Never said disobeying wasn’t evil, however one can disobey without evil intent. But that still has nothing to do with them not following God’s command. They don’t have to know that what they’re doing is evil in order for it to be wrong. You’re not thinking past your eagerness to bash religion.

[quote] If God told them not to do it they shouldn’t have done it.

IIRC, they weren’t doing it until the snake got involved. Why is that snake there? He’s got a leg up on them (ha ha) because his intellectual capacity is not lacking some important knowledge; there’s no way A&E were going to come out on top here…[/quote]

Wrong again, all they had to do was obey God’s command and they would have comee out on top. Simple.

[quote]You are implying that unless there is punishment attached to it, or foreknowledge of good and evil that they don’t have to obey what God told them.

No, I’m saying that they cannot properly evaluate the consequences of disobeying because they don’t know what evil is, they don’t know what death is - neither has ever died or known of someone who had.[/quote]

Once again they do not need even the ability to evaluate. They don’t have to know anything about consequences in order to obey the command. You are making a case that they were too naive to obey. And one does not have to be worldly to understand a simple command by the creator - They have no excuse!

Nonsense, you are trying to confuse the issue. They knew that God was the creator as he spoke directly to them many, many times. He was their father and their creator. This is easy stuff not difficult to understand, just difficult for you to accept.

395

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving.

[/quote]
[/quote]

There you go sufiandy that’s the type of religious bigotry that you’re getting to be known for here at T Nation.

Way to have an open mind.

396

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving. [/quote]Lemme make this a little worse for ya. God did NOT test them knowing they would fail. He decreed their failure. And He did it by divine mechanisms known only to Himself whereby He remained and remains utterly free from so much as even the whiff or smudge of sin. All this is addressed in His Word. HE defines what’s loving. Not his corrupt rebellious creatures, myself included.
[/quote]You are making this no worse for me! According to you, he made us EXACTLY the way we are. To the last molecule. Why would he create such a corrupt, wretched species, only to save those who he was going to save anyway!? Why create only to punish? This is beyond stupid and insulting to the very idea of a god, should there be one. [/quote]See the view of God that I espouse is THEE one that unbelievers will least accept. That is a testimony to it’s truth. He did not “make” anybody wretched or corrupt. He rendered it certain that they would be. Why would He do such thing? Because He wanted to display both His compassion, mercy and love AND His holiness which necessitates His unspeakable, horrific judgement and damnation of evil.
There had to be sin so there could be the cross of Christ. The whole of creation, seen and unseen, men and angels, good and evil. The entirety of universal history is all about Jesus Christ. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Before there was man or sin. The Christ was already, incarnated, crucified, buried, resurrected and glorified in the mind of the Father. All things, as in everyTHING and everyBODY, are from Him, to Him, through Him, by Him and for Him.
He is the reason the sun rises and sets. The reason the cosmos maintains it’s order. The reason 2+2=4. The reason your heart beats and mine. The reason the Red wings lost in the first round this year. He counts every raindrop that is falling on Detroit right now. It’s all His.
The Jesus I know is not a femmy limp wristed hippie. Begging people to believe in Him. He and He alone is the triumphant conquering King of all that is, including most especially the pitiful hearts of sinful men. He is seated at the right hand of majesty on high. The flawlessly just and righteous judge of the quick and the dead.

I expect that you’ll yawn your way through this post. That will be just as it should be too.
[/quote]

No yawning here. I’m riveted, although perhaps for all the wrong reasons. I have never in my life encountered the religious beliefs that you possess. This is not a cheap shot or whatever. I just haven’t. God must hate the UK!

Why does there need to be a sacrifice then? You may have already said this, but I couldn’t pick it up… Why make everything about Jesus? Why does there need to be a cross of Christ?

397

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving. [/quote]Lemme make this a little worse for ya. God did NOT test them knowing they would fail. He decreed their failure. And He did it by divine mechanisms known only to Himself whereby He remained and remains utterly free from so much as even the whiff or smudge of sin. All this is addressed in His Word. HE defines what’s loving. Not his corrupt rebellious creatures, myself included.
[/quote]You are making this no worse for me! According to you, he made us EXACTLY the way we are. To the last molecule. Why would he create such a corrupt, wretched species, only to save those who he was going to save anyway!? Why create only to punish? This is beyond stupid and insulting to the very idea of a god, should there be one. [/quote]See the view of God that I espouse is THEE one that unbelievers will least accept. That is a testimony to it’s truth. He did not “make” anybody wretched or corrupt. He rendered it certain that they would be. Why would He do such thing? Because He wanted to display both His compassion, mercy and love AND His holiness which necessitates His unspeakable, horrific judgement and damnation of evil.
There had to be sin so there could be the cross of Christ. The whole of creation, seen and unseen, men and angels, good and evil. The entirety of universal history is all about Jesus Christ. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Before there was man or sin. The Christ was already, incarnated, crucified, buried, resurrected and glorified in the mind of the Father. All things, as in everyTHING and everyBODY, are from Him, to Him, through Him, by Him and for Him.
He is the reason the sun rises and sets. The reason the cosmos maintains it’s order. The reason 2+2=4. The reason your heart beats and mine. The reason the Red wings lost in the first round this year. He counts every raindrop that is falling on Detroit right now. It’s all His.
The Jesus I know is not a femmy limp wristed hippie. Begging people to believe in Him. He and He alone is the triumphant conquering King of all that is, including most especially the pitiful hearts of sinful men. He is seated at the right hand of majesty on high. The flawlessly just and righteous judge of the quick and the dead.

I expect that you’ll yawn your way through this post. That will be just as it should be too.
[/quote]

No yawning here. I’m riveted, although perhaps for all the wrong reasons. I have never in my life encountered the religious beliefs that you possess. This is not a cheap shot or whatever. I just haven’t. God must hate the UK!

Why does there need to be a sacrifice then? You may have already said this, but I couldn’t pick it up… Why make everything about Jesus? Why does there need to be a cross of Christ?

[/quote]

Yeah Trib why do we have to make such a big deal about the God of the Universe sending his one and only son to earth to suffer and die for our sins?

Oh wait…

398

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving.

[/quote]
[/quote]

There you go sufiandy that’s the type of religious bigotry that you’re getting to be known for here at T Nation.

Way to have an open mind.

[/quote]

How does that picture imply intolerance to religion?

399

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving.

[/quote]
[/quote]

There you go sufiandy that’s the type of religious bigotry that you’re getting to be known for here at T Nation.

Way to have an open mind.

[/quote]

Please define ‘open mind’ in your view, just so I’m clear what you mean there? Genuinely curious,no insult intended. Because my first reaction was that you had to be joking. But maybe I’ve just read too many of Tirib’s and Mr.Chen’s posts and I’m painting all deeply religious protestants on here with the same brush (in my head).

400

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.

A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving.

[/quote]
[/quote]

Now that’s truly funny…