[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap.
[/quote]
No. God created you to know and love him. You can only love him if you freely choose to love him. If there is no option to reject him, then you’re just a robot programed to bring him drinks and a sammich.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pookie wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Or, you shall surely die. They knew what was up.[/quote]
Did they even know what death was?
[/quote]
Without the tree of knowledge?
They did not even know that they were butt naked, one would think anything above and beyond that was also beyond them as well?[/quote]
They knew they were naked.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.
A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving. [/quote]Lemme make this a little worse for ya. God did NOT test them knowing they would fail. He decreed their failure. And He did it by divine mechanisms known only to Himself whereby He remained and remains utterly free from so much as even the whiff or smudge of sin. All this is addressed in His Word. HE defines what’s loving. Not his corrupt rebellious creatures, myself included.
[/quote]
Well, that is a neat trick.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.
A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving. [/quote]Lemme make this a little worse for ya. God did NOT test them knowing they would fail. He decreed their failure. And He did it by divine mechanisms known only to Himself whereby He remained and remains utterly free from so much as even the whiff or smudge of sin. All this is addressed in His Word. HE defines what’s loving. Not his corrupt rebellious creatures, myself included.
[/quote]
Blaspheme. God does not predestine someone to disobedience.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pookie wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Or, you shall surely die. They knew what was up.[/quote]
Did they even know what death was?
[/quote]
Without the tree of knowledge?
They did not even know that they were butt naked, one would think anything above and beyond that was also beyond them as well?[/quote]
They knew they were naked.[/quote]
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
New International Version (©1984)
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.
A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving. [/quote]Lemme make this a little worse for ya. God did NOT test them knowing they would fail. He decreed their failure. And He did it by divine mechanisms known only to Himself whereby He remained and remains utterly free from so much as even the whiff or smudge of sin. All this is addressed in His Word. HE defines what’s loving. Not his corrupt rebellious creatures, myself included.
[/quote]
Blaspheme. God does not predestine someone to disobedience. [/quote]
He apparently let two complete oaths loose in a minefield.
That is not predestination, but if I did that I would know what would happen.
And I have no psychic powers whatsoever.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pegasus3 wrote:
Right so it was trap. An all powerful god would surely have known they would fail at the test. Why put the talking snake there? To really, really test them? This stuff cannot be believed.
A god that sets tests, knowing you will most likely fail, cannot be loving. [/quote]Lemme make this a little worse for ya. God did NOT test them knowing they would fail. He decreed their failure. And He did it by divine mechanisms known only to Himself whereby He remained and remains utterly free from so much as even the whiff or smudge of sin. All this is addressed in His Word. HE defines what’s loving. Not his corrupt rebellious creatures, myself included.
[/quote]
Blaspheme. God does not predestine someone to disobedience. [/quote]
Correct.
[quote]pookie wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Still doing your father’s work I see. Anyway, you don’t have to have knowledge of good and evil to obey what God has told you. No one said that it was “bad” or “good” just don’t eat the fruit.[/quote]
Why obey? Why not eat the fruit? How would they decide whether to obey or not if they can’t tell right from wrong?
Is your contention that obeying God is not good? Or that disobeying is not evil?
It might seem simple to you, but that’s because you know good from evil.
[/quote]
Why are atheists discussing the bible? That makes no sense A)since you most like did not read it, B) You don’t believe in God so it hold zero meaning for you…
How you been pook? Where did you come from…I thought you were long gone.
[quote]pookie wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Still doing your father’s work I see. Anyway, you don’t have to have knowledge of good and evil to obey what God has told you. No one said that it was “bad” or “good” just don’t eat the fruit.[/quote]
Why obey? Why not eat the fruit? How would they decide whether to obey or not if they can’t tell right from wrong?
Is your contention that obeying God is not good? Or that disobeying is not evil?
It might seem simple to you, but that’s because you know good from evil.
[/quote]
Do we? I thought it was relative…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
God had recently completed His project of commanding light and matter to exist from nothing and ordering them in such a way so that He declared them “very good”.[/quote]
And that’s relevant because…?
They knew what he wanted, but they didn’t know that not doing what he wanted was an evil act. How could they?
What’s worse, is that left alone, they did ok. It’s when the snake gets involved that it all goes to Hell. Not only is God not giving them all the mental tools they require to be able to make good choices, he sends in the snake (who does have complete mental capacity) to get them to disobey.
When you tell a toddler not to do something, you can get him to obey pretty well. But ask any adult to get them to disobey, and the toddler has no chance.
Adam and Eve are like children… innocent and pure; they lack sufficient knowledge to be able to make good decisions. As if that wasn’t bad enough, they meet the snake who has all the wits and the time required to get them to fail.
In that story, God is either wicked or stupid (or both if you like).
So if God told you (in a way that made it clear to you that it was actually God telling you) that “being good” is now to kill as many people as possible - the weaker, the better - you’d run out and start mowing down kids, women, your friends and neighbors, etc?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Yes they knew, it was expulsion from the Garden. They wouldn’t walk with God and would no longer be filled with the Holy Ghost.[/quote]
That’s not dying. Why did God lie to them? They ate the fruit and did not die.
They got kicked out, but Adam lived to be 900 if memory serves… that’s one fucking slow death.
As for the Holy Ghost, I’m not sure what’s the perk of being filled with it, doesn’t seem much of a loss…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No. God created you to know and love him. You can only love him if you freely choose to love him. If there is no option to reject him, then you’re just a robot programed to bring him drinks and a sammich. [/quote]
You’re missing the part where if I don’t love him, he’ll burn me for eternity.
Great choice that.
[quote]orion wrote:
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
New International Version (�©1984)[/quote]
That’s the PG version. Come on, the only man with the only woman? What do you think they really did?
I’m pretty sure Eve encountered another snake shortly thereafter.
[quote]pat wrote:
Why are atheists discussing the bible? That makes no sense A)since you most like did not read it,[/quote]
Of course we read it. That’s how we know it’s entirely man-made.
I find adults what believe in fairy tales to be endlessly fascinating. So I’m fascinated. Without end.
I’ve been quite well thank you. Must be all those goods prayers you guys keep having for me.
As for where I came from, Trib is of the opinion that God sent me, so I’ll go with that.
[quote]pat wrote:
Do we? I thought it was relative…[/quote]
The real one we use in the real grown-up world is relative; but we’re discussing the make-believe one from your fairy book. In that case, we have to pretend like God exists and then show you all the nonsensical and contradictory conclusions you get to if you think a little.
Stuff like Adam and Eve being told to “be good, now” before they know what good and evil even are.
[quote]orion wrote:
He apparently let two complete oaths loose in a minefield.
That is not predestination, but if I did that I would know what would happen.
And I have no psychic powers whatsoever. [/quote]
Here’s another analogy: I put you in a completely dark room and tell you: “You can walk all you want, but don’t go North.”
[quote]pookie wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Still doing your father’s work I see. Anyway, you don’t have to have knowledge of good and evil to obey what God has told you. No one said that it was “bad” or “good” just don’t eat the fruit.[/quote]
Why obey? Why not eat the fruit? How would they decide whether to obey or not if they can’t tell right from wrong?
Is your contention that obeying God is not good? Or that disobeying is not evil?
It might seem simple to you, but that’s because you know good from evil.
[/quote]
No Pookie, it doesn’t matter what good or evil is. That is not even included in this particular command. If God told them not to do it they shouldn’t have done it. You are implying that unless there is punishment attached to it, or foreknowledge of good and evil that they don’t have to obey what God told them.
Think about it, it will hit you all at once.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
No Pookie, it doesn’t matter what good or evil is. That is not even included in this particular command.[/quote]
So disobeying is not evil then. How would you value obeying vs. disobeying without a notion of good and evil?
IIRC, they weren’t doing it until the snake got involved. Why is that snake there? He’s got a leg up on them (ha ha) because his intellectual capacity is not lacking some important knowledge; there’s no way A&E were going to come out on top here…
No, I’m saying that they cannot properly evaluate the consequences of disobeying because they don’t know what evil is, they don’t know what death is - neither has ever died or known of someone who had. Then the snake starts tempting them… Maybe they thought that disobeying the snake was also not to be done. “That snake wants us to eat that fruit… is that a good or evil thing - Damn! We can’t tell!!” (They couldn’t even tell that a talking snake was fucking suspicious, so you know they weren’t dealing from a full deck.)
[quote]pookie wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Do we? I thought it was relative…[/quote]
The real one we use in the real grown-up world is relative; but we’re discussing the make-believe one from your fairy book. In that case, we have to pretend like God exists and then show you all the nonsensical and contradictory conclusions you get to if you think a little.
Stuff like Adam and Eve being told to “be good, now” before they know what good and evil even are.[/quote]
The real one is relative? That means you can justify anything. So make a justification for rape…
I can’t believe people still hold on the the epic fail of relative morality… If you have to shove square pegs into round holes to justify your belief system, the problem isn’t the peg board it’s the peg your using. In other words you are using patently false notions in order to preserve an errant belief system.
Moral relativism breaks down at the extremes. That’s how we know it’s false.
There is no point in discussing things you don’t believe exist.