[quote]KBCThird wrote:
TNV wrote:
Imo, Oly Lifting has the strongest athletes. Or in the very least, it potentially has the strongest athletes of all the Iron sports.
Oly lifters are chosen and weaned through the process of elimination to the point that only the very best rise to the top. The cream of the crop. Not only are Oly lifters chosen early as a kid, they have to meet certain criteria, one such being the vertical jump. In short, not just any Joe-schmoe can be an Oly lifter. You have to be an absolute genetic freak. Take Naim Suleymanuglu for example: if I remember correctly, he went through a process in which they had doctors and sport experts basically tell him which sport he would most likely excel at, and that sport was weightlifting.
On the other hand, you don’t really have that kind of process with powerlifting and strongman. Rarely do you ever hear of cases where kids grow up specifically bred to be PL or strongman. And the biggest reason of all is that neither sport is very popular, or has yet to gain the same type of popularity as weightlifting in most countries. And we can all agree that popularity generates interest. Interest generates money. And money is the mother of all attraction to any kind of athletes. Therefore, the best athlete will flock to the sports with the most money, or at the very least, more popularity.
Do you not agree that the best athletes in America are in Football? If so, then the same is true for most Eastern European countries, China, Russia, etc. where Weightlifting is almost considered a national sport, capable of attracting the best athletes. It’s only very recently has PL and Strongman caught on in most of those countries. OL, on the other hand, has got over a 100 year history in most of those countries.
Besides those reasonings, there’s the results themselves. Guys like Mark Henry and Shane Hamman who are OL who hold records in squats that still stands today, if I’m not mistaken. Henry also tried the Arnold Strongman for fun and won that year. Then there’s Mikhail Koklyaev, a very good weightlifter who does strongman as a hobby, consistently coming in top 5 or top 3 with behemoths like Savikas and co.
And that’s just 2-3 good weightlifters. Imagine had guys like Alexyev, Kurlovich, Pisarenko, Taranenko, Reza, Weller, Chemerkin – all elite level WL – had taken the route of PL instead of OL? Or how about Yuri Zakharevich? This guy would far and away demolish any sort of records in the 100-110kg category in PL. Zakharevich weight 110kg with a 210kg snatch and 250 c&j – those numbers are out of this world. I’m confident within 1 or 2 years, these guys would probably break every single PL record, just because they’re such genetic freaks to begin with who just happened to have chosen OL instead.
I mean, the results of Koklyaev, Hamman and Henry speak for themselves.
Well, if you wanted a non politically correct answer, there it is. All my opinion, of course.
First, it shouldnt be at all a surprise that Suleymanuglu was steered towards weightlifting. How tall was he, 5’ even? He NEEDED a sport with divided weight classes, so that severely restricts it in the first place. That’s not to say htat he wasnt one of the best OLers of all time, but I dont think he wouldve ever been a real threat on the soccer pitch, let alone the basketball court.
Second, as far as choosing guys with the best genetics, they werent chosen because they had “the best genetics” they had “the best genetics FOR OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTING.” It goes without saying that there are some incredibly strong dudes in OL. But being able to display your strength quickly does not necessarily equate to being able to display even greater strength over an extended period of time. Ever train with someone who can make their 1RM or near 1RM look easy, then have 10 lbs added to the bar and get crushed? I have. These are “make it or miss it” lifters who have completely different abilities than the guys who can strain through a lift. Maybe some OLers would make great PLers, maybe some wouldnt.
As far as hamman and Henry still having records, your point goes both ways. You say, “look, these OLers have records that stand in PL” but it could just as easily be said “look, these record-setting PLers made the OL team.” This is all probably irrelevant seeing as having a record in PL requires a few qualifications. I dont mean to disparage the usapl but it is inarguable that tehy do not have ALL of the strongest guys. Simply by virtue of the fact that powerlifting is split it makes it difficult if not impossible for any one fed to claim to have all the strongest guys. Besides that I do believe that teh strongest guys in PL are in teh double ply feds, but that’s besides the point. Simply that Hammans and Henry’s records have only been assailed by those who chose to lift in their particular fed, not any PLer who has ever gotten under the bar.
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First of all, I was using Naim as one of the many examples. Rezza was another who was steered towards weightlifting by his teacher, and he was 6’1. And second, I made sure to state that OL are the best athletes IRON GAME. Naim would obviously not make for a very good basketball player. Yes, we know.
It still doesn’t change the fact that in such countries, such process exists and is critical in developing world champs. I have an Ironmind DVD right here for a bunch of 10-14 year old Chinese kids who live and breath weightlifting everyday. PL and Strongman, due to lack of popularity and money, do not have this luxury.
As for your other points, they’re all just semantics. The genetics needed for OL are the same as strongman and PL. Trying to split hair over this matter is pointless. The best genetic for WL is also the best genetic for strongman and PL. Believing otherwise is just denying facts.
As for your third point, it’s true that it can go either way; but what does it say about PL when guys like Henry and Hamman who couldn’t cut it as elite WL, but yet are world record holders in PL? Perhaps it takes less physical talent to exceed at one sport over another? Again, you’re splitting hair with the whole federation thing. A squat is a squat, and Henry still holds the record for raw squat. Hamman still holds the record (correct me if I’m wrong) for single ply squat of over 1000. So, even if you consider Henry and Hamman PL making transition to WL, they failed to succeed on the internation level.
And then there’s Koklyaev. He’s about the only serious weightlifter who’s done strongman, and once again, results speak for themselves. He’s consistently top 5 or top 3 in almost every strongman competition he’s in, and his competition are arguably the strongest in strongman history. And, unlike Hammon and Henry, Koklaev’s transition from WL to strongman can clearly be viewed as a success.
So a WL could hang with the very best of strongman and powerlifting; The same can’t be said for the PL. It’s just a matter of perspective to me, I have no bias in this subject.
Once again, just look at it subjectively. If Koklyaev can achieve such success in strongman, is it such a stretch to say that men like Rezza, Chemerkin, Redding, Taranenko – men who have accomplished far more than Koklyaev and with higher numbers – would not do the same?
But then again, this whole argument just comes down to whichever sport you favor, anyway. I see no point in arguing this any longer.
