What is Strength, Who's the Strongest?

[quote]blazindave wrote:

By the end of the process, Lieberman said, even humans with their crude early weapons could have overcome stronger and more dangerous prey. Adding credence to the theory, Lieberman said, is the fact that some aboriginal humans still practice persistence hunting today, and it remains an effective technique. It requires very minimal technology, has a high success rate, and yields a lot of meat

[/quote]

I laugh at you…because I think it is funny when people quote or refer to Anthropologists or their like as if they were real scientists. Anthropologists look at bones and sometimes DNA and then GUESS with no way of ever testing their GUESS. SO they are not scientists and can’t be given credibility.

In any case you couldn’t run a marathon either without support (water and food stations) in any good time…anything you would be hunting would have moved on, dispersed and hidden by the time you get to it – and when you did, it would have rested would still kick your ass UNLESS of course you had a weapon…so that isn’t a real world comparison.

And if you look at the Abos, they used weapons…not their running ability to get their prey.

[quote]2274 wrote:
You can’t compare the strongest squatter with the strongest deadlifter. There is no strongest man in the world.[/quote]

It’s the same guy. Andy Bolton. He’s your avatar. I’m pretty sure the heavier squat made by someone else is highly contested and not official. Andy Bolton clearly has the Strongest Legs in the world.

Some people might want to describe strength as a mental quality. Someone who is in total control of their animal appetites and their human emotions. Someone who behaves as a perfect moral agent no matter the circumstances.

But I say whomever has the greatest Deadlift is the Strongest Man in the World. With the Use of Squat suits and Bench Shirts, technique has become incredibly important in Power-lifting. But Deadlift suits don’t provide as significant an aid in lifting the weight and they don’t really require the lifter to develop new techniques and precise grooves in order to get more out of the suits. So whether you’re for or against power-lifting gear, you must admit that the Deadlift is the greatest indicator of pure strength in Powerlifting, even if it is by a slim margin.

Olympic Weightlifting will not produce the worlds strongest man. Either it or Track and Field will produce the world’s most powerful man: The person who can display the strength they possess the fastest. It may be more practical to be the worlds most powerful man than the worlds strongest man.

Strongman Competitions, Combat Sports, and other Strength Sports I haven’t mentioned require so much more than just raw strength that they cannot produce the world’s strongest man since the athletes that participate in these sports must excel in a broader range of athletic qualities besides pure strength.

I can see a case being made for whomever can Press the most weight is the strongest man in the world. By Press I mean the Standing Olympic Press Cleaned from the floor. The Clean & Jerk relies too much on Flexibility, Power, and Technique to be considered a test of pure strength. But if you can Press a weight overhead, it’s not going to be that hard to clean.

[quote]blazindave wrote:

A cheetah can reach speeds of 60 miles an hour. However after half a mile of running that fast, they need several minutes to recover and are extremely weak. They can barely move. I could easily outrun the cheetah (Takes nothing for a human to cover half a mile,)kill it and eat it. THAT’s the real world.
[/quote]

Is the cheetah chasing you or are you chasing the cheetah?

I hope you have a gun.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Tom63,

You’re arguing your points really well and I would definately agree on all counts. I’ve heard the same thing being said about ultra-marathon runners. Normal Marathoners treat them with distain since by running the extra distance they think they’re fitter, but really they wouldn’t be competitive over 26 miles anyway.[/quote]

All so true. Any extreme sport, such as powerlifting, ultra marathon racing etc. is not that practical for the real world. You and I are strong enough to be NFL running backs. We might not be athletic enough, but the strength is there.

Are levels of strength fitness is you will is very high. Our competitive strength abilities are okay to good. you might even get to be very, very good due to your age. If I’m not mistaken , you’re early 20s, while I’m mid 40s at app. the same weight.

At a certain point you’re enjoying your sport and not getting fitter. enjoying a sporting activity is fine, just don’t kid that you’re so much better off physically.

And as you said, doing some slow ass sport sort of okay is a huge waste of time. A 2:15-4 hour marathon is impressive. A slow 50 mile race is retarded. Even in medieval times they were smart enough to use a horse.

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
2274 wrote:
You can’t compare the strongest squatter with the strongest deadlifter. There is no strongest man in the world.

It’s the same guy. Andy Bolton. He’s your avatar. I’m pretty sure the heavier squat made by someone else is highly contested and not official. Andy Bolton clearly has the Strongest Legs in the world.

Some people might want to describe strength as a mental quality. Someone who is in total control of their animal appetites and their human emotions. Someone who behaves as a perfect moral agent no matter the circumstances.

But I say whomever has the greatest Deadlift is the Strongest Man in the World. With the Use of Squat suits and Bench Shirts, technique has become incredibly important in Power-lifting. But Deadlift suits don’t provide as significant an aid in lifting the weight and they don’t really require the lifter to develop new techniques and precise grooves in order to get more out of the suits. So whether you’re for or against power-lifting gear, you must admit that the Deadlift is the greatest indicator of pure strength in Powerlifting, even if it is by a slim margin.

Olympic Weightlifting will not produce the worlds strongest man. Either it or Track and Field will produce the world’s most powerful man: The person who can display the strength they possess the fastest. It may be more practical to be the worlds most powerful man than the worlds strongest man.

Strongman Competitions, Combat Sports, and other Strength Sports I haven’t mentioned require so much more than just raw strength that they cannot produce the world’s strongest man since the athletes that participate in these sports must excel in a broader range of athletic qualities besides pure strength.

I can see a case being made for whomever can Press the most weight is the strongest man in the world. By Press I mean the Standing Olympic Press Cleaned from the floor. The Clean & Jerk relies too much on Flexibility, Power, and Technique to be considered a test of pure strength. But if you can Press a weight overhead, it’s not going to be that hard to clean. [/quote]

The deadlift is surely affect the least by gear. I don’t know how much my deadlift suit gives me, maybe ten, twenty pounds. A bench shirt will give you 150+ at a 300 pound bencher, while squat gear can get you 200+ or more for a 500 pound raw guy.

Learning the gear is not easy and not to be sneezed at, of course.

If you wanted my WSM, it would be Savickas(sp) or Bolton. Savickas just dominates the Arnold Strongman. One year he did the apollo axle press for 7-8 reps. Cleaning and jerk pressing the solid axle is impressive one time, let alone 7-8 times.

I don’t know what he could deadlift, but it would have to be over 800 for sure. I wouldn’t doubt in the 900s with regular deadlfit training.

But there you go, at the highest levels specialization rears it ugly head again.

[quote]AZMojo wrote:
blazindave wrote:
mmllcc wrote:
blazindave wrote:

This is getting way off track since this thread was a question of strength, but do not deny that humans, in terms of running, are endurance machines.
I could say with absolute confidence that if you put me and a cheetah on a field that spanned several thousand kilometers, that i would be the winner.

A cheetah can reach speeds of 60 miles an hour. However after half a mile of running that fast, they need several minutes to recover and are extremely weak. They can barely move. I could easily outrun the cheetah (Takes nothing for a human to cover half a mile,)kill it and eat it. THAT’s the real world.

.

What?

Did you just assert that you’d easily outrun the cheetah? And that it’s somehow the REAL world?

Okay, I’ll play. Here’s a math problem:

Hungry Dave is chasing Felix. Felix runs a half mile in 30 seconds. Dave runs a half mile in 2 minutes(that’s a 4 minute mile folks!). Both are extremely tired at the finish line. Felix has been resting for a minute and a half when he sees Dave approaching. Can Dave catch up to Felix?[/quote]

You’re right. In the real world, animals don’t jog. They run away from prey or towards food. That was my point to my friend.

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
2274 wrote:
You can’t compare the strongest squatter with the strongest deadlifter. There is no strongest man in the world.

It’s the same guy. Andy Bolton. He’s your avatar. I’m pretty sure the heavier squat made by someone else is highly contested and not official. Andy Bolton clearly has the Strongest Legs in the world.
[/quote]

I lol’d hard at that one!!! Big Vlad has taken Bolton’s squat records now, I thin Donnie beat it before that too, but I’ve no doubt Bolton will come back to reclaim it later in the year.

And before anyone says anything about equipped deadlifts and “fake” strength, Bolton pulled 930something in just a singlet.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
2274 wrote:
You can’t compare the strongest squatter with the strongest deadlifter. There is no strongest man in the world.

It’s the same guy. Andy Bolton. He’s your avatar. I’m pretty sure the heavier squat made by someone else is highly contested and not official. Andy Bolton clearly has the Strongest Legs in the world.

I lol’d hard at that one!!! Big Vlad has taken Bolton’s squat records now, I thin Donnie beat it before that too, but I’ve no doubt Bolton will come back to reclaim it later in the year.

And before anyone says anything about equipped deadlifts and “fake” strength, Bolton pulled 930something in just a singlet.[/quote]

930+ is big time. I don’t think there is a single dominant strongest guy since Kaz. But there a lot of guys who are pretty impressive, with bolton and Savickas coming first to my mind.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
2274 wrote:
You can’t compare the strongest squatter with the strongest deadlifter. There is no strongest man in the world.

It’s the same guy. Andy Bolton. He’s your avatar. I’m pretty sure the heavier squat made by someone else is highly contested and not official. Andy Bolton clearly has the Strongest Legs in the world.

I lol’d hard at that one!!! Big Vlad has taken Bolton’s squat records now, I thin Donnie beat it before that too, but I’ve no doubt Bolton will come back to reclaim it later in the year.

And before anyone says anything about equipped deadlifts and “fake” strength, Bolton pulled 930something in just a singlet.[/quote]

Bolton and Vlad are a little weak in the bench though compared to Thompson, but I think they pull ahead becasue of the squatting and deadlifting.

Vlad is a great fellow btw. He was staying with an acquaintance of mine in the Columbus, Ohio area as of last year’s Arnold Classic. He’s very funny and a nice guy. I also heard he could put away the vodka, hahaha!

[quote]Hanley wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
2274 wrote:

I lol’d hard at that one!!! Big Vlad has taken Bolton’s squat records now, I thin Donnie beat it before that too, but I’ve no doubt Bolton will come back to reclaim it later in the year.

[/quote]

Doesn’t Donnie have the record for the Total?

[quote]tom63 wrote:

Learning the gear is not easy and not to be sneezed at, of course.

[/quote]

I’m not gear bashing. I’m trying to get across the point that learning the gear is such an important factor that it makes the Squat and Bench require more than just pure strength.

Imo, Oly Lifting has the strongest athletes. Or in the very least, it potentially has the strongest athletes of all the Iron sports.

Oly lifters are chosen and weaned through the process of elimination to the point that only the very best rise to the top. The cream of the crop. Not only are Oly lifters chosen early as a kid, they have to meet certain criteria, one such being the vertical jump. In short, not just any Joe-schmoe can be an Oly lifter. You have to be an absolute genetic freak. Take Naim Suleymanuglu for example: if I remember correctly, he went through a process in which they had doctors and sport experts basically tell him which sport he would most likely excel at, and that sport was weightlifting.

On the other hand, you don’t really have that kind of process with powerlifting and strongman. Rarely do you ever hear of cases where kids grow up specifically bred to be PL or strongman. And the biggest reason of all is that neither sport is very popular, or has yet to gain the same type of popularity as weightlifting in most countries. And we can all agree that popularity generates interest. Interest generates money. And money is the mother of all attraction to any kind of athletes. Therefore, the best athlete will flock to the sports with the most money, or at the very least, more popularity.

Do you not agree that the best athletes in America are in Football? If so, then the same is true for most Eastern European countries, China, Russia, etc. where Weightlifting is almost considered a national sport, capable of attracting the best athletes. It’s only very recently has PL and Strongman caught on in most of those countries. OL, on the other hand, has got over a 100 year history in most of those countries.

Besides those reasonings, there’s the results themselves. Guys like Mark Henry and Shane Hamman who are OL who hold records in squats that still stands today, if I’m not mistaken. Henry also tried the Arnold Strongman for fun and won that year. Then there’s Mikhail Koklyaev, a very good weightlifter who does strongman as a hobby, consistently coming in top 5 or top 3 with behemoths like Savikas and co.

And that’s just 2-3 good weightlifters. Imagine had guys like Alexyev, Kurlovich, Pisarenko, Taranenko, Reza, Weller, Chemerkin – all elite level WL – had taken the route of PL instead of OL? Or how about Yuri Zakharevich? This guy would far and away demolish any sort of records in the 100-110kg category in PL. Zakharevich weight 110kg with a 210kg snatch and 250 c&j – those numbers are out of this world. I’m confident within 1 or 2 years, these guys would probably break every single PL record, just because they’re such genetic freaks to begin with who just happened to have chosen OL instead.

I mean, the results of Koklyaev, Hamman and Henry speak for themselves.

Well, if you wanted a non politically correct answer, there it is. All my opinion, of course.

[quote]TNV wrote:
Imo, Oly Lifting has the strongest athletes. Or in the very least, it potentially has the strongest athletes of all the Iron sports. [/quote]

My point of contention would be this… Is the goal of weightlifting not to move the weight the absolute shortest amount neccessary and instead move your body around it?

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Hanley wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
2274 wrote:

I lol’d hard at that one!!! Big Vlad has taken Bolton’s squat records now, I thin Donnie beat it before that too, but I’ve no doubt Bolton will come back to reclaim it later in the year.

Doesn’t Donnie have the record for the Total?[/quote]

He does indeed!

[quote]Hanley wrote:
TNV wrote:
Imo, Oly Lifting has the strongest athletes. Or in the very least, it potentially has the strongest athletes of all the Iron sports.

My point of contention would be this… Is the goal of weightlifting not to move the weight the absolute shortest amount neccessary and instead move your body around it?[/quote]

Well, if there ever was downplaying a certain achievement, that would be it.

I’ll humor you and agree that WL is about moving your body around the weight. Ok. It still doesn’t change the fact that in a single movement of the clean and jerk, the athlete not only pulls a weight so fast and high that they can pull themselves under it, rack the weight in a rock bottom position, stand back up, and still summon enough strength and power to quickly jerk it over their head.

I mean, take a guy like Zhan Xugang for example. Even if you think weightlifting is about moving your body around the weight, take this clip for example: Educational Modules and Demos at Lift Up
Once again I’ll humor you and pretend the clean and and recovery aren’t really impressive. But then you see him OVERHEAD SQUATING ASS TO GRASS 207kg. Are you honestly going to tell me he somehow maneuvered his body around this weight and that somehow made OVERHEAD SQUATTING 450+ pounds less impressive? All this, at a bodyweight of 77kg? Can you name me a single under 80kg PL who can overhead squat 450+ pounds? I very much doubt there’s even a SHW PL who can do that.

Again, results speak for themselves. With all due respect, Hamman and Henry are decent weightlifters, but still to this day both hold a squat record in PL that has yet to be broken. Then there’s Koklyaev, who’s good but not elite, consistantly, year in year out, hang with arguably the strongest strongman of all time Savickas.

Again, just a perspective. If average to good weightlifters can make such achievements in powerlifting and strongman, imagine what an elite, Olympic gold medalist Olifter is capable of given enough time to train the big 3 and master the use of gears.

[quote]tom63 wrote:

I asked him in the animal kingdom where he ever saw lions and wildebeest ever jog for 12 hours. i told him if I could catch him in 100 yards he was food. that’s the way it works.

[/quote]

I love this statement. I have a brother in law who dabbles in triathalons and basically thinks it makes him a superior athlete.

I am going to have to bust that one out the next time he brings it up. Giving you full credit, of course.

[quote]TNV wrote:
Hanley wrote:
TNV wrote:
Imo, Oly Lifting has the strongest athletes. Or in the very least, it potentially has the strongest athletes of all the Iron sports.

My point of contention would be this… Is the goal of weightlifting not to move the weight the absolute shortest amount neccessary and instead move your body around it?

Well, if there ever was downplaying a certain achievement, that would be it.

I’ll humor you and agree that WL is about moving your body around the weight. Ok. It still doesn’t change the fact that in a single movement of the clean and jerk, the athlete not only pulls a weight so fast and high that they can pull themselves under it, rack the weight in a rock bottom position, stand back up, and still summon enough strength and power to quickly jerk it over their head.

I mean, take a guy like Zhan Xugang for example. Even if you think weightlifting is about moving your body around the weight, take this clip for example: Educational Modules and Demos at Lift Up
Once again I’ll humor you and pretend the clean and and recovery aren’t really impressive. But then you see him OVERHEAD SQUATING ASS TO GRASS 207kg. Are you honestly going to tell me he somehow maneuvered his body around this weight and that somehow made OVERHEAD SQUATTING 450+ pounds less impressive? All this, at a bodyweight of 77kg? Can you name me a single under 80kg PL who can overhead squat 450+ pounds? I very much doubt there’s even a SHW PL who can do that.

Again, results speak for themselves. With all due respect, Hamman and Henry are decent weightlifters, but still to this day both hold a squat record in PL that has yet to be broken. Then there’s Koklyaev, who’s good but not elite, consistantly, year in year out, hang with arguably the strongest strongman of all time Savickas.

Again, just a perspective. If average to good weightlifters can make such achievements in powerlifting and strongman, imagine what an elite, Olympic gold medalist Olifter is capable of given enough time to train the big 3 and master the use of gears. [/quote]

I’m just fucking about and trying to play devils advocate really. Besides… it’s about the strongest athlete. Not the one with the most potential for strength!

[quote]blazindave wrote:

A cheetah can reach speeds of 60 miles an hour. However after half a mile of running that fast, they need several minutes to recover and are extremely weak. They can barely move. I could easily outrun the cheetah (Takes nothing for a human to cover half a mile,)kill it and eat it. THAT’s the real world.

Anyway im done.
Sorry about that.[/quote]

Wow, I thought things turned weird when that guy quoted the bible. But you just said that you could beat a cheetah in a life and death situation. What makes you think that you wouldnt be outrun before teh first half mile? What makes you think you wouldnt be outrun before the first 100 feet? This is the stupidest thing I’ve read all month. Maybe all year

[quote]FightingScott wrote:

But I say whomever has the greatest Deadlift is the Strongest Man in the World. With the Use of Squat suits and Bench Shirts, technique has become incredibly important in Power-lifting. But Deadlift suits don’t provide as significant an aid in lifting the weight and they don’t really require the lifter to develop new techniques and precise grooves in order to get more out of the suits. So whether you’re for or against power-lifting gear, you must admit that the Deadlift is the greatest indicator of pure strength in Powerlifting, even if it is by a slim margin.
[/quote]

I dont buy this. I guarantee there are people who can out-deadlift me, but I whom I could out-squat (raw.) I wont whine and complain about my limb lengths, but I will say that there are those who have more favorable leverages in the deadlift than I do. But take the length out of my arms out of it, and my squat makes me look less-weak.

[quote]TNV wrote:
Imo, Oly Lifting has the strongest athletes. Or in the very least, it potentially has the strongest athletes of all the Iron sports.

Oly lifters are chosen and weaned through the process of elimination to the point that only the very best rise to the top. The cream of the crop. Not only are Oly lifters chosen early as a kid, they have to meet certain criteria, one such being the vertical jump. In short, not just any Joe-schmoe can be an Oly lifter. You have to be an absolute genetic freak. Take Naim Suleymanuglu for example: if I remember correctly, he went through a process in which they had doctors and sport experts basically tell him which sport he would most likely excel at, and that sport was weightlifting.

On the other hand, you don’t really have that kind of process with powerlifting and strongman. Rarely do you ever hear of cases where kids grow up specifically bred to be PL or strongman. And the biggest reason of all is that neither sport is very popular, or has yet to gain the same type of popularity as weightlifting in most countries. And we can all agree that popularity generates interest. Interest generates money. And money is the mother of all attraction to any kind of athletes. Therefore, the best athlete will flock to the sports with the most money, or at the very least, more popularity.

Do you not agree that the best athletes in America are in Football? If so, then the same is true for most Eastern European countries, China, Russia, etc. where Weightlifting is almost considered a national sport, capable of attracting the best athletes. It’s only very recently has PL and Strongman caught on in most of those countries. OL, on the other hand, has got over a 100 year history in most of those countries.

Besides those reasonings, there’s the results themselves. Guys like Mark Henry and Shane Hamman who are OL who hold records in squats that still stands today, if I’m not mistaken. Henry also tried the Arnold Strongman for fun and won that year. Then there’s Mikhail Koklyaev, a very good weightlifter who does strongman as a hobby, consistently coming in top 5 or top 3 with behemoths like Savikas and co.

And that’s just 2-3 good weightlifters. Imagine had guys like Alexyev, Kurlovich, Pisarenko, Taranenko, Reza, Weller, Chemerkin – all elite level WL – had taken the route of PL instead of OL? Or how about Yuri Zakharevich? This guy would far and away demolish any sort of records in the 100-110kg category in PL. Zakharevich weight 110kg with a 210kg snatch and 250 c&j – those numbers are out of this world. I’m confident within 1 or 2 years, these guys would probably break every single PL record, just because they’re such genetic freaks to begin with who just happened to have chosen OL instead.

I mean, the results of Koklyaev, Hamman and Henry speak for themselves.

Well, if you wanted a non politically correct answer, there it is. All my opinion, of course. [/quote]

First, it shouldnt be at all a surprise that Suleymanuglu was steered towards weightlifting. How tall was he, 5’ even? He NEEDED a sport with divided weight classes, so that severely restricts it in the first place. That’s not to say htat he wasnt one of the best OLers of all time, but I dont think he wouldve ever been a real threat on the soccer pitch, let alone the basketball court.

Second, as far as choosing guys with the best genetics, they werent chosen because they had “the best genetics” they had “the best genetics FOR OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTING.” It goes without saying that there are some incredibly strong dudes in OL. But being able to display your strength quickly does not necessarily equate to being able to display even greater strength over an extended period of time. Ever train with someone who can make their 1RM or near 1RM look easy, then have 10 lbs added to the bar and get crushed? I have. These are “make it or miss it” lifters who have completely different abilities than the guys who can strain through a lift. Maybe some OLers would make great PLers, maybe some wouldnt.

As far as hamman and Henry still having records, your point goes both ways. You say, “look, these OLers have records that stand in PL” but it could just as easily be said “look, these record-setting PLers made the OL team.” This is all probably irrelevant seeing as having a record in PL requires a few qualifications. I dont mean to disparage the usapl but it is inarguable that tehy do not have ALL of the strongest guys. Simply by virtue of the fact that powerlifting is split it makes it difficult if not impossible for any one fed to claim to have all the strongest guys. Besides that I do believe that teh strongest guys in PL are in teh double ply feds, but that’s besides the point. Simply that Hammans and Henry’s records have only been assailed by those who chose to lift in their particular fed, not any PLer who has ever gotten under the bar.