Westside/PLing Training Thread

[quote]LarryJr wrote:
Should I be arching when doing close grip bench?

Today will be my last BB style workout…at least for 8 weeks. I’m doing shoulders, tris and biceps.

I’m going to go heavy though:

Push press 8x3
Lateral raise 3x12
face pull 3x12
close grip bench 8x3
flat db tricep ext 4x6
oly bb curls 4x10
hammer curls 3x10[/quote]

You don’t have to bend yourself like a pretzel, besides it’s harder to arch a whole bunch on close grip. Focus more on keeping your lats and upper back tight at the bottom of the press, and from flaring your elbows out too much. There’s more shoulder rotation on the close grip and it will put more pressure on the elbows and shoulder joint.

[quote]novaeer wrote:

You don’t have to bend yourself like a pretzel, besides it’s harder to arch a whole bunch on close grip. Focus more on keeping your lats and upper back tight at the bottom of the press, and from flaring your elbows out too much. There’s more shoulder rotation on the close grip and it will put more pressure on the elbows and shoulder joint.[/quote]

Thanks, novaeer! Just like getting the squat down, I’m going to have to re-learn to bench. I just finished Dave Tate’s article on how to bench 600. It explained a lot.

[quote]skidmark wrote:
Gorichen wrote:
In mining my logs I find that my bench progresses when I have incline benching in the mix and stalls two weeks after taking it out. Seems like a no-brainer as to what to do about it…

Last upper session, did 1 arm db press - these do nothing for me shoulder-wise bilaterally except work the hell out of my obliques. Not wasting any more time on 'em.

skidmark, i have been reading this thread from its inception. in particular, i have been following your log with interest because you and i have similar lifting numbers as well as height and weight. my OHP seems to be quite a bit higher than yours so i think your bench may gain a lot by hitting the incline bench or push presses. just my 2 cents. keep lifting hard!

Interesting you should say that. I had been considering the push press, based on what Phill suggested a while back and was going to work it in on ME days. Thanks for the suggestion.[/quote]

Push presses are great, but watch your shoulders. The load you are handling is going to be much higher than with a strict press.

Before switching to a Westside template, I kept push presses in my rotation for 2+ months straight and they beat the shit out of my shoulders. They were so beat up that my bench dropped by almost 50lbs and I had to have 4 weeks of ART done on them to get back to normal.

Obviously you won’t keep them in the rotation for more than a few weeks, but just watch the shoulders (wrists too).

10/6/07 Full Body

[quote]remixpaul wrote:
do ur arch ur back when u do floor press? and why do u arch ur back when u do bench press?[/quote]

Yes, I pretty much try to arch on everything that I do (although I don’t do floor presses, so take it for what it’s worth). The more you practice arching, the better you’ll get.

I do it on flat bench, rack lockouts, close grips, band presses, even DB pullovers, nosebreakers, etc.

[quote]Modi wrote:

Push presses are great, but watch your shoulders. The load you are handling is going to be much higher than with a strict press.

Before switching to a Westside template, I kept push presses in my rotation for 2+ months straight and they beat the shit out of my shoulders. They were so beat up that my bench dropped by almost 50lbs and I had to have 4 weeks of ART done on them to get back to normal.

Obviously you won’t keep them in the rotation for more than a few weeks, but just watch the shoulders (wrists too).[/quote]

Hey, Modi

Do any of the Westside templates include overhead pressing? From what I have read it seams that only shoulder raises and prehab work is included.

10/6/07 Full Body

Today is the first day training since messing up my upper back on Monday. I did lots of foam rolling, stretching and other mobility work the past couple days, and did extra before this workout. I promised myself to at least not do any heavy stuff.

A)Box Jump
30" x 5
41.5" x 3
43" x 3 x 4

Left pec minor got tight and sore while doing these again. I PNF’d it between sets and that helped. I have to admit I like doing these because I’m a 225 lb. white guy that doesn’t look like he should be able to jump up onto a big stack of boxes w/ a nice, soft landing.

B1)Flat DB Press
50 x 5
110 x 10 x 3 (tie PR for 3 sets of 10)

B2)Pullup (wide, pronated grip)
BW x 3
BW x 8 x 3

C)Pistol Squat off 16" box, paused=8 x 3

D1)Blast Strap Fallouts, paused=8 x 3

D2)45 Degree Back Raise w/ 45# plate=15 x 2

E)Dips x 15-20, somewhere in there

F)Jettison Curls w/ blue aerobics band
60 + band x 10
60 x 10
band x 10

NOTES: I almost did what I had planned–I felt like doing DB presses instead of Blast-Strap pushups so I did that. Otherwise, no heavy loads on my back and definitely a lot of energy expended. Never felt any pain in my back during or after the session.

Assuming all is well, I’ll go back to some heavy work next week.

[quote]Matt McGorry wrote:
http://www.powerdevelopmentinc.com/?id=16

This is an interesting article that I dug up, written by James Smith (aka Thinker) of Elitefts.com and the bench press.

His stuff is not the easiest to read, but I find most of it to be incredibly interesting. I suggest that you guys give it a look and perhaps you may draw conclusions that will be of relevance to your own training.

-Matt[/quote]

He basically says that he has dropped RE (8-20) rep work and DE work in favor of submaximal efforts and super high reps (40-70) and seen a 35 lb increase in his bench in 7 weeks. He credits this to reducing the CNS fatigue DE bench was causing and the improvement in form he was able to train in the SE efforts along with the joint improvement from the high reps.

I think many of us have dropped DE band work for the same reason and gone SE. Remember the 5x5 frenzy for a while? The difference is that he’s using his DE poundages to do his SE work if I read it aright. Nathaniel Hawthorne has nothing on this guy…

Mark Twain accused Nate Hawthorne (The Last Mohican) of never using one word where 5 will do.

Still - good viewpoint in the article and worth examining.

[quote]Modi wrote:
skidmark wrote:
Gorichen wrote:
In mining my logs I find that my bench progresses when I have incline benching in the mix and stalls two weeks after taking it out. Seems like a no-brainer as to what to do about it…

Last upper session, did 1 arm db press - these do nothing for me shoulder-wise bilaterally except work the hell out of my obliques. Not wasting any more time on 'em.

skidmark, i have been reading this thread from its inception. in particular, i have been following your log with interest because you and i have similar lifting numbers as well as height and weight. my OHP seems to be quite a bit higher than yours so i think your bench may gain a lot by hitting the incline bench or push presses. just my 2 cents. keep lifting hard!

Interesting you should say that. I had been considering the push press, based on what Phill suggested a while back and was going to work it in on ME days. Thanks for the suggestion.

Push presses are great, but watch your shoulders. The load you are handling is going to be much higher than with a strict press.

Before switching to a Westside template, I kept push presses in my rotation for 2+ months straight and they beat the shit out of my shoulders. They were so beat up that my bench dropped by almost 50lbs and I had to have 4 weeks of ART done on them to get back to normal.

Obviously you won’t keep them in the rotation for more than a few weeks, but just watch the shoulders (wrists too).[/quote]

50 lbs, yikes! I’ll watch out for that.

My shoulders are in pretty good shape these days esp. since taking a tennis ball to my shoulder blades and foam rolling my armpits (wanna use my roller?). I think that PPs’ll be more like partials and negatives for me and so used sparingly.

Still - I can’t help but think a nice weight gain of 10-15 lbs would help a lot with this too. Even 5 lbs. 180 lbs is kind of light for 6’.

2007-10-6
RE upper pull deload
out at playground as my son rode his skateboard:

5 sternum pullups
4 muscle ups (with kip - superman I ain’t)
8 side-to-side pullups
3x6 BW reverse rows
5 front levers from hang

“holy sh*t” from skateboarding/biking preteens with subsequent attempts by them at pullups and swing-and-release for distance.

[quote]Phill wrote:
cvb wrote:

Good luck with your show and getting into the academy:)

Claire

THANKS!! show went well one sale the first night so the lights will stay on :slight_smile: and will know more on the academy next thursday afternoon,

Thanks again
Phill[/quote]

Congratulations on your sale:)

Claire

While he appears to be “long-winded” I wouldn’t say that it is unjustifiably so. I appreciate his need to put everything in context and therefore provide a framework for the readers to make their own informed decisions about their training.

All too often, the problem that I find with training articles is that they contain what works for the author and without the supported logic of why something worked. While it is fine for someone who is solely an athlete, a coach or trainer would need to have an understanding of the exact circumstances that produced the result so that it could be replicated.

While he does say all of those things that you mentioned, I believe that there are a few interesting things that I have thought about and have rarely seen others comment on.

The first thing that I’ve thought about it relation to it is classification of an “advanced” athlete. Take a man (relative strength athlete) who weighs 200lbs and has a 330 bench, 455 squat and 550 deadlift. We might consider this person to be “strong.” If this person had only been working out for a year and getting his programs out of FLEX magazine, I wouldn’t consider him advanced. Despite his numbers, the room for improvement that he has is quite vast. Now say we have a person with the same stats who has been training his balls off for 5 years and gets his information from very reputable sources and coaches. This second man has experienced stagnation in lifts lasting months at a time.

The person that is closer to their genetic potential (naturally weaker) can thus be considered more advanced despite their numbers.

Due to this drug-free status, poor leverages, and non genetic freak status, he is making the claim that what he has learned would thus have relevance to drug using, heavy enough, genetic freaks.

As much as I’m undecided about this, it’s something that I’ve thought about quite a bit.

And seeing as I’m being quite long-winded myself, I’ll try to wrap it up…after this. :slight_smile:

The other very interesting point that he brings up is why a relative strength athlete would need to be doing much work in the RE range if they are already at their desired weight. If we’re not trying to increase muscle size, then what benefit is this rep range offering us? I’ve seen plenty of people who are just trying to increase relative strength doing a ton of RE work. It just raises the question, what is our justification for doing this if it won’t lead to increased neural adaptations or gains in strength irrespective of BW.

Just some thoughts.

-Matt

[quote]skidmark wrote:
Matt McGorry wrote:
http://www.powerdevelopmentinc.com/?id=16

This is an interesting article that I dug up, written by James Smith (aka Thinker) of Elitefts.com and the bench press.

His stuff is not the easiest to read, but I find most of it to be incredibly interesting. I suggest that you guys give it a look and perhaps you may draw conclusions that will be of relevance to your own training.

-Matt

He basically says that he has dropped RE (8-20) rep work and DE work in favor of submaximal efforts and super high reps (40-70) and seen a 35 lb increase in his bench in 7 weeks. He credits this to reducing the CNS fatigue DE bench was causing and the improvement in form he was able to train in the SE efforts along with the joint improvement from the high reps.

I think many of us have dropped DE band work for the same reason and gone SE. Remember the 5x5 frenzy for a while? The difference is that he’s using his DE poundages to do his SE work if I read it aright. Nathaniel Hawthorne has nothing on this guy…

Mark Twain accused Nate Hawthorne (The Last Mohican) of never using one word where 5 will do.

Still - good viewpoint in the article and worth examining.[/quote]

ME Bench
6’2-3/4"
250.1 lbs
2:30-3:15 pm

warmup Bench
135 x 16
225 x 7
275 x 3
50lb db bench x 20

Pin press (#14 5" from chest)
315 x 4
315 x 5

Full Range Bench
225 x 16 (close to 17)

Pin press (#14 5" from chest)
295 x 3

Chin Ups
Wide grip x 8 + Close Grip x 5

Incline Press Machine
360 x 12 + 3 forced reps

Bicep Machine
115 x 10 + 3 forced reps

[quote]Matt McGorry wrote:
While he appears to be “long-winded” I wouldn’t say that it is unjustifiably so. I appreciate his need to put everything in context and therefore provide a framework for the readers to make their own informed decisions about their training.

All too often, the problem that I find with training articles is that they contain what works for the author and without the supported logic of why something worked. While it is fine for someone who is solely an athlete, a coach or trainer would need to have an understanding of the exact circumstances that produced the result so that it could be replicated.
[/quote]

Actually, he makes the same claim - that he is talking about his specific situation and results although he does provide support for generalization and application of his theory to others.

Yes - advanced is a slippery term. A person who has stalled for months or years (hey - you talkin’ to me?) may be more experienced than a lifter pushing the same poundages as the first lifter for only a year, all other things also being equal. But is the first lifter more advanced? How can you tell if someone is wringing out every ounce of their genetic potential or just listening to bad advice, however expensive?

This possiblility for fuzziness in the term “advanced” may be the reason that the powerlifting classifications concentrate on poundages, rather than training age or experience or education. What, in fact, ARE the criteria that define an advanced lifter? Success on the platform? Years training? Degrees? Who trained you? Or some combination of those and other criteria?

So he is claiming to be a worst-case-scenario. joke, joke. I agree. He’s saying that he has no advantage whatever and this programming improved his bench. Therefore it should help those who have greater potential or “assistance.”

Exactly. If a person wants to remain at a given weight yet become stronger, how is a program designed to build muscle tissue going to help them? So instead grease the groove™ with submax and high rep and become neurally efficient.

Very interesting ones, Matt. Thanks.

[quote]novaeer wrote:
Boris B wrote:
Posted this in the BB forum - should have just posted it here from the beginning. Hope someone finds it useful…

I don’t claim to be an expert of Westside methods, but if you are someone new to powerlifting and/or S&C, this will help you sort out the basic template and understand the difference between “maximum effort” training sessions and “dynamic effort” training sessions.

Squat Rx #17: Westside Basics (Part I)

Squat Rx#17: Westside Basics (Part II)

I’ve watched the entire series. You’ve done a great service for everybody by producing these videos. Any thoughts about doing anything more detailed for the bench in your Rx series?[/quote]

I’m thinking about doing a deadlift and bench video or two, but I’d like to do some more w. squatting if I can get cambered bars and other equipment to review.
Thanks for the kind words!

[quote]LarryJr wrote:
Modi wrote:

Push presses are great, but watch your shoulders. The load you are handling is going to be much higher than with a strict press.

Before switching to a Westside template, I kept push presses in my rotation for 2+ months straight and they beat the shit out of my shoulders. They were so beat up that my bench dropped by almost 50lbs and I had to have 4 weeks of ART done on them to get back to normal.

Obviously you won’t keep them in the rotation for more than a few weeks, but just watch the shoulders (wrists too).

Hey, Modi

Do any of the Westside templates include overhead pressing? From what I have read it seams that only shoulder raises and prehab work is included.

[/quote]
I don’t think many (if any) of the guys at Westside do much overhead work for their ME movement. But depending on your goals, you might be able to incorporate it. If you are training strictly for the Big 3, then it’s probably not as useful, but if you have other goals, then it might fit in nicely.

A lot of the guys (here and elsewhere) that are training for Strongman incorporate it because it is specific to their events.

I use overhead pressing as either a supplemental movement or more often than not, an accessory movement, and I usually train it with DB’s because it is easier on my shoulders.

Offhand, I don’t know if it’s incorporated in any of the templates. I don’t recall seeing it listed anywhere as a primary movement, but don’t quote me on that.

[quote]Boris B wrote:
novaeer wrote:
Boris B wrote:
Posted this in the BB forum - should have just posted it here from the beginning. Hope someone finds it useful…

I don’t claim to be an expert of Westside methods, but if you are someone new to powerlifting and/or S&C, this will help you sort out the basic template and understand the difference between “maximum effort” training sessions and “dynamic effort” training sessions.

Squat Rx #17: Westside Basics (Part I)

Squat Rx#17: Westside Basics (Part II)

I’ve watched the entire series. You’ve done a great service for everybody by producing these videos. Any thoughts about doing anything more detailed for the bench in your Rx series?
I’m thinking about doing a deadlift and bench video or two, but I’d like to do some more w. squatting if I can get cambered bars and other equipment to review.
Thanks for the kind words![/quote]

I agree. Those videos are awesome. I really appreciated the significant thought and effort put into them. I would certainly be interested in bench and dl ones.

[quote]Phill wrote:
show went well one sale the first night so the lights will stay on :slight_smile:

Phill[/quote]

Congratulations on the sale Phill. Nice.

[quote]Kalle wrote:
Good job man, I need to catch you on the deficit deads. They are AWFULLY close to your standard dead. Have you considered rotating anything else in? Maybe pull from a higher box? Not saying you should, just wondering.[/quote]

I haven’t thought much about what else to do for deadlifts. I haven’t stalled yet on the deficit deadlift, so I’m just gonna keep going with the flow and see where this goes. One thing that I have been wanting to do is incorporating some rack pulls into my rotation.

If/when my deficit deadlift stalls, I might put those in just to get used to pulling more than my max deadlift. Then, when I get back to deadlifting, hopefully I’ll be used to more weight on the bar. I guess it’s a blessing so far that I haven’t had to look in that direction yet.

[quote]Modi wrote:
…that would just be to whoreish.
[/quote]
As if you’ve never been accused of that before… :wink: