Westside for Skinny Powerlifters?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

I am trying to get my buddy to gain some weight and improve his lifts.

He is a skinny bastard (165 lbs soaking wet) with decent numbers for someone who has never trained before. I had him max in previous workouts and we came up with 215/225/315.

Anyway, I want to design him a program that is going to work and my first thought was to look at doing a version of westside for skinny bastards.

Since I know exactly jack shit about westside, and I want to eventually transition him to his goal of powerlifting I figured that this would be a good alternative as the intent of this program is for new lifters, who are skinny and need to get stronger/learn the lifts. (Later on I will transition him to more traditional dynamic effort work, and we will incorporate some simple chain work, etc. Nothing too fancy.)

I am going to spend the next few weeks teaching him form out of Starting Strength (I have been working with him here and there, but nothing as consistently as I will be able to do now), and then I will transition him from the version of 5/3/1 I am doing, to a program more suited to his current stage in training (WS4SB). I train more on feel and need than fresh newbie should. He needs more consistent work and to gain weight/build a good base.

Yes I said 5/3/1. He has never trained consistently enough to have his own program, so I never made him one. He just showed up and did what I was doing that day, then he would miss 3 days, and come back. Well, he has now made 3 weeks without missing, and survived the whole “maxing out with proper form” thing (Squat below parallel, paused bench, and deadlift with respectable form.)

Anyway, my question was not if I am doing the right thing. I know I can make just about any program work for a novice lifter. My question is, which version of WS4SB is the most like a traditional westside template?

I think WS4SB3 is the closest to being like a traditional westside template as you are going to get on this program, but again I know shit about conjugate method work.

DISCLAIMER: If your answer is going to be something ridiculous like “you cant train westside without being under the strict supervision of Louie Simmons,” or “there is no traditional westside template, it varies for each individual,” or some other ridiculous bullshit, please just save your response and go argue on another thread.

2

I also want to add that the program we choose of the 3 available will be done as written until we both deem that he needs a major change before he is going to progress beyond what most would consider to be average lifts. (I do fully acknowledge that this day may not come for months of years.) At that point in time we will modify the program to meet his needs more specifically, whatever that may be.

3

I’m curious why you want him to train westside if you don’t know much about the conjugate method or westside in general, and additionally, why you want the program to be the most like westside. I feel like 5/3/1 will do a much better job meeting your goals.

The problem with asking about the “traditional westside template” is that there isn’t one. Westside is simply a collection of ideas that work. The closest you get to a template is 2 ME days and 2 DE days, with 72 hours between ME and DE days. That means, if you’re looking for program loyalty, none of the programs really are like the westside approach, because DeFranco subbed out DE upper with RE upper (which was intentional). WS4SB III is probably the closest bet, just because it’s a 4 day program with a DE lower day in it, but they are their own programs that borrowed lessons from westside.

4

I did WS4SB3 when I was getting back into lifting almost exactly two years ago. I think it’s the best program for noobs. Even now, if I get super busy for some reason, I’d give it a try again.

To be honest it doesn’t full adhere to the “westside” base principles, but it works quite well for a beginner to put on size and strength. With the max effort days, make sure he takes small jumps to build up volume and keep the same movement for 3-4 weeks.

5

[quote]trivium wrote:
I am trying to get my buddy to gain some weight and improve his lifts.[/quote]
What are you telling him about nutrition?

Figuring that’s squat/bench/dead, is there a reason for the low squat other than him being a beginner? Is he 6’3", previously injured, or something?

I’m confused. It sounds like you’re having him do Starting Strength for a little while, and then 5/3/1 for a little while, and then WS4SB. Sticking with one program for several months would be the better plan for a beginner.

I don’t really get why it matters. We know that “classic” Westside was meant to help powerlifters and it works fine; WS4SB was meant to help athletes and “normal” folks and it works fine. “Westside for a skinny powerlifter” would almost certainly be plain old Westside training while eating like a post-hibernation Grizzly (see also: Dave Tate Pizza Party).

Like you said, pretty much any decent program you get him to stick with will work, so it’s not too big a deal how similar one is to the other.

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Will respond to these tomorrow when I get a chance.

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I can tell you as a former (and sort of current) skinny bastard I’ve had more success with simple 5x5 programs with accessory work in the 8-12 rep range.

At 5’9" I started lifting at 130 pounds and ultimately got to 190 pounds just doing 5x5. In 2012, I fell all the way down to 162 pounds due to my job and last year got back to 180 pounds, again doing simple 5x5.

5/3/1 is a great program for most, but the original written program was not enough frequency for me personally and I got weaker in my bench and squat. I am not sure how “Beyond 5/3/1” is written and the new methods there (I currently have the book on order actually) but I can say with 100% confidence Madcow and an “advanced” form of 5x5 have worked wonders for me in the past.

Currently I do 4 weeks of 6x8, 4 weeks of 5x5, and 4 weeks of 3x3 ramping the intensity up over the course of the 4 week block. It has worked well for me. I have also done WS4SB, it works for sure, but it has not been AS effective.

This is just my personal experience and I believe to a degree anything will work as long as your eating and persistently training hard. I just know frequency is a huge component for me in order to get stronger while reinforcing motor patterns.

8

Still jammed for time. Sorry guys.

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[quote]Evolv wrote:
I can tell you as a former (and sort of current) skinny bastard I’ve had more success with simple 5x5 programs with accessory work in the 8-12 rep range.

At 5’9" I started lifting at 130 pounds and ultimately got to 190 pounds just doing 5x5. In 2012, I fell all the way down to 162 pounds due to my job and last year got back to 180 pounds, again doing simple 5x5.

5/3/1 is a great program for most, but the original written program was not enough frequency for me personally and I got weaker in my bench and squat. I am not sure how “Beyond 5/3/1” is written and the new methods there (I currently have the book on order actually) but I can say with 100% confidence Madcow and an “advanced” form of 5x5 have worked wonders for me in the past.

Currently I do 4 weeks of 6x8, 4 weeks of 5x5, and 4 weeks of 3x3 ramping the intensity up over the course of the 4 week block. It has worked well for me. I have also done WS4SB, it works for sure, but it has not been AS effective.

This is just my personal experience and I believe to a degree anything will work as long as your eating and persistently training hard. I just know frequency is a huge component for me in order to get stronger while reinforcing motor patterns.

[/quote]

What version of 5x5 did you do and how many times a week did you train each lift out of interest ?

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Google ‘Matt Rhodes getting ready to powerlift’ for a good beginners/mass building westside template

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[quote]tredaway wrote:

[quote]Evolv wrote:
I can tell you as a former (and sort of current) skinny bastard I’ve had more success with simple 5x5 programs with accessory work in the 8-12 rep range.

At 5’9" I started lifting at 130 pounds and ultimately got to 190 pounds just doing 5x5. In 2012, I fell all the way down to 162 pounds due to my job and last year got back to 180 pounds, again doing simple 5x5.

5/3/1 is a great program for most, but the original written program was not enough frequency for me personally and I got weaker in my bench and squat. I am not sure how “Beyond 5/3/1” is written and the new methods there (I currently have the book on order actually) but I can say with 100% confidence Madcow and an “advanced” form of 5x5 have worked wonders for me in the past.

Currently I do 4 weeks of 6x8, 4 weeks of 5x5, and 4 weeks of 3x3 ramping the intensity up over the course of the 4 week block. It has worked well for me. I have also done WS4SB, it works for sure, but it has not been AS effective.

This is just my personal experience and I believe to a degree anything will work as long as your eating and persistently training hard. I just know frequency is a huge component for me in order to get stronger while reinforcing motor patterns.

[/quote]

What version of 5x5 did you do and how many times a week did you train each lift out of interest ?
[/quote]

I have a log on here and that is essentially what I’ve done. It is called ‘Evolv’s Strength Log’ if you’re interested.

To basically answer your question though I did Madcow for about 6 months before it tapered off to nothing but frustration and then started doing what I mentioned above in the last post (6x8, 5x5, 3x3). I would squat, bench, row all 2-3 times per week. Front squats occasionally once per week. OH presses 1-2 tmes per week. I don’t really deadlift anymore. I don’t compete and really see much benefit in doing it, for me personally anyway. It just takes away from my squatting, and instead I’ll do some sort of Olympic lift or variation in place of it.

The routine’s are written out for 3 days per week, but I don’t really follow that to a “T.” Rather, I go on how I feel and so sometimes it’ll work out to 4 days a week for me.

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Thanks Evolv I really enjoyed your training lol you lifted some decent weights :slight_smile:

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[quote]tredaway wrote:
Thanks Evolv I really enjoyed your training lol you lifted some decent weights :slight_smile: [/quote]
Thank you! :slight_smile:

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Resurrecting thread…

Questions.

  1. Why have him do Westside? - Training ADD, more specifically tailored to his needs, I am going to use him as an experiment. My version of 5/3/1 that he currently does is for my needs, not his. I want to teach him how to program and think as much as I want to learn to program and think. He is basically of the crew that just comes in with a bigger guy and does what he is told. I want him to learn and be able to reciprocate/contribute to the group’s work.

  2. What have I told him about nutrition? - I have told him that he is skinny as hell and the only way to get bigger AND stronger is to eat more calories than he burns in a day while making solid nutritional choices. I also told him that because he is so small that he can get away with things like chicken sandwiches from McDonalds and greasy pizza more than others can. (He has put on about 10 lbs since I started this thread. His abs have gotten a little blurry, so I am telling him to start making better food choices if he is uncomfortable losing his “conditioning.” His lifts have improved dramatically. He is far from a consistent eater though.)

  3. Why is his squat so low? - He has never really worked his legs or low back. He is also new to squatting, and I am picky about depth. We are still working on form and what not. This has been a bit of a struggle and I am still trying to convince him to read about proper “starter form” in starting strength. He is pretty intent on putting in his headphones on full blast and just doing whatever instead of listening for cues and pointers during the lift. I have tried to get him to ditch the loud music shit until he has decent form and can cue himself and get a feeling for what his body is doing in space.

  4. Why so many programs brah? - We are having a bit of a discipline issue with respect to certain percentages and numbers for reps/sets and what not. (Yes, if you have read my log, this is kind of the pot calling the kettle black as I fail reps more than I would like, but he will do extra drop sets, or rest pause, or do a super set, or even add sets/reps when that is not the programming for the day.) My plan is to have him learn the form in starting strength while we do my version of 5/3/1. In 3 or 4 months, and when he gets the form down, our experiment will begin. I will switch him to less complicated version of Westside (probably WS4SB3) and use roughly the same numbers to calculate his Max effort work. He will already have learned about a training max from 5/3/1, so this will fit him perfectly. Also DeFranco makes modifications for raw beginners which we can tinker with after the initial 4 to 6 months of that program. Eventually this will transition him into his own custom version of Westside, and we both will have learned a great deal about programming and what works in different situations.

15

[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Google ‘Matt Rhodes getting ready to powerlift’ for a good beginners/mass building westside template[/quote]

Man, you are full of great info. Thanks for the post.

I also have looked at “In the Beginning” by Bob Youngs on EliteFTS. That is obviously for more advanced lifters than the Matt Rhodes program is designed for.

Those are solid articles.

16

I am doing the same thing with one of my other friends who is running a 5x5 program that I wrote based on Starting Strength. He is a bit more disciplined and is making great progress as well.

I am assuming that for westside to work for a beginner, we will be doing some slightly different variations of exercises than a larger and more experienced lifter would choose.

17

I don’t know how most people here feel about WS4SB3 but as a relative beginner (I had been lifting for about 1.5-2 years) I found that it worked well and it does play well for someone with training ADD because you get to change it up every three weeks.

18

[quote]AngryLeprechaun wrote:
I don’t know how most people here feel about WS4SB3 but as a relative beginner (I had been lifting for about 1.5-2 years) I found that it worked well and it does play well for someone with training ADD because you get to change it up every three weeks.[/quote]

I feel like it also going to be easier to teach what Dynamic Effort is with jumps than with a barbell. I am assuming that this is going to be a bit of a battle as we have struggled with some other easy things that I mentioned in the past.

19

[quote]trivium wrote:

I feel like it also going to be easier to teach what Dynamic Effort is with jumps than with a barbell. I am assuming that this is going to be a bit of a battle as we have struggled with some other easy things that I mentioned in the past.[/quote]

Yeah, I would advise starting with something simple like broad jumps and just teach that hip snap (to be honest, this isn’t what I did, but I was also a DB on the football team so jumping wasn’t exactly a foreign concept. And because no one had told me that there was proper jumping form).

But overall, teach something that works on a good hip snap, the vert is another good option and I know DeFranco talks about it a lot.

Sorry for this being a longer post than I intended, but if the hip snap becomes hard to grasp, read Dan John’s article on here about the metabolic swing, it has a nice simple stretch that teaches the hammies and glutes to turn on and it helps with pretty much every hinge.