I’m new to the whole max effort philosophy and I can’t help but think that if you are maxing 1-2 times a week (upper and lower), even if the exercise changes every week, how you could not burn out after a couple of weeks.
Do you guys burn out, or do you take weeks off every couple, or do you just get used to it? I mean, guys are straight giving it their all, several hundred pounds to failure, every week! For upper and lower! I would love to learn more!
Yup, burnout will happen. You could probably delay it if you are on roids. For a natural lifter it is even worse. You need to build up your volume on assistance exercises very sloooowly. The higher you can get your work capacity the less of a chance you will overtrain. Every 3 weeks you need to deload on your max effort day to stay fresh. I didn’t do that nearly enough in my current training cycle and I am feeling the effects very close to a meet. Listen to your body but don’t slack off.
I started and am still using Bob Youngs beginners program and have had very good success with it. My work capacity is low and the program is very low volume but is a great introduction in to Westside IMO. I still make strength gains and at the same time can bring up my work capacity.
Maybe Westside hasn’t worked for me in the past because I didn’t deload. I have tried Westside twice and WSSB once and I didn’t get good results.
My guess is that my lack of progress was due to CNS fatigue or selecting the wrong exercises for ME days. I will try it again one day.
Every fourth week you must back off on WSB or similiar workouts. In the older WSB articles, Louie had them doing a rep week every fourth week. They got away from it but Louie has told me he is pushing them all back to it.
Some ways to avoid burnout.
jack
[quote]jackreape wrote:
Every fourth week you must back off on WSB or similiar workouts. In the older WSB articles, Louie had them doing a rep week every fourth week. They got away from it but Louie has told me he is pushing them all back to it.
Some ways to avoid burnout.
jack[/quote]
Jack,
Thanks for the info!! How should one rotate their ME exercises when they have limited equipment? Say you can only do about 3 different ME exercises like the board press, pin press and close grip press. Are these exercises too similar to continually rotate these three lifts?
[quote]basementD wrote:
jackreape wrote:
Every fourth week you must back off on WSB or similiar workouts. In the older WSB articles, Louie had them doing a rep week every fourth week. They got away from it but Louie has told me he is pushing them all back to it.
Some ways to avoid burnout.
jack
Jack,
Thanks for the info!! How should one rotate their ME exercises when they have limited equipment? Say you can only do about 3 different ME exercises like the board press, pin press and close grip press. Are these exercises too similar to continually rotate these three lifts?
[/quote]
Different grip lengths, bands, different levels of board presses or pin presses, the combinations really are endless.
[quote]hoosierdaddy wrote:
basementD wrote:
jackreape wrote:
Every fourth week you must back off on WSB or similiar workouts. In the older WSB articles, Louie had them doing a rep week every fourth week. They got away from it but Louie has told me he is pushing them all back to it.
Some ways to avoid burnout.
jack
Jack,
Thanks for the info!! How should one rotate their ME exercises when they have limited equipment? Say you can only do about 3 different ME exercises like the board press, pin press and close grip press. Are these exercises too similar to continually rotate these three lifts?
Different grip lengths, bands, different levels of board presses or pin presses, the combinations really are endless.
[/quote]
hoosierdaddy,
Should I try to alternate between partial movements and full movements, i.e- close grip bench for 1-2 weeks and then board presses for 1-2 weeks or does it matter?
I believe that Defranco recommends that rotation to lifters who do not use gear becuause they need that development for the lower end of their bench.
I?m doing a Metal Militia template right now, and it involves max, shirted, full-range reps every week, and have been thriving on it for over a year now without chemical enhancement. You really do just get used to it. Of course I also love high-intensity, low volume training too. YMMV: some of our guys have tried it and burned out instantly.
I do find a de-load week every month nice, but have gone for up to 8 weeks without when the meet schedule demanded. I do have to say I felt pretty rough on week nine!
As to how many ME exercises you need: Essentially I am doing the same ME exercise every week (full range equipped bench). Based on that I would say that if you rotate three through, you should be fine, especially if you vary them up (close/comp/wide grip, 2-board, 3-board, 4-board)
I find Power Drive really does help with the CNS fatigue, as does adding in more sleep. Two, one-hour naps a week make a huge difference
It should be noted that you cannot follow the full Metal Militia template combined with a real westside lower body template. You will burn out within a couple of weeks.
[quote]W.E.C wrote:
I?m doing a Metal Militia template right now, and it involves max, shirted, full-range reps every week, and have been thriving on it for over a year now without chemical enhancement. You really do just get used to it. Of course I also love high-intensity, low volume training too. YMMV: some of our guys have tried it and burned out instantly.
I do find a de-load week every month nice, but have gone for up to 8 weeks without when the meet schedule demanded. I do have to say I felt pretty rough on week nine!
As to how many ME exercises you need: Essentially I am doing the same ME exercise every week (full range equipped bench). Based on that I would say that if you rotate three through, you should be fine, especially if you vary them up (close/comp/wide grip, 2-board, 3-board, 4-board)
I find Power Drive really does help with the CNS fatigue, as does adding in more sleep. Two, one-hour naps a week make a huge difference
[/quote]
Ttewell: You are quite right, I do not follow a Westside lower body scheme.
I do know a couple people who do exactly that though, and seem to have havning good results, and was, quite honestly thinking about trying it myself.
Generally the MM Assistance day displaces the Westside DE Bench, and the MM heavy day displaces the Westside ME Bench. The overall structure is similar (i.e. Main movement+assistance) and the split of two bench days a week works in well…
What do you see as problems with running the two together?
[quote]buckeye75 wrote:
I believe that Defranco recommends that rotation to lifters who do not use gear becuause they need that development for the lower end of their bench. [/quote]
Thanks buckeye75.
[quote]W.E.C wrote:
As to how many ME exercises you need: Essentially I am doing the same ME exercise every week (full range equipped bench). Based on that I would say that if you rotate three through, you should be fine, especially if you vary them up (close/comp/wide grip, 2-board, 3-board, 4-board)
[/quote]
Wow!! How can you do the same ME exercise every week? I guess changing up exercises every couple of weeks is only a guideline and not written in stone.
That happened to me also, so I changed the ME rep structure, I always begin my Westside bench cycle with 2 wks of flat db presses 3xfailure, then 5RM for 2wks, 3RM for 2 wks, then lastly 1RM for 2 weeks, this will not only keep you fresh but also will prevent the dreaded elbow pain, always change it up, you can do 1RM and when you’re starting to feel beat up just change it to 3RM or 5RM and when you’re better go back to 1RM. Or you can do like the Metal Militia guys, they go full throttle for 3 to 4 weeks and when they’re burned out they’ll take 1 to 2 weeks off and come back even stronger, mix it up and keep logs so you can remember what worked for you.
Basement: The Metal Militia template is all about equipped benching. Modern shirts are very tricky to use, and take a lot of reps to learn, therefore you have to bench, full range, in your shirt a lot.
If you are not switching up you ME exercises, you may be doing conjugated periodization, but you’re probably not doing Westside. MM is most certainly not Westside, but arguably is conjugated periodization.
If you are a full meet powerlifter than you would probably be better off just dropping the raw day in the MM template. This is what Bill Crawford told me. If you train lower body heavy twice a week the volume will destroy you. The MM template was designed for benchers only and the volume is too extreme for a full meet lifter to recover from.
BTW I follow the MM assistance day (shirt day) 10 weeks out from a meet. Very early in a training cycle I take the time to use the raw day to bring up low end strength. This works very well.
[quote]W.E.C wrote:
Ttewell: You are quite right, I do not follow a Westside lower body scheme.
I do know a couple people who do exactly that though, and seem to have havning good results, and was, quite honestly thinking about trying it myself.
Generally the MM Assistance day displaces the Westside DE Bench, and the MM heavy day displaces the Westside ME Bench. The overall structure is similar (i.e. Main movement+assistance) and the split of two bench days a week works in well…
What do you see as problems with running the two together? [/quote]
I can believe that the volume could be a major issue. I am only competing in bench right now, but playing with the idea of going-three lift. I’d do it for sure if I didn’t have to deadlift!
Speaking of Crawford, I was at the Full Power Wars last weekend, and he benched 780-830-840. After the 830 he took the mike and dedicated the event to Anthony Clark. Very classy.
Do you find that 10 weeks is long enought to keep current with the shirt? I only had eight weeks leading up to FPW and I didn’t have enough time to feel comfortable in denim…Though it was my first time seriously trying denim.
[quote]TTewell342 wrote:
If you are a full meet powerlifter than you would probably be better off just dropping the raw day in the MM template. This is what Bill Crawford told me. If you train lower body heavy twice a week the volume will destroy you. The MM template was designed for benchers only and the volume is too extreme for a full meet lifter to recover from.
BTW I follow the MM assistance day (shirt day) 10 weeks out from a meet. Very early in a training cycle I take the time to use the raw day to bring up low end strength. This works very well.
W.E.C wrote:
Ttewell: You are quite right, I do not follow a Westside lower body scheme.
I do know a couple people who do exactly that though, and seem to have havning good results, and was, quite honestly thinking about trying it myself.
Generally the MM Assistance day displaces the Westside DE Bench, and the MM heavy day displaces the Westside ME Bench. The overall structure is similar (i.e. Main movement+assistance) and the split of two bench days a week works in well…
What do you see as problems with running the two together?
[/quote]
10 weeks was plenty of time for me. I use a very tight double denim (I’ve gained 25 lbs. since measured for it) and it has got a tough groove. Of course I have people constantly checking my form and I learned from Bill so I guess I had an advantage. The first 6 weeks i only did triples in my shirt and did a ton of lockouts. I learned the groove better and my strength skyrocketed. The last 3 weeks were for singles then of course a week of rest.
[quote]W.E.C wrote:
I can believe that the volume could be a major issue. I am only competing in bench right now, but playing with the idea of going-three lift. I’d do it for sure if I didn’t have to deadlift!
Speaking of Crawford, I was at the Full Power Wars last weekend, and he benched 780-830-840. After the 830 he took the mike and dedicated the event to Anthony Clark. Very classy.
Do you find that 10 weeks is long enought to keep current with the shirt? I only had eight weeks leading up to FPW and I didn’t have enough time to feel comfortable in denim…Though it was my first time seriously trying denim.
[/quote]
Jack hit the nail on the head. Taking a rep day every couple of weeks does wonders for the CNS. Sometimes I will also work up to a heavy triple rather than maxing out.
Also, eating clean and getting lots of rest is crucial when training at this capacity. Take good care of your body!
Good luck!
~E