Wendler's 5/3/1 Program - Part 5

Training Powerlifting
581

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
I’ve a question for those devoted to the system:

I’m in charge of soldiers, which is a new experience for me. I never thought I’d be good at it, but all of a sudden I find myself caring about someone else’s livelihood more than my own.

I don’t give a shit how they do on their PT test as long as they pass, I just want them to survive when they go downrange so they can get home. I’ve got them doing pretty basic strength training for the most part, the agile 8 for mobility, and interval runs to keep up with the 2 mile requirement. Some of them don’t get it, though, and think I’m detracting from the Army’s bigger picture of fitness and the warfighter.

What’s the best 5/3/1 template for someone who is forced to run 3 times a week, and do pushups and situps to muscle failure? Oh, and what the hell do I do here? How do you convince someone that a lack of strength is the worst weakness? I’m fucking sick of trying to save lives when everyone’s ready to run at a 7 minute mile pace into oncoming fire. [/quote]

The template Jim suggests for athletes in in-season might be something to consider.

Day1:
Squat: 5/3/1.
Bench: 5/3/1.

  • assistance.

Day2:
DL: 5/3/1.
OHP: 5/3/1.

  • assistance.

For assistence rows, chins and perhaps some rear delt and curls would be enough if they do alot of stuff outside the weightroom.

Here is the article I got this from:

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most.../531_and_athletes&sa=U&ei=HsXXUM77Demn4AT0mIG4Cg&ved=0CAcQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNH2kfkZAdtgPHkejHRWixil7Gt2TQ

Hope that was any help and good luck.[/quote]

This would be a good choice, but if it turns out to be too much, just go with one lift a day like this:

Squat
Hamstrings
Abs

Bench
Press assistance
Rows/chins

Deadlift
Quads
Abs

Press
Press assistance
Rows/chins

You could also do what I do when I am inseason, and flip flop the assistance work. So Squat and bench assistance, Bench and squat assistance, etc. This will keep them from having horrible leg soreness and trying to run the next day.

I would also highly suggest you have them just get the minimum reps and keep the assistance to like 3 sets or so. They will still make progress like this.

582

Thank you folks. Good advice all around.

583

I’ve read a bit here about Subbing Overhead Press for Push Press so I’m here to ask my question regarding my situation.

Before I started my current 531 Cycles, I had a 1rm of 70kg on Military Press and I done that 1rm in two different sessions a week part so it was true.

5 Cycles in, I’m struggling and stalling on only Military Press. By means of not even hitting my prescribed reps.

Here is the 3rd set of my Cycles.

Cycle 1…
Week 1 (3x5): 12 reps @ 52.5kg
Week 2 (3x3: 5 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 5 reps @ 60kg

Cycle 2…
Week 1 (3x5): 9 reps @ 55kg
Week 2 (3x3: 6 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 5 reps @ 62.5kg

Cycle 3…
Week 1 (3x5): 5 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 2 (3x3: 6 reps @ 60kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 3 reps @ 65kg

Cycle 4…
Week 1 (3x5): 4 reps @ 60kg
Week 2 (3x3: 5 Reps @ 62.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 3 reps @ 67.5kg

Cycle 5…
Week 1 (3x5): 2 reps @ 60kg
Week 2 (3x3: 2 Reps @ 65kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 1 reps @ 67.5kg

I feel that within the 60kg range I struggle to rep out the weight. Today Cycle 5, Week 3, as you can see I done 1 rep of 67.5kg, which isn’t very much off my original 1 rep of 70kg at the start.

My other lifts (Bench, Squat) are going fine at the moment. I remember though in my last 531 last year, my bench wasn’t doing much but my Military was going up. This time round it feels the opposite.

What do you think and what do you suggest ???

I was thinking about continuing through the planned cycles but Push Pressing instead of Military Pressing. However, Push Pressing for 531 and Military Pressing still for BBB 5x10 Sets.

Thanks for your help!!!

584

[quote]w-a-t-p wrote:
I’ve read a bit here about Subbing Overhead Press for Push Press so I’m here to ask my question regarding my situation.

Before I started my current 531 Cycles, I had a 1rm of 70kg on Military Press and I done that 1rm in two different sessions a week part so it was true.

5 Cycles in, I’m struggling and stalling on only Military Press. By means of not even hitting my prescribed reps.

Here is the 3rd set of my Cycles.

Cycle 1…
Week 1 (3x5): 12 reps @ 52.5kg
Week 2 (3x3: 5 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 5 reps @ 60kg

Cycle 2…
Week 1 (3x5): 9 reps @ 55kg
Week 2 (3x3: 6 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 5 reps @ 62.5kg

Cycle 3…
Week 1 (3x5): 5 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 2 (3x3: 6 reps @ 60kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 3 reps @ 65kg

Cycle 4…
Week 1 (3x5): 4 reps @ 60kg
Week 2 (3x3: 5 Reps @ 62.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 3 reps @ 67.5kg

Cycle 5…
Week 1 (3x5): 2 reps @ 60kg
Week 2 (3x3: 2 Reps @ 65kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 1 reps @ 67.5kg

I feel that within the 60kg range I struggle to rep out the weight. Today Cycle 5, Week 3, as you can see I done 1 rep of 67.5kg, which isn’t very much off my original 1 rep of 70kg at the start.

My other lifts (Bench, Squat) are going fine at the moment. I remember though in my last 531 last year, my bench wasn’t doing much but my Military was going up. This time round it feels the opposite.

What do you think and what do you suggest ???

I was thinking about continuing through the planned cycles but Push Pressing instead of Military Pressing. However, Push Pressing for 531 and Military Pressing still for BBB 5x10 Sets.

Thanks for your help!!!
[/quote]

Hey dude how’s it going.

I don’t think you should ditch the Military Press as a main lift.

  1. What routine were you following in the lead-up to your 70kg Military Presses?
  2. What assistance template do you currently run, particularly overhead assistance?
  3. What has your bodyweight been doing through this cycle?
  4. Have you run the deloads as required?
  5. Do you compete in any other sport or training heavily involving the shoulders?
585

Before anything, how are your other lifts? Is this the only lift that has stalled? Nutrition and recovery dialed in?

Stick to military press. After your work set, add in heavy singles. Do a few sets of your perceived max for the day. Run that for a few cycles and see what it does.

If it’s still stalling, I’d take some time off 531 rep scheme for military and opt for a higher volume approach. Start with a weight that you can do for 3x5 then try to get to 3x8. Actual reps/set don’t matter much to a limit, key here is progression. Increase the frequency too if possible.

586

I just came back from a shoulder surgery (type 2 slap tear) and the only lift I can do now is the deadlift. I can do the incline leg press machine becuase it puts no weight on my shoulder… Can I do the DL workout 2x per week

So far Im doing the boring but big method since I dont have much arm range

warm up 5x 10 @ 40%

5/3/1

5x10 @ 50-60%

Rack pulls 5x10

Lunges with 25lb dumbells 5x25

Back extensions 5x25

Leg curl for hams 3x failure

15min abs

I only do this once a week would 2 be ok? I do quad stuff 2x per week but its machines and crap… then W & F I do cardio mostly stair sprints so my leggs are pretty burned but its all I can do 4 now untill shoulder heals

587

I had a conversation with Jim today that was very helpful to me and produced some simple truths that others may benefit from:

I contacted Jim after a frustrating deadlift session (5/3/1+ week) in which I finished with 475x1, which felt very heavy. I was frustrated because I pulled 600 in December.

Jim told me I was putting too much pressure on myself, and reminded me that I peaked for that 600, and that it’s not something I should expect to be able to do on a regular basis. He reminded me that Andy Bolton, Konstantinos, etc aren’t crushing monstrous weights everyday. Especially being natural, I’m expecting too much too often- with nutrition and rest not being optimal.

Jim knows my wife is pregnant and having two kids of his own shared two things with me: 1) even if you don’t feel stressed out by it, you ARE! I do feel stressed, mostly about $, but I guess I was overlooking the toll the stress takes; 2) he had a theory that during pregnancy the males hormones will fluctuate to sort of match his female partner’s. While there isn’t any science behind this (that he or I know of) I can say with how I’ve been feeling, DAMN does this make sense.

Lastly, something he reminded me of, that I know he’s said before, but I guess over time wanting more and more I’ve just forgotten: he told me I should leave the gym feeling good, not trashed. I really made that my goal today, as I’ve been leaving the gym feeling trashed for a while now. Now, I didn’t break any world records today, but I got a good session in, and left the gym feeling physically good, which paid dividends mentally.

That’s all for now, thought some could find it helpful.

588

@ thehebrewhero - Thats quite a bit of deadlift type work. I certainly wouldn’t do it twice a week, even if I was a beginner. But the only way to find out for sure is to try it out and see what happens.

That was a really good post Dez. Thanks for that.

589

Currently thinking of how to program tricep assistance.
My question is would you go for a single in the asisstance work then drop to 3 sets of 3-5
OR do the 3-5 rep sets before trying a few singles?
Current set up:
Monday (MP):
MP as 5/3/1 + 2 sets of 50-60% for ~12 reps
Floor press with EZ bar with one set of chains added in, 2 warm ups then 4 work sets ~12

Thurday (BP):
BP 3/5/1 + a couple of singles on 3+ & 1+ weeks,
Lightened Bench (avg bands) couple of warm ups then EITHER 3 sets 3-5 plus 2-3 single OR couple of warm ups then the single then th 3 sets 3-5.

Would you miss the single on the 5only week?

I feel I need to get used to feeling a heavy (for me) weight.

590

[quote]Boffin wrote:
Currently thinking of how to program tricep assistance.
My question is would you go for a single in the asisstance work then drop to 3 sets of 3-5
OR do the 3-5 rep sets before trying a few singles?
Current set up:
Monday (MP):
MP as 5/3/1 + 2 sets of 50-60% for ~12 reps
Floor press with EZ bar with one set of chains added in, 2 warm ups then 4 work sets ~12

Thurday (BP):
BP 3/5/1 + a couple of singles on 3+ & 1+ weeks,
Lightened Bench (avg bands) couple of warm ups then EITHER 3 sets 3-5 plus 2-3 single OR couple of warm ups then the single then th 3 sets 3-5.

Would you miss the single on the 5only week?

I feel I need to get used to feeling a heavy (for me) weight.

[/quote]

If you’re going for assistance work that is an exercise other than the main lift, I wouldn’t go for singles. Stick to the higher rep ranges 8-12. I would train the assistance exercises with a bodybuilding mindset.

591

Would apreciate some feedback. Not looking for a ‘‘Just do the program as written’’ or ‘‘it’s not 5/3/1 anymore’’ generic answer you see everywhere. I simply like the % use by 5/3/1 for the compound and that’s why I use it for compound.

What would I do would be a 3 way split over 5 day.

I would stick to 4-5 assistance exercice by day.
Would not put too much strain on the CNS cause I would train most of the time 4 times a week, sometimes 5.
Would to the 3 week over a period of 15 day, and would deload for 5 day, etc.

Deadlift 5/3/1 - Back, bicep and traps
Bench press 5/3/1 - AM : Chest and tricep PM: Shoulder
OFF
Squat 5/3/1 - Legs and core
OFF
Repeat

Why would I do that? If I don’t abuse the assistance work, I feel I would be ready to go again after 5 day. My lift are still low, (squat 305, deadlift 385, bench press 285) but my recover is not good enough for me to hit the same lift a 2-3 times a week.

592

[quote]shffl wrote:

[quote]Boffin wrote:
Currently thinking of how to program tricep assistance.
My question is would you go for a single in the asisstance work then drop to 3 sets of 3-5
OR do the 3-5 rep sets before trying a few singles?
Current set up:
Monday (MP):
MP as 5/3/1 + 2 sets of 50-60% for ~12 reps
Floor press with EZ bar with one set of chains added in, 2 warm ups then 4 work sets ~12

Thurday (BP):
BP 3/5/1 + a couple of singles on 3+ & 1+ weeks,
Lightened Bench (avg bands) couple of warm ups then EITHER 3 sets 3-5 plus 2-3 single OR couple of warm ups then the single then th 3 sets 3-5.

Would you miss the single on the 5only week?

I feel I need to get used to feeling a heavy (for me) weight.

[/quote]

If you’re going for assistance work that is an exercise other than the main lift, I wouldn’t go for singles. Stick to the higher rep ranges 8-12. I would train the assistance exercises with a bodybuilding mindset.
[/quote]
Thanks

593

[quote]GTFOmyPowerRack wrote:
Would apreciate some feedback. Not looking for a ‘‘Just do the program as written’’ or ‘‘it’s not 5/3/1 anymore’’ generic answer you see everywhere. I simply like the % use by 5/3/1 for the compound and that’s why I use it for compound.

What would I do would be a 3 way split over 5 day.

I would stick to 4-5 assistance exercice by day.
Would not put too much strain on the CNS cause I would train most of the time 4 times a week, sometimes 5.
Would to the 3 week over a period of 15 day, and would deload for 5 day, etc.

Deadlift 5/3/1 - Back, bicep and traps
Bench press 5/3/1 - AM : Chest and tricep PM: Shoulder
OFF
Squat 5/3/1 - Legs and core
OFF
Repeat

Why would I do that? If I don’t abuse the assistance work, I feel I would be ready to go again after 5 day. My lift are still low, (squat 305, deadlift 385, bench press 285) but my recover is not good enough for me to hit the same lift a 2-3 times a week.[/quote]

Since you don’t want to hear “just do the program” and other things that would be wise, I’ll tell you I don’t think your plan shows much thought as far as recovery is concerned, especially considering the fact that you mentioned you don’t recover well.

You’re Deadlifting on day one, let’s call it Monday, then turning around to deadlift again on day six, or Saturday. I don’t see this being enough recovery seeing as you will have squatted on day four, or Thursday.

Also, you say you’ll be able to do this because you’re “only” going to do 4-5 assistance lifts each day- that is actually on the higher end, volume wise.

Far be it for me to say you’re wrong on this, only you can determine that, but I don’t think it’s a good plan.

594

If you’re willing to shell for the 2nd edition of 5/3/1, there are many assistance templates in there that cover a wide range of frequencies. If you are committed to this frequency, what I would do is:

Day 1.
Bench - 5/3/1
Row
1-2 assistance lifts

Day 2.
Squat - 5/3/1
Deadlift - 5/3/1
1-2 assistance lifts

Day 3.
Off

Day 4.
Press - 5/3/1
Pullup
1-2 assistance lifts

Day 5.
Off

When you’re implementing a new plan, it’s always good to leave yourself room to add things in if you decide they’re needed. So I’d start with a minimum of assistance work, and add from there if necessary.

I’ll add that I don’t think this is ideal, and think you’d do better with each main lift once/week, with a closely related assistance lift done on another day (as demonstrated in the Simple Strength Template as laid out in the 2nd edition).

595

Here’s my current 5/3/1 schedule

Monday

Main Lift:
-OHP

Assistance:
-Dips x75-100
-close grip bench
-Seated DB OHP
-face pulls

Tuesday

Main Lift:
-DeadLift

Assistance:
-Pullups (Go by feel but I try to do atleast 50)
-Kroc rows
-abs

Thursday

Main Lift:
-Bench press

Assistance:
-dips
-face pulls
-Incline Bench press
-JM press

Friday

Main Lift:
Squat

Assistance:
-Good Mornings
-Straight leg deadlift
-lunges
-abs

This is the template I’ve been loosely following. I’ve been getting stronger every cycle( still weak but gotta start somewhere). I compete in my first meet in march and I’m super excited about that.

596

[quote]dez6485 wrote:
I had a conversation with Jim today that was very helpful to me and produced some simple truths that others may benefit from:

I contacted Jim after a frustrating deadlift session (5/3/1+ week) in which I finished with 475x1, which felt very heavy. I was frustrated because I pulled 600 in December.

Jim told me I was putting too much pressure on myself, and reminded me that I peaked for that 600, and that it’s not something I should expect to be able to do on a regular basis. He reminded me that Andy Bolton, Konstantinos, etc aren’t crushing monstrous weights everyday. Especially being natural, I’m expecting too much too often- with nutrition and rest not being optimal.

Jim knows my wife is pregnant and having two kids of his own shared two things with me: 1) even if you don’t feel stressed out by it, you ARE! I do feel stressed, mostly about $, but I guess I was overlooking the toll the stress takes; 2) he had a theory that during pregnancy the males hormones will fluctuate to sort of match his female partner’s. While there isn’t any science behind this (that he or I know of) I can say with how I’ve been feeling, DAMN does this make sense.

Lastly, something he reminded me of, that I know he’s said before, but I guess over time wanting more and more I’ve just forgotten: he told me I should leave the gym feeling good, not trashed. I really made that my goal today, as I’ve been leaving the gym feeling trashed for a while now. Now, I didn’t break any world records today, but I got a good session in, and left the gym feeling physically good, which paid dividends mentally.

That’s all for now, thought some could find it helpful.[/quote]

Thanks Matt - I have some more ideas for your training. Email me whenever you are ready and thanks for the support.

597

[quote]w-a-t-p wrote:
I’ve read a bit here about Subbing Overhead Press for Push Press so I’m here to ask my question regarding my situation.

Before I started my current 531 Cycles, I had a 1rm of 70kg on Military Press and I done that 1rm in two different sessions a week part so it was true.

5 Cycles in, I’m struggling and stalling on only Military Press. By means of not even hitting my prescribed reps.

Here is the 3rd set of my Cycles.

Cycle 1…
Week 1 (3x5): 12 reps @ 52.5kg
Week 2 (3x3: 5 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 5 reps @ 60kg

Cycle 2…
Week 1 (3x5): 9 reps @ 55kg
Week 2 (3x3: 6 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 5 reps @ 62.5kg

Cycle 3…
Week 1 (3x5): 5 reps @ 57.5kg
Week 2 (3x3: 6 reps @ 60kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 3 reps @ 65kg

Cycle 4…
Week 1 (3x5): 4 reps @ 60kg
Week 2 (3x3: 5 Reps @ 62.5kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 3 reps @ 67.5kg

Cycle 5…
Week 1 (3x5): 2 reps @ 60kg
Week 2 (3x3: 2 Reps @ 65kg
Week 3 (5/3/1: 1 reps @ 67.5kg

I feel that within the 60kg range I struggle to rep out the weight. Today Cycle 5, Week 3, as you can see I done 1 rep of 67.5kg, which isn’t very much off my original 1 rep of 70kg at the start.

My other lifts (Bench, Squat) are going fine at the moment. I remember though in my last 531 last year, my bench wasn’t doing much but my Military was going up. This time round it feels the opposite.

What do you think and what do you suggest ???

I was thinking about continuing through the planned cycles but Push Pressing instead of Military Pressing. However, Push Pressing for 531 and Military Pressing still for BBB 5x10 Sets.

Thanks for your help!!!
[/quote]

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:
Hey dude how’s it going.

I don’t think you should ditch the Military Press as a main lift.

  1. What routine were you following in the lead-up to your 70kg Military Presses?
  2. What assistance template do you currently run, particularly overhead assistance?
  3. What has your bodyweight been doing through this cycle?
  4. Have you run the deloads as required?
  5. Do you compete in any other sport or training heavily involving the shoulders?
    [/quote]

Hey panzerfaust,

**** 1. What routine were you following in the lead-up to your 70kg Military Presses?

  • I was doing 5/3/1 Boring But Big again, But I had a break in-between and was just maintaining strength during that busy break.

**** 2. What assistance template do you currently run, particularly overhead assistance?

  • Boring But Big. I will do Single Arm Dumbbell Press (Feet Together) 5x10 after my main Military Press.

Military Press - 5/3/1
Single Arm Dumbbell Press - 5x10
(50 Chin ups between sets)
Kroc Rows - 3x20
Face Pull - 3x10-20

**** 3. What has your bodyweight been doing through this cycle?

I started around 175lbs and I am around 188lbs now, larger body-fat percentage though too mind.

**** 4. Have you run the deloads as required?

Yes, I have followed de-load weeks to a T. 3 Weeks on, 1 Week de-loading for the start.

**** 5. Do you compete in any other sport or training heavily involving the shoulders?[/quote]

  • No. No other sports nor physical demanding job.

My other lifts are doing fine. I had a hip injury at the start of the cycles so I had to ease off lower body a fair bit, but for the last 3 cycles I’ve been doing lower fine and progressing. - However early light days I guess with that.

In relation to bench press, my max was 90kg at the start. Amd today during my 3rd week of cycle 5, I done 87.5kg for 6 Reps with no spot.

598

Just wanted to share my results so far.
I am finishing Cycle 5.

I just repped my original Deadlift max (that is my real max at the start of the program) 3 times!
And Oh yeah, my original max was done with straps and I almost passed out.
This time no wraps, no straps, nor belt. Just me, some chalk, and the bar. Thought about going for a 4th rep but decided not to push it and live another day.

The program plain works. Just be consistent AND patient since the progress is sloooow - but steady.

599

Hi Jim,

I’m gonna start your 531 for Powerlifting soon and I was slightly unclear on the progression cycle by cycle. Do you recalculate your maxes each time?

Cheers!

600

Take 90% of your original max. That is the max you base your training weights on for cycle 1. After cycle 1 add 5lbs to upper body maxes and 10lbs for sq and deadlift.

So, if your deadlift max is 500 when you start the program, you take 90% of that, or 450.

Calculate your training weights for the cycle on 450. Next cycle, base them on 460…and so forth. Get it?