Wendler's 5/3/1 Program - Part 5

Training Powerlifting
401

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
I have a problem with my bench. Two cycles ago I hit 265 for a single on my 5/3/1+ day. I kind of struggled with that rep so I decided to reset next cycle. Since then my strength in the bench feels to be diminishing. Today I only hit 235 for 3 on 3/3/3+ day and it didn’t feel solid. Does this shit just happen from time to time and then the strength comes back? After today I’m a bit frustrated and I feel like just resetting again based on the 3 reps today.

  • Diet: I’m very confident in my diet right now as I’ve hired John Meadows to help; I’ve never felt better and never had such good energy in the gym before. I don’t think this is an issue.
  • Programming: I did drop the Floor Press from my chest day because I feel like it aggravates my shoulder for some reason. I don’t know how that would lead to such a decrease in bench strength though. In place of Floor Presses I just bench press per JW’s One Big Assistance lifts from the second edition ebook. Previously I was doing 3sets of 5 with the FP.
  • Right shoulder pain: I do experience some shoulder pain but I don’t feel that it limits my strength, just kind of a nagging pain. I started doing band pull-aparts during my warm-up and in-between worksets and it really seems to help. I also extend my warm-up sets by 2 just to warm it up a little. I was also doing DB bench for a while but that seemed to aggravate my shoulder a bit so I’ve dropped it.
  • Triceps: I do Skull Crushers for 5sets of 10 and the Rope Extensions for 5 sets of 10. I can’t do dips anymore. Any suggestions here?
  • Technique: I’ve watched Dave Tate’s videos on benching and practice it the best I can. There’s always room for improvement but I believe my bench form is decent at least.

Any feedback would be great.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity how long did it take you to hit 265 using 5/3/1 and what was your best bench single when you started the program?

With the right shoulder pain, is it the proximal bicep tendon attachment (quite localised pain, “front-centre” of shoulder, the pain likely running down a bit if you trace it with your fingers) which is causing you issues?

What is your pulling volume like? If you could list all the upper pulling and pushing you do that may be useful information.

402

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
I have a problem with my bench. Two cycles ago I hit 265 for a single on my 5/3/1+ day. I kind of struggled with that rep so I decided to reset next cycle. Since then my strength in the bench feels to be diminishing. Today I only hit 235 for 3 on 3/3/3+ day and it didn’t feel solid. Does this shit just happen from time to time and then the strength comes back? After today I’m a bit frustrated and I feel like just resetting again based on the 3 reps today.

  • Diet: I’m very confident in my diet right now as I’ve hired John Meadows to help; I’ve never felt better and never had such good energy in the gym before. I don’t think this is an issue.
  • Programming: I did drop the Floor Press from my chest day because I feel like it aggravates my shoulder for some reason. I don’t know how that would lead to such a decrease in bench strength though. In place of Floor Presses I just bench press per JW’s One Big Assistance lifts from the second edition ebook. Previously I was doing 3sets of 5 with the FP.
  • Right shoulder pain: I do experience some shoulder pain but I don’t feel that it limits my strength, just kind of a nagging pain. I started doing band pull-aparts during my warm-up and in-between worksets and it really seems to help. I also extend my warm-up sets by 2 just to warm it up a little. I was also doing DB bench for a while but that seemed to aggravate my shoulder a bit so I’ve dropped it.
  • Triceps: I do Skull Crushers for 5sets of 10 and the Rope Extensions for 5 sets of 10. I can’t do dips anymore. Any suggestions here?
  • Technique: I’ve watched Dave Tate’s videos on benching and practice it the best I can. There’s always room for improvement but I believe my bench form is decent at least.

Any feedback would be great.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity how long did it take you to hit 265 using 5/3/1 and what was your best bench single when you started the program?

With the right shoulder pain, is it the proximal bicep tendon attachment (quite localised pain, “front-centre” of shoulder, the pain likely running down a bit if you trace it with your fingers) which is causing you issues?

What is your pulling volume like? If you could list all the upper pulling and pushing you do that may be useful information.[/quote]

Best before 5/3/1, 240lbs. I started 5/3/1 in June or July 2011.

I’d say the pain feels to be more located on the outter edge of my front deltoid and into my lateral deltoid.

Pulling volume

  • I do pull-ups in at least two to three sessions a week following these guidelines, Time to Up Your Pull-Ups
  • I prefer body-part splits so I have a back session where I do, BB Rows (5/3/1), BB Rows (Big Assistance method), Face Pulls. I stopped doing Lat Pulldowns, would rather just do chin-ups.
  • Deadlifting session is, Sumo DL 5/3/1, Top-Half DL, (usually do chin-ups),
  • Romanian DL’s on Squat day
    Pressing Days: Chest (Bench 5/3/1, Bench (ONe Big Assistance), Shoulders (OHP 5/3/1, OHP (One Big Assistance), Squat (Back Squat 5/3/1, Back Squat (One Big Assitance)
403

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
I have a problem with my bench. Two cycles ago I hit 265 for a single on my 5/3/1+ day. I kind of struggled with that rep so I decided to reset next cycle. Since then my strength in the bench feels to be diminishing. Today I only hit 235 for 3 on 3/3/3+ day and it didn’t feel solid. Does this shit just happen from time to time and then the strength comes back? After today I’m a bit frustrated and I feel like just resetting again based on the 3 reps today.

  • Diet: I’m very confident in my diet right now as I’ve hired John Meadows to help; I’ve never felt better and never had such good energy in the gym before. I don’t think this is an issue.
  • Programming: I did drop the Floor Press from my chest day because I feel like it aggravates my shoulder for some reason. I don’t know how that would lead to such a decrease in bench strength though. In place of Floor Presses I just bench press per JW’s One Big Assistance lifts from the second edition ebook. Previously I was doing 3sets of 5 with the FP.
  • Right shoulder pain: I do experience some shoulder pain but I don’t feel that it limits my strength, just kind of a nagging pain. I started doing band pull-aparts during my warm-up and in-between worksets and it really seems to help. I also extend my warm-up sets by 2 just to warm it up a little. I was also doing DB bench for a while but that seemed to aggravate my shoulder a bit so I’ve dropped it.
  • Triceps: I do Skull Crushers for 5sets of 10 and the Rope Extensions for 5 sets of 10. I can’t do dips anymore. Any suggestions here?
  • Technique: I’ve watched Dave Tate’s videos on benching and practice it the best I can. There’s always room for improvement but I believe my bench form is decent at least.

Any feedback would be great.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity how long did it take you to hit 265 using 5/3/1 and what was your best bench single when you started the program?

With the right shoulder pain, is it the proximal bicep tendon attachment (quite localised pain, “front-centre” of shoulder, the pain likely running down a bit if you trace it with your fingers) which is causing you issues?

What is your pulling volume like? If you could list all the upper pulling and pushing you do that may be useful information.[/quote]

Best before 5/3/1, 240lbs. I started 5/3/1 in June or July 2011.

I’d say the pain feels to be more located on the outter edge of my front deltoid and into my lateral deltoid.

Pulling volume

  • I do pull-ups in at least two to three sessions a week following these guidelines, Time to Up Your Pull-Ups
  • I prefer body-part splits so I have a back session where I do, BB Rows (5/3/1), BB Rows (Big Assistance method), Face Pulls. I stopped doing Lat Pulldowns, would rather just do chin-ups.
  • Deadlifting session is, Sumo DL 5/3/1, Top-Half DL, (usually do chin-ups),
  • Romanian DL’s on Squat day
    Pressing Days: Chest (Bench 5/3/1, Bench (ONe Big Assistance), Shoulders (OHP 5/3/1, OHP (One Big Assistance), Squat (Back Squat 5/3/1, Back Squat (One Big Assitance)

[/quote]

Could well be the biceps long head tendon attachment then.

I’m no expert lifter, but I do know my pressing progress fluctuated wildly until I sorted out my shoulder joint issues.

So my only advice would be, if you are experiencing regression with pressing and have a noted shoulder pain - get it check out by a pro, diagnosed and treated accordingly.

As advised by Wendler for people with shoulder pain, doing sets of chins or rows between EVERY single upper body pushing exercise (as well as doing weighted chins and DB rows as part of my program) has really helped fix my shoulder issues and get my pressing moving again.

If by pull ups you mean “overhand” grip, I’d really try smashing the chin ups instead as these are fantastic for bicep tendon strength and shoulder/arm strength in general.

Other users may have more technical advice…
good luck

404

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
I have a problem with my bench. Two cycles ago I hit 265 for a single on my 5/3/1+ day. I kind of struggled with that rep so I decided to reset next cycle. Since then my strength in the bench feels to be diminishing. Today I only hit 235 for 3 on 3/3/3+ day and it didn’t feel solid. Does this shit just happen from time to time and then the strength comes back? After today I’m a bit frustrated and I feel like just resetting again based on the 3 reps today.

  • Diet: I’m very confident in my diet right now as I’ve hired John Meadows to help; I’ve never felt better and never had such good energy in the gym before. I don’t think this is an issue.
  • Programming: I did drop the Floor Press from my chest day because I feel like it aggravates my shoulder for some reason. I don’t know how that would lead to such a decrease in bench strength though. In place of Floor Presses I just bench press per JW’s One Big Assistance lifts from the second edition ebook. Previously I was doing 3sets of 5 with the FP.
  • Right shoulder pain: I do experience some shoulder pain but I don’t feel that it limits my strength, just kind of a nagging pain. I started doing band pull-aparts during my warm-up and in-between worksets and it really seems to help. I also extend my warm-up sets by 2 just to warm it up a little. I was also doing DB bench for a while but that seemed to aggravate my shoulder a bit so I’ve dropped it.
  • Triceps: I do Skull Crushers for 5sets of 10 and the Rope Extensions for 5 sets of 10. I can’t do dips anymore. Any suggestions here?
  • Technique: I’ve watched Dave Tate’s videos on benching and practice it the best I can. There’s always room for improvement but I believe my bench form is decent at least.

Any feedback would be great.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity how long did it take you to hit 265 using 5/3/1 and what was your best bench single when you started the program?

With the right shoulder pain, is it the proximal bicep tendon attachment (quite localised pain, “front-centre” of shoulder, the pain likely running down a bit if you trace it with your fingers) which is causing you issues?

What is your pulling volume like? If you could list all the upper pulling and pushing you do that may be useful information.[/quote]

Best before 5/3/1, 240lbs. I started 5/3/1 in June or July 2011.

I’d say the pain feels to be more located on the outter edge of my front deltoid and into my lateral deltoid.

Pulling volume

  • I do pull-ups in at least two to three sessions a week following these guidelines, Time to Up Your Pull-Ups
  • I prefer body-part splits so I have a back session where I do, BB Rows (5/3/1), BB Rows (Big Assistance method), Face Pulls. I stopped doing Lat Pulldowns, would rather just do chin-ups.
  • Deadlifting session is, Sumo DL 5/3/1, Top-Half DL, (usually do chin-ups),
  • Romanian DL’s on Squat day
    Pressing Days: Chest (Bench 5/3/1, Bench (ONe Big Assistance), Shoulders (OHP 5/3/1, OHP (One Big Assistance), Squat (Back Squat 5/3/1, Back Squat (One Big Assitance)

[/quote]

Could well be the biceps long head tendon attachment then.

I’m no expert lifter, but I do know my pressing progress fluctuated wildly until I sorted out my shoulder joint issues.

So my only advice would be, if you are experiencing regression with pressing and have a noted shoulder pain - get it check out by a pro, diagnosed and treated accordingly.

As advised by Wendler for people with shoulder pain, doing sets of chins or rows between EVERY single upper body pushing exercise (as well as doing weighted chins and DB rows as part of my program) has really helped fix my shoulder issues and get my pressing moving again.

If by pull ups you mean “overhand” grip, I’d really try smashing the chin ups instead as these are fantastic for bicep tendon strength and shoulder/arm strength in general.

Other users may have more technical advice…
good luck[/quote]

Yeah, I’ve been contemplating going to see our Orthopedist; he took care of my back problem too. I’ve often wondered if doing bicep work has been irritating that too and I think you’re onto something.

Thanks for the feedback! - J

405

If you believe it’s the proximal biceps tendon, do some curls. There’s nothing wrong with direct bicep work, and while indirect work (rows, chins, etc) certainly helps, doing curls once a week might help out a bit.

406

I received a good recommendation the other day from an accomplished lifter and he indicated that I need to be doing some dynamic chest work at about 60% of my training max for about 8sets of 3reps.

It sounds like good advice and I’ve seen Dave Tate among others mention dynamic work but where the heck do you fit it in with 5/3/1? I was thinking that perhaps on Bench Press day that instead of doing the One Big Assistance lift after the 5/3/1 lift that I could sub in the dynamic work? Thoughts?

407

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
I received a good recommendation the other day from an accomplished lifter and he indicated that I need to be doing some dynamic chest work at about 60% of my training max for about 8sets of 3reps.[/quote]

It fits best on a conjugate system DE day. Many will tell you (including JW) that it doesn’t really fit in 5/3/1.

408

Yeah it’s a different approach to 5/3/1. I’d sort that shoulder pain before worrying about dynamic effort, just my opinion =). There’s obviously an issue there, and it will come back to haunt you otherwise

409

Cool, thanks for the feedback.

410

Hello, I have a question related to a botched squat day. Please see this morning’s work:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_senior/deadkongs_latest_journal?id=4659878&pageNo=5

Because of an equipment issue, i ended up on the final heaviest set not going above 5 reps, even though I am pretty sure I could have got 8 or 9 out of this set. I am deloading starting Saturday and have this question.

Might I wait until Friday (I squatted already this morning), do a thorough warmup, skip the 5/3 sets and go for all glory on the main set? It will be 2 days to let today recover, but since Saturday begins the deload (and sunday is next deadlift work) I wonder if this is worthwhile.

thanks to those who answer.

411

Deadkong, no offense intended but I’d seriously look into getting yourself a squat rack of some form; a power cage ideally.

To answer your question, if your lower back felt a “bit off” after your failed set, I wouldn’t worry about putting an extra heavy session in before deload. “5” on your “1” set is pretty respectable anyway!

412

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:
“5” on your “1” set is pretty respectable anyway![/quote]

I was thinking about this thing for a while. The way the routine is built, all percentages are based on 90% of your 1RMs… which would be a 3RM or 4RM or something between the two. Ideally, at 95% of the 90% 1RM, i.e. 95% of your 4RM, you should be able to do about 4 or 5 reps.

@whoever have gone through this routine for a while…
Do you stick to the ‘10lb on squat, deadlift and 5lb on press, bench press’? Or do you adjust the increment in your 1RM calculations based on how you have done on your previous cycle? When do you think that you need to increase or decrease the weight you add after each cycle?

413

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:
Deadkong, no offense intended but I’d seriously look into getting yourself a squat rack of some form; a power cage ideally.

To answer your question, if your lower back felt a “bit off” after your failed set, I wouldn’t worry about putting an extra heavy session in before deload. “5” on your “1” set is pretty respectable anyway![/quote]

I am thinking of getting something better today.

The point is, I calculated a much better one rep max based on achievement last week, so I really was expecting to get 8 or so with Wednesday’s work. I have learned earlier in this thread to expect higher reps for last set, and that was what turned my progress around from being stalled.

414

Hi, I’m going to start doing said program with the big assistance lifts template and I have a small problem with the assistance lift for squats.
I don’t have access to safety bar or a proper box for box squats. On top of these I’m a novice lifter and don’t know how to do front squats. I’m thinking of just doing normal squats after deadlifts. Could I do this or is there something I’m missing? Squat is my weakest lift so this might give it a boost. I’d use lower 1RM than for 5/3/1 squats since I’d do it after deadlifting.

415

[quote]superjuho wrote:
Hi, I’m going to start doing said program with the big assistance lifts template and I have a small problem with the assistance lift for squats.
I don’t have access to safety bar or a proper box for box squats. On top of these I’m a novice lifter and don’t know how to do front squats. I’m thinking of just doing normal squats after deadlifts. Could I do this or is there something I’m missing? Squat is my weakest lift so this might give it a boost. I’d use lower 1RM than for 5/3/1 squats since I’d do it after deadlifting. [/quote]

You could do paused squats, meaning you pause at the bottom of the lift. Look up videos to learn how to front squat.

416

[quote]v.sabarish wrote:

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:
“5” on your “1” set is pretty respectable anyway![/quote]

I was thinking about this thing for a while. The way the routine is built, all percentages are based on 90% of your 1RMs… which would be a 3RM or 4RM or something between the two. Ideally, at 95% of the 90% 1RM, i.e. 95% of your 4RM, you should be able to do about 4 or 5 reps.

@whoever have gone through this routine for a while…
Do you stick to the ‘10lb on squat, deadlift and 5lb on press, bench press’? Or do you adjust the increment in your 1RM calculations based on how you have done on your previous cycle? When do you think that you need to increase or decrease the weight you add after each cycle?[/quote]

I’m on my 8th cycle of some form of 5/3/1 now. I’ve used the 10lb/5lb increases consistently. One time I got cocky and increased my OHP by more than the designated amount and stalled quickly.

It’s fine to re-test your “TRUE” 1rm occasionally and re-calc based on this.

417

[quote]DeadKong wrote:

[quote]panzerfaust wrote:
Deadkong, no offense intended but I’d seriously look into getting yourself a squat rack of some form; a power cage ideally.

To answer your question, if your lower back felt a “bit off” after your failed set, I wouldn’t worry about putting an extra heavy session in before deload. “5” on your “1” set is pretty respectable anyway![/quote]

I am thinking of getting something better today.

The point is, I calculated a much better one rep max based on achievement last week, so I really was expecting to get 8 or so with Wednesday’s work. I have learned earlier in this thread to expect higher reps for last set, and that was what turned my progress around from being stalled.[/quote]
Good stuff man. Upgrading from a shitty Marcy rack to a Powertec cage was the best thing I ever did for my lifts.

TBH, don’t sweat on the predicted 1RMs from week to week. Mine fluctuate wildly from week to week, but I always make overall gains every cycle.

In the big scheme of things, getting 3 reps less than you expected on one particular training day really means nothing, it’s just a bit of an ego blow. Just go hard and smash it next time you do that lift.

418

Hi, I have just started 531 with the Simplest Strength Template in v2 of the book.
I do not have much equipment, so can anyone suggest some substitutions for the 2nd pressing movement. I am doing close grip bench on Press day, but I do not have an incline bench, nor any of the other bars Wendler suggests.

Also, what are good assistance exercises for the Hamstrings, Lower Back, Abs 3x10-20 to complement deadlift/front squat one deadlift day and squat/trap bar deadlift on squat day?

Thanks

419

fluky - either do more OHP, or floor press. Good mornings are the answer to your second question

420

Looking for some critique on my setup.

Chins between all big pressing movements

Tuesday:
5/3/1 bench
5x10-20 incline press
5x10-20 dumbbell rows
5x10-20 tricep pushdowns

Wednesday:
5/3/1 deadlifts
5x10-20 hack squats
5x10-20 lying leg curl
5x10-20 weighted situps

Thursday:
Light MAF complex using
Deadlift-power clean-front squat-push press-back squat
Looking for advice specifically on complexes

Friday:
5/3/1 standing press
5x10-20 dips
5x10-20 dumbbell rows
5x10-20 tricep pushdowns

Saturday:
5/3/1 power-clean
5/3/1 back squat
5x10-20 lunges
5x10-20 back raises
5x10-20 weighted situps

Currently working on adding some intense complexes to schedule because I don’t have a prowler, sled or hills available after workouts. Not sure where, when and how to add them in.