BJack, you said the every other day approach worked well with GVT, so since I am doing the BBB template it sounds like a good idea. I was thinking about doing conditioning type movements corresponding to what was worked the day before (would help to get the blood flowing and help with DOMS) ie sledge swings or heavy bag work after upper body, and sled pulls/drags, kettlebell swings (or as I heard Jim calls em expensive swings), or sprints for lower body.
I tried doing conditoning 2-3 days a week on that split, but it quickly turned to 1 or zero. I couldn’t keep up with the amount of food I needed to eat while doing that and it definitely hurt my gains. And the sledge swings annihilated my rear delts every time, had DOMS for at least 2-3 days, so it kept me from being 100% on my upper body days. I’m just sticking to heavy bag or a 20-30 minute run once a week on the weekends now.
Even though I wish that Jim would tell how he would modify 5/3/1 for beginners, I have to say 5/3/1 works as advertised for those who are new to barbell lifting. This is how my Estimated 1RM has progressed. Other than fooling around retesting my DL and BP and OHP on the 1st cycle, I find excellent progress doing it exactly as written.
I’m so happy with it that I’ve promoted it to my friends who are also now using it, and we’ve all never touched a barbell before. I did fool around with barbell lifting a month prior to stumbling upon the 5/3/1 article on T-Nation. My dad’s credit card was definitely well used in buying the manual.
[quote]anakayub wrote:
Even though I wish that Jim would tell how he would modify 5/3/1 for beginners, I have to say 5/3/1 works as advertised for those who are new to barbell lifting. This is how my Estimated 1RM has progressed. Other than fooling around retesting my DL and BP and OHP on the 1st cycle, I find excellent progress doing it exactly as written.
I’m so happy with it that I’ve promoted it to my friends who are also now using it, and we’ve all never touched a barbell before. I did fool around with barbell lifting a month prior to stumbling upon the 5/3/1 article on T-Nation. My dad’s credit card was definitely well used in buying the manual.[/quote]
Congrats on the progress and I foresee it continuing for a long time with this program. What assistance work did you do? I tend to suspect that for total beginners the Boring But Big template is generally the way to go because:
- they need form practice,
- they need to get bigger,
- it may help to limit the number of exercises you are trying to learn at the same time.
It is easier to focus on getting really solid form on just Press, Deadlift, Bench and Squat rather than those and, say, good mornings, sumo deadlift, Romanian deadlift, dips (as your form will change the emphasis on pecs or tris), every lunge variation, power cleans, GHR… Better to just keep it simple.
4) they will not be as bored with it as someone who has been doing the main lifts for years.
What do other people (hopefully including Jim) think about how 5/3/1 should be used specifically by beginners?
[quote]anakayub wrote:
This is the same for my Front Squats and OHP.[/quote]
This is done with the spreadsheet previously poste here or another one?
Good stuff guys!
It’s always great reading what others have to say about certain methods/splits etc… I train primiarily Elite Level H.S, college and pro athletes… During their off-seasons I have found that by taking some of the methods/theories from the 5/3/1 and incorporating some of my own splits/accessory and recovery protocol, that my athlete’s have been seeing great gains, getting leaner, and are able to recover very quickly… Here is a basic split for one of my football groups…
Monday… Change of Direction work (low volume) Dyn lower/upper split… (Or Rep)
Tuesday… cardiac recovery/mitochondria/ ice bath/ restoration/massage
Wednesday… Acceleration work (low volume) Form Running + Main Upper Body Lift
Thursday… Same as Tuesday
Friday… Main Lower body lift + Conditioning… Prawler Push, Max tension 1on/1 off w/ 50% Tension…
Saturday… Massage/ restoration…
Sunday… OFF
Keep posting everyone, the more knowledge everyone can pass along, the more successful we will all become!
I would think that 5/3/1 should be much different for beginners. The only difference I see is the need to work on form/technique and starting with lower weights.
Yep, it was with the spreadsheet previously posted here, the Apple Numbers for 531, not Excel thread. A few dates were lost from my log, but basically most was there.
Actually I’m using more of a mix between triumvirate and periodization bible, mainly because before started with barbells I was familiar with DB work. One of my friends is using BBB cause he wanted to gain mass as a big priority along strength gains. My assistance work is simple and is mostly BW stuff when possible, the aim is to do as much as possible in a short amount of time.
DL - SLDL, dynamic front planks, T’s (last month was chinup + hold for time, just something different every cycle)
BP - Paused pushups, inverted rows, just added DB rows (following Harry Selkow’s pullup progression via Elite), barbell complexes for conditioning (Cosgrove’s evil 6)
Front Squat - Pistols, Pallof press, face pulls
OHP - Standing DB press, pullups, barbell complexes
I find that the key to good form is just practicing the groove (especially with an empty bar during deload weeks) with lots of cuing from each other. The more the cuing, the better the form gets, and the confidence there allows more reps. Doing Cosgrove’s evil 6 also helps as we get to practice the main lifts while doing the routine, except for benching. We don’t really go for so called “max sets”; we tend to choose how many reps in the last set to perform beforehand so that we don’t actually reach failure. And then as we’re more confident we try to push for more reps in a gradual fashion. My last sets have now consistently hovered at +4 every session; I choose 2 lifts to try to push more reps ie last week it was the bench and front squat in which I went for 11 reps on “5” week. It’s more mechanical, but takes the thinking out which a beginner always likes. And there is no problem with recovery at all (beginner gains probably) nor sets that went to true failure.
The only issue is that we are the ones who started with deadlifting and benching with a powerlifter style setup to our gym; everyone else are all using isolation-stuff bodybuilding and flared elbow benching. I do most of the reading and video watching and share them with training partners so that we all understand good form and can give cues to each other to maintain good form. Since then we’re now able to identify most flaws like back rounding/pelvic tucking, forward lean on the front squat, not enough elbow tucking/leg drive on the bench; so it’s pretty painful when we see some other gym members doing rounded back deadlifts for reps followed by seeing them holding their back afterwards. The gym is pretty small and everyone knows each other so we try to help them with easy cues if they’re the receptive type. There are no true veterans to learn from and everyone is just doing the best with what they are able to learn by themselves. In this case the Internet is a huge blessing, not only for learning, but for perspective as well.
Just to give you an idea of the type of gym we’re training at, my squats, deadlifts and OHP’s are already the top of the gym (not surprising for deadlifts); my bench is among the top of the gym, including those who bench more but with half reps. There are no true benchers who can bench 2 plates yet.
[quote]Doenitz79 wrote:
Anyone have problems going high reps(>5) on conventional deadlifts?
…[/quote]
Yes, I’m not fit enough! Really winded after doing 314lb (142.5kg) for a set of 11.
Guess I need conditioning.
[quote]Boffin wrote:
Doenitz79 wrote:
Anyone have problems going high reps(>5) on conventional deadlifts?
…
Yes, I’m not fit enough! Really winded after doing 314lb (142.5kg) for a set of 11.
Guess I need conditioning.[/quote]
I did 345x15 last night with a training max of 415 … it’s doable.
wow i was sick as a dog last week. thank god it was was my deload week. that worked out perfectly haha.
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
Boffin wrote:
Doenitz79 wrote:
Anyone have problems going high reps(>5) on conventional deadlifts?
…
Yes, I’m not fit enough! Really winded after doing 314lb (142.5kg) for a set of 11.
Guess I need conditioning.
I did 345x15 last night with a training max of 415 … it’s doable.[/quote]
I too did 345x13. 2 less reps. But still is doable. I agree with you. Just keep at it dude and your conditioning will get better every time.
If anything, I jump rope and farmers walks with 100+lb dumbells since my gym in Iraq doesn’t have anything else. Just make it happen, no matter how you do it, just get it done.
[quote]LeanCarlosBrown wrote:
TheDudeAbides wrote:
Boffin wrote:
Doenitz79 wrote:
Anyone have problems going high reps(>5) on conventional deadlifts?
…
Yes, I’m not fit enough! Really winded after doing 314lb (142.5kg) for a set of 11.
Guess I need conditioning.
I did 345x15 last night with a training max of 415 … it’s doable.
I too did 345x13. 2 less reps. But still is doable. I agree with you. Just keep at it dude and your conditioning will get better every time.
If anything, I jump rope and farmers walks with 100+lb dumbells since my gym in Iraq doesn’t have anything else. Just make it happen, no matter how you do it, just get it done.[/quote]
10+ deads are really, really fun. i like the BBB template, 5x10 OHP i find challenging (never done more than 5 reps a set before), had to cut down to 50%rm
[quote]anakayub wrote:
Even though I wish that Jim would tell how he would modify 5/3/1 for beginners, I have to say 5/3/1 works as advertised for those who are new to barbell lifting. This is how my Estimated 1RM has progressed. Other than fooling around retesting my DL and BP and OHP on the 1st cycle, I find excellent progress doing it exactly as written.
I’m so happy with it that I’ve promoted it to my friends who are also now using it, and we’ve all never touched a barbell before. I did fool around with barbell lifting a month prior to stumbling upon the 5/3/1 article on T-Nation. My dad’s credit card was definitely well used in buying the manual.[/quote]
For the record, I’ve posted the modification about 10 different times!
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
Boffin wrote:
Doenitz79 wrote:
Anyone have problems going high reps(>5) on conventional deadlifts?
…
Yes, I’m not fit enough! Really winded after doing 314lb (142.5kg) for a set of 11.
Guess I need conditioning.
I did 345x15 last night with a training max of 415 … it’s doable.[/quote]
I hit 350x12 last night and when I was heavier before my injury hit 415x11 it took awhile to get the endurance up (still needs to go up) Just got to get mentally tough and make sure to lift every rep the same. I get lazy sometimes on higher rep deads and stop dropping my hips every rep which wears me out prematurely.
guys, i havent been posting in here so much, going on 9 months of 5/3/1 though at this point.
my keyboard is F’d so most of my posting is in my log, “5/3/1 to Elite”- feel free to stop in and give comments, advice, etc. and please, nevermind the rants early on, i was stressing over some stupid shit…
[quote]dez6485 wrote:
guys, i havent been posting in here so much, going on 9 months of 5/3/1 though at this point.
my keyboard is F’d so most of my posting is in my log, “5/3/1 to Elite”- feel free to stop in and give comments, advice, etc. and please, nevermind the rants early on, i was stressing over some stupid shit…
[/quote]
Did you sell your bike yet?
[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:
dez6485 wrote:
guys, i havent been posting in here so much, going on 9 months of 5/3/1 though at this point.
my keyboard is F’d so most of my posting is in my log, “5/3/1 to Elite”- feel free to stop in and give comments, advice, etc. and please, nevermind the rants early on, i was stressing over some stupid shit…
Did you sell your bike yet?[/quote]
Yea man, sold it at the end of august. As of right now, still feeling good about it, although I imagine a '67-68 triumph bonneville or late '70’s shovel will make its way into my life somewhere down the line…
[quote]Jim Wendler wrote:
Thanks to everyone who came out to the seminar at Informed Performance in Ireland. I appreciate everyone that made an effort to come and all those who made me feel at home. I hope everyone came out with something that they can use and use TODAY in their training.
[/quote]
That’s upsetting