Hah, nice analogy. I’m doing the same thing lately. I basically ramp all the sets, but I’m about 1 rep short of failure on my last set. Got to remember to check my log book to increase the weight from week to week. There’s always a deload week so you might as well go hard.
I’m back with my favourite subject, overtraining, a few pages back I was bitchin about overtraining with 5/3/1. Basically I was hitting every session as physically hard as possible which I knew eventually would take its toll. So I got the master words from sir wendler himself to pick my battles in the gym. So after the deload week of my last cycle I was feeling really strong so i picked my first battle of my latest cycle with the bench. I broke my PR by a serious amount and felt really good until I tried squatting the next night and left the gym embaraseed. The subsequent week was equally as bad with every lift.
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach?
[quote]irishlifting wrote:
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach? [/quote]
What’s your assistance work look like? In my opinion, this is where people fuck up and overtrain, or underrecover, especially with squatting and pulling in the same week. That can take a real toll on your lower back.
I’m currently lifting 4 days a week, but it’s pretty much all big lifts and very little assistance work. (Then again, I run a real bastardized version of 531. I’m finally figuring out how to work strongman in there for me.) There’s nothing wrong with just getting in, hitting the prescribed lifts, and calling it a day. As long as you’re not doing that every day, you should still be gaining fine.
[quote]Sagat wrote:
m1sf1t
Thanks for convincing me to use chalk. Today i did deadlifts with it for the first time, and it really made that much difference. I realized that not only sometimes i ended a set because of grip, but i was also wasting energy in the earlier reps because the bar was sliping a little.
Last cycle i ended with 400x5, today i did 410x5 a lot easier, i stoped at 5 because my left leg was a little tight from hill sprints and i was afraid of pulling the hamstring but felt like i had 2 reps in the tank. I 'm confident i’ll hit some serious deadlift PRs next cycle. Thanks man.[/quote]
Attaboy!!
I know! I was just as surprised as you when I started using it, grip has not been an issue ever since and my entire focus is on pulling the damn weights, I’m glad man!
[quote]irishlifting wrote:
I’m back with my favourite subject, overtraining, a few pages back I was bitchin about overtraining with 5/3/1. Basically I was hitting every session as physically hard as possible which I knew eventually would take its toll. So I got the master words from sir wendler himself to pick my battles in the gym. So after the deload week of my last cycle I was feeling really strong so i picked my first battle of my latest cycle with the bench. I broke my PR by a serious amount and felt really good until I tried squatting the next night and left the gym embaraseed. The subsequent week was equally as bad with every lift.
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach? [/quote]
I’m going to 3x a week now. I was doing Mon-Front Squat, Tue-Military, Thur-Deads and Fri-Bench, it was working fine for squats and deads, but the upper body stuff the day after was suffering. I also train martial arts, so i think less can be more in my case. After a cycle or two i will see if it works for me.
[quote]conorh wrote:
Testy1 wrote:
pepperman wrote:
Could someone please answer this question for me. I’ve read the book twice and have been using the program for 7 weeks. In he book it implies in the Q and A section that substitution exercises are permited such as military presses for push presses, regular deads for trap bar deads, etc. In certain threads (maybe people who haven’t bought the book) they go crazy with substitutions - I saw one guy say that he does 5/3/1 with face pulls and another who does 5/3/1 as his big exercise with pull throughs. What’s up with this? Is there a list of “permitted” replacement exercises or is it mainly common sense? I’m nearing a deload week and I would like to start back with db benches rather than BPs to give my shoulder a rest but I know the author says this is not recomended when he states paraphase - if you have to ask why you haven’t been lifting long. Just a little confused. Thanks
Not Jim but, facepulls and pullthroughs are assistance exercises and should be treated as such. The main lift should be a variation of the big lifts outlined.
These people tweaking it so drastically seem to not get this, so they obviously shouldn’t be tweaking the program. It seems a lot of guys want to get away from hard work but still say their working out. Just my opinion.
Someone does 5/3/1 with facepulls? That’s retarded. What’s the point of hitting a few singles in the facepull?[/quote]
Propel yourself forward and fly out of the gym I guess, considering the amount of weight you’d need to do a facepull single…
… as an assistance/corrective/musclebuilding exercise though, I personally think it’s a great option.
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Hey guys, how do you all progress with your assistance work? Add a small amount of weight every week? Or do you just let the four basic lifts take care of progressive overload?[/quote]
I usually add 1 rep to all sets, on the next wave I add one set, after deload I add weight. After a couple of cycles or so, I change the exercises for variation, except for my “core” assistance lifts, like Kroc rows, DB press, etc.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
irishlifting wrote:
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach?
What’s your assistance work look like? In my opinion, this is where people fuck up and overtrain, or underrecover, especially with squatting and pulling in the same week. That can take a real toll on your lower back.
I’m currently lifting 4 days a week, but it’s pretty much all big lifts and very little assistance work. (Then again, I run a real bastardized version of 531. I’m finally figuring out how to work strongman in there for me.) There’s nothing wrong with just getting in, hitting the prescribed lifts, and calling it a day. As long as you’re not doing that every day, you should still be gaining fine.[/quote]
I moved back onto a BBB setup, I wasnt trying to ego lift with big weight during my assistance work just trying to keep the rest periods relavtively short, to save me doing hill sprints for a while, and using weight that I could feel but not destroying my soul like the last set in the main movements.
I travel long distances everyday for my job which isnt exactly the best for recovery so figured this would be best resolved with the 3 day set up.
Has anyone used 5/3/1 as their ME work ala Defranco’s www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe-test/41-strength-training/139-helpful-box-squat-tip-a-incorporating-jim-wendlers-531-program-into-the-ws4sb-template.html ?
Seems like a pretty good idea, further thoughts?
[quote]malonetd wrote:
irishlifting wrote:
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach?
What’s your assistance work look like? In my opinion, this is where people fuck up and overtrain, or underrecover, especially with squatting and pulling in the same week. That can take a real toll on your lower back.
I’m currently lifting 4 days a week, but it’s pretty much all big lifts and very little assistance work. (Then again, I run a real bastardized version of 531. I’m finally figuring out how to work strongman in there for me.) There’s nothing wrong with just getting in, hitting the prescribed lifts, and calling it a day. As long as you’re not doing that every day, you should still be gaining fine.[/quote]
I hear ya on the pulling/squatting in the same week . even on the 3-a-week plan , my lower back wasnt recovering .pulling on Monday , and still having a toasted back on Friday doesnt sound like a recipe for success (for me anyway) .it felt like 2 ME lower worlouts in 1 week…haha .not sure how much age factors in with this , but at 45 (3 years training) I really dont want to fuck something up there . I feel like a pussy for doing it , but I removed deadlift from my second cycle . I’m looking at a meet late October , so I dont think experimenting with recovery at this stage is the best idea. I’ll be adding DLs back in again pre-meet , but on the same day as squats …and cycled slightly ahead to allow for no DL’ing the last 2 weeks .
I was only originally planning on 2 or 3 cycles with 531 , using it as a high-rep phase prior to an 8 week peaking cycle . I wanted a break from the low-rep WS style , and 531 looked great for that purpose . but now I’m torn between 531 and WS for after the meet . if I stay on 531 , I’ll probably need to add a couple more days between DL and squat as needed , and then make adjustments with assistance and/or recovery days from there . maybe the Do Nothing assistance approach is the right one for me…who knows . hell , I cant stay on 4-a-week WS for more than about 6 weeks either .
I’m actually considering switching back and forth between the 2 programs . something like WS from Novenber thru April and 531 May thru Oct . not sure how wise this is though .I completely enjoy both programs…there kind of polar opposites .
2 great programs , thats for sure
[quote]marlboroman wrote:
malonetd wrote:
irishlifting wrote:
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach?
What’s your assistance work look like? In my opinion, this is where people fuck up and overtrain, or underrecover, especially with squatting and pulling in the same week. That can take a real toll on your lower back.
I’m currently lifting 4 days a week, but it’s pretty much all big lifts and very little assistance work. (Then again, I run a real bastardized version of 531. I’m finally figuring out how to work strongman in there for me.) There’s nothing wrong with just getting in, hitting the prescribed lifts, and calling it a day. As long as you’re not doing that every day, you should still be gaining fine.
I hear ya on the pulling/squatting in the same week . even on the 3-a-week plan , my lower back wasnt recovering .pulling on Monday , and still having a toasted back on Friday doesnt sound like a recipe for success (for me anyway) .it felt like 2 ME lower worlouts in 1 week…haha .not sure how much age factors in with this , but at 45 (3 years training) I really dont want to fuck something up there . I feel like a pussy for doing it , but I removed deadlift from my second cycle . I’m looking at a meet late October , so I dont think experimenting with recovery at this stage is the best idea. I’ll be adding DLs back in again pre-meet , but on the same day as squats …and cycled slightly ahead to allow for no DL’ing the last 2 weeks .
I was only originally planning on 2 or 3 cycles with 531 , using it as a high-rep phase prior to an 8 week peaking cycle . I wanted a break from the low-rep WS style , and 531 looked great for that purpose . but now I’m torn between 531 and WS for after the meet . if I stay on 531 , I’ll probably need to add a couple more days between DL and squat as needed , and then make adjustments with assistance and/or recovery days from there . maybe the Do Nothing assistance approach is the right one for me…who knows . hell , I cant stay on 4-a-week WS for more than about 6 weeks either .
I’m actually considering switching back and forth between the 2 programs . something like WS from Novenber thru April and 531 May thru Oct . not sure how wise this is though .I completely enjoy both programs…there kind of polar opposites .
2 great programs , thats for sure
[/quote]
Just because there are 7 days in a calendar week doesn’t mean that there needs to be 7 days in your workout week. If you need an extra day or two between your squat and DL days, then just make it an 8 or 9 day wave.
gsherman…agree with that .
I started with an 8 day “training week” . MP/monday ; DL/wednesday ; B/friday ; S/monday .
I may go to a 9 or 10 day week in November if I stay on 531 .
[quote]marlboroman wrote:
gsherman…agree with that .
I started with an 8 day “training week” . MP/monday ; DL/wednesday ; B/friday ; S/monday .
I may go to a 9 or 10 day week in November if I stay on 531 .[/quote]
The thing I like about 5/3/1 is not feeling like you are slaved to get in a wave, microcycle, what-have-ya, in a week. It’s very liberating. I don’t feel like a slacker or a slug, I feel recovered and strong when I hit my core lifts.
[quote]irishlifting wrote:
I’m back with my favourite subject, overtraining, a few pages back I was bitchin about overtraining with 5/3/1. Basically I was hitting every session as physically hard as possible which I knew eventually would take its toll. So I got the master words from sir wendler himself to pick my battles in the gym. So after the deload week of my last cycle I was feeling really strong so i picked my first battle of my latest cycle with the bench. I broke my PR by a serious amount and felt really good until I tried squatting the next night and left the gym embaraseed. The subsequent week was equally as bad with every lift.
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach? [/quote]
Irish,
I’ve been lifting 4x week, but now rugby training has started and matches start soon so i need to rethink my training. These are the steps i am considering.
First: drop to 3x week gym training. When recovery becomes and issue i shall more to my second step and that will be to only chase PRs in the 555 and 531 weeks. In the 333 week i will get my 3 reps and call it a day. If that is still too much i’ll drop to 2x week. Just sharing my thoughts, hope it helps.
[quote]calebcaleb wrote:
Has anyone used 5/3/1 as their ME work ala Defranco’s www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe-test/41-strength-training/139-helpful-box-squat-tip-a-incorporating-jim-wendlers-531-program-into-the-ws4sb-template.html ?
Seems like a pretty good idea, further thoughts?[/quote]
Well, Defranco has a proven track record, so you probably can’t go wrong with any of Joe’s or Jim’s plans.
That being said, remember that Joe is providing weight training to athletes in other sports (i.e. need time for sport specific skill sessions). Unless I am mistaken Jim’s plan based around pure strength training and was not designed ‘specifically’ for a particular sport (i.e. hockey, football, basketball, etc.).
For certain, there are and will be many overlaps between the two (you still have to lift big to get stronger and bigger - no matter what the sport). At the end of the day, get the big lifts in ( have a plan - like 5/31/) and coordinate your assistance work to fit YOUR goals/schedule/recovery.
I would think the trade off is the more time spent on sports specific skill training/conditioning, the less time (or frequency) you have to devote to the Big 4 lifts.
[quote]pf wrote:
irishlifting wrote:
I’m back with my favourite subject, overtraining, a few pages back I was bitchin about overtraining with 5/3/1. Basically I was hitting every session as physically hard as possible which I knew eventually would take its toll. So I got the master words from sir wendler himself to pick my battles in the gym. So after the deload week of my last cycle I was feeling really strong so i picked my first battle of my latest cycle with the bench. I broke my PR by a serious amount and felt really good until I tried squatting the next night and left the gym embaraseed. The subsequent week was equally as bad with every lift.
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach?
Irish,
I’ve been lifting 4x week, but now rugby training has started and matches start soon so i need to rethink my training. These are the steps i am considering.
First: drop to 3x week gym training. When recovery becomes and issue i shall more to my second step and that will be to only chase PRs in the 555 and 531 weeks. In the 333 week i will get my 3 reps and call it a day. If that is still too much i’ll drop to 2x week. Just sharing my thoughts, hope it helps.
[/quote]
Thats one approach that could work well, I guess it all depends on the individual but if your in season with rugby, which isnt going to do wonders for your gym work how about picking your battles on how you feel. When I discussed overtraining a while back big Jim himself said that this was probably the best approach so you could have the best of both worlds if you’ve had a hard hitting rugby match I know the last thing I wanna do is try for a rep PR so how about going for reps on how yu feel and on bad days hitting your reps and getting the fuck outta the gym.
I’m moving to 3 days per week as of my next cycle so I should be able to attack each session as I have been doing in the past but I now know that if I dont feel up to it I can just hit the reps and head home to eat!
[quote]gsherman14 wrote:
marlboroman wrote:
malonetd wrote:
irishlifting wrote:
Which brings me to my question I have now decieded to follow the 3 days per week template to help my recovery and I was just wondering if any of you out there have have gone down a similar road, I’ve read a couple of Jim’s books which mention overtraining and turning to 3 days per week seems to have a positive reaction for most, any thoughts and/or experinces on this approach?
What’s your assistance work look like? In my opinion, this is where people fuck up and overtrain, or underrecover, especially with squatting and pulling in the same week. That can take a real toll on your lower back.
I’m currently lifting 4 days a week, but it’s pretty much all big lifts and very little assistance work. (Then again, I run a real bastardized version of 531. I’m finally figuring out how to work strongman in there for me.) There’s nothing wrong with just getting in, hitting the prescribed lifts, and calling it a day. As long as you’re not doing that every day, you should still be gaining fine.
I hear ya on the pulling/squatting in the same week . even on the 3-a-week plan , my lower back wasnt recovering .pulling on Monday , and still having a toasted back on Friday doesnt sound like a recipe for success (for me anyway) .it felt like 2 ME lower worlouts in 1 week…haha .not sure how much age factors in with this , but at 45 (3 years training) I really dont want to fuck something up there . I feel like a pussy for doing it , but I removed deadlift from my second cycle . I’m looking at a meet late October , so I dont think experimenting with recovery at this stage is the best idea. I’ll be adding DLs back in again pre-meet , but on the same day as squats …and cycled slightly ahead to allow for no DL’ing the last 2 weeks .
I was only originally planning on 2 or 3 cycles with 531 , using it as a high-rep phase prior to an 8 week peaking cycle . I wanted a break from the low-rep WS style , and 531 looked great for that purpose . but now I’m torn between 531 and WS for after the meet . if I stay on 531 , I’ll probably need to add a couple more days between DL and squat as needed , and then make adjustments with assistance and/or recovery days from there . maybe the Do Nothing assistance approach is the right one for me…who knows . hell , I cant stay on 4-a-week WS for more than about 6 weeks either .
I’m actually considering switching back and forth between the 2 programs . something like WS from Novenber thru April and 531 May thru Oct . not sure how wise this is though .I completely enjoy both programs…there kind of polar opposites .
2 great programs , thats for sure
Just because there are 7 days in a calendar week doesn’t mean that there needs to be 7 days in your workout week. If you need an extra day or two between your squat and DL days, then just make it an 8 or 9 day wave.
[/quote]
Short and to the point, no bull shit, just like 5/3/1 Sweet!
I’m currently deloading and looking to start 5/3/1 soon. I have one quick question though:
My DL 1RM is 350lbs, and 90% of that would be 315. However, my (estimated) 5RM is around 300lbs, since I haven’t done work in that low rep range lately.
Should I use a lower weight for my calculations? If I used 90% I’d probably get 3-4 reps on 3rd week, is that okay?
[quote]ssplit wrote:
I’m currently deloading and looking to start 5/3/1 soon. I have one quick question though:
My DL 1RM is 350lbs, and 90% of that would be 315. However, my (estimated) 5RM is around 300lbs, since I haven’t done work in that low rep range lately.
Should I use a lower weight for my calculations? If I used 90% I’d probably get 3-4 reps on 3rd week, is that okay?[/quote]
If you start by using a max of 315, your first wave weights will be, in order, 270, 285, 300. Therefore, you should get 4-6 on your 5/3/1 week if your 5RM is roughly 300.
[quote]NewWorldMan wrote:
calebcaleb wrote:
Has anyone used 5/3/1 as their ME work ala Defranco’s www.defrancostraining.com/ask-joe-test/41-strength-training/139-helpful-box-squat-tip-a-incorporating-jim-wendlers-531-program-into-the-ws4sb-template.html ?
Seems like a pretty good idea, further thoughts?
Well, Defranco has a proven track record, so you probably can’t go wrong with any of Joe’s or Jim’s plans.
That being said, remember that Joe is providing weight training to athletes in other sports (i.e. need time for sport specific skill sessions). Unless I am mistaken Jim’s plan based around pure strength training and was not designed ‘specifically’ for a particular sport (i.e. hockey, football, basketball, etc.).
For certain, there are and will be many overlaps between the two (you still have to lift big to get stronger and bigger - no matter what the sport). At the end of the day, get the big lifts in ( have a plan - like 5/31/) and coordinate your assistance work to fit YOUR goals/schedule/recovery.
I would think the trade off is the more time spent on sports specific skill training/conditioning, the less time (or frequency) you have to devote to the Big 4 lifts.[/quote]
If you use 5/3/1 for your main lifts, what you are really asking, boiled down, is how to setup your assistance work (e.g. something like DeFranco, BBB, Triumvirate). I think you have to change the question around and start by saying, what are my weakpoints. If your weakpoint is lack of mass, then BBB is a great option. If your weakpoints are specific to an activity you participate in, then look at DeFranco. If your weakpoint ist hat you don’t have a ton of time, look at triumvirate. Just keep in mind is all that matters is progression on your main lifts, the assistance is just that, assisting you in progressing on the main lifts.